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Kanos posted:I'd say that turning your enemy's entire nation or planet into a scorched, irradiated wasteland would accomplish the same propaganda result pretty effectively and for a lot less outlay. That clears up in a couple of centuries. Mobile Armors, on the other hand, can pop up at any time in any place and start the exact same thing all over again. The terror you generate will not fade into legend, but will always be fresh and immediate. Every MA has the seed of another Calamity War inside it, if left to its own devices for too long - you can’t just abandon it and come back to it later like an unexploded nuke.
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Jun 29, 2018 21:19
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Marx Headroom posted:Heck even if I was a supergenius guerilla building a mobile Dead Hand I'd probably use my huge brain to build in an Off switch for my friends just in case my weapon successfully destroys my enemies It only takes one friendless mad scientist or dysfunctional isolationist government to ruin the party for everyone. How many nukes would we need to completely annihilate Mars btw?
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Jun 29, 2018 21:23
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Marx Headroom posted:Heck even if I was a supergenius guerilla building a mobile Dead Hand I'd probably use my huge brain to build in an Off switch for my friends just in case my weapon successfully destroys my enemies
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Jun 29, 2018 21:27
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Kanos posted:This handwave doesn't really work in IBO because IBO spends a fair amount of time pissing on this trope. It also still depends entirely on that trope to exist and spends a lot of time using it. Just because it shows other things are effective as well doesn't mean that giant robots aren't effective. Especially in season one. You might as well make the argument that this line of reasoning doesn't really work with Mobile Suit Gundam and the franchise as an extension because one of the core concepts of 0079 as a show was to treat mecha in a more reasonable, practical manner than previous shows and depict them as regular machines than can run out of ammo or fuel, break down and get mass produced and used by both sides to fight a war rather than stave off alien invasion or whatever. tsob fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 21:42
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Using a giant robot to fight alien invasion is a more realistic use than as a regular combat machine, somehow
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Jun 29, 2018 22:53
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Sharkopath posted:Using a giant robot to fight alien invasion is a more realistic use than as a regular combat machine, somehow I wouldn't say either is notably realistic personally, but I also wouldn't hold Iron Blood Orphans up as a particularly reasonable depiction of them either simply because something other than a giant robot was useful. The Solar Ray and Colony Laser were a major factor in the resolution of 0079, arguably doing more in their singular appearance than the Gundam did all show; as was in-fighting in tearing Zeon apart, control of and use of Gryps II was the deciding factor in the resolution of Zeta, civil war destroyed Neo Zeon in ZZ, autonomous killing machines were a major threat in F91 and so on. Mobile suits not being the be all, end all isn't exactly common in the franchise, but it's also not unique. Nor is combat being brutal or ugly, unscrupulous people winning (Haman is probably the first to do that) or just about anything else you could say about IBO. tsob fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 23:08
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tsob posted:I wouldn't say either is notably realistic personally, but I also wouldn't hold Iron Blood Orphans up as a particularly reasonable depiction of them either simply because something other than a giant robot was useful. The Solar Ray and Colony Laser were a major factor in the resolution of 0079, arguably doing more in their singular appearance than the Gundam did all show; as was in-fighting in tearing Zeon apart, control of and use of Gryps II was the deciding factor in the resolution of Zeta, civil war destroyed Neo Zeon in ZZ, autonomous killing machines were a major threat in F91 and so on. Mobile suits not being the be all, end all isn't exactly common in the franchise, but it's also not unique. Nor is combat being brutal or ugly, unscrupulous people winning (Haman is probably the first to do that) or just about anything else you could say about IBO. Not to mention SEED and Destiny pulling out a new highly unethical WMD every couple of episodes
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Jun 29, 2018 23:14
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drrockso20 posted:Not to mention SEED and Destiny pulling out a new highly unethical WMD every couple of episodes The thing I sort of like about that is that most of SEED's WMDs aren't WMDs intentionally. They're poo poo that has a (somewhat) coherent purpose that are reconcepted into weapons by using them incorrectly. Cyclops was a heating system for example and (as loving stupid as it is) Genesis was designed as a propulsion system for space travel. SEED doesn't go far enough with it but I genuinely like the idea of a society so hosed up they're turning helpful things into killdozers.
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Jun 29, 2018 23:26
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ImpAtom posted:The thing I sort of like about that is that most of SEED's WMDs aren't WMDs intentionally. They're poo poo that has a (somewhat) coherent purpose that are reconcepted into weapons by using them incorrectly. Cyclops was a heating system for example and (as loving stupid as it is) Genesis was designed as a propulsion system for space travel. SEED doesn't go far enough with it but I genuinely like the idea of a society so hosed up they're turning helpful things into killdozers. The N-Jammers also seem like a good example of this.
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Jun 29, 2018 23:30
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Well, I mean...that's every weapon. Chemical projectiles like bullets are just an extension of rocketry, beams are an extension of lasers that can be used for numerous things in civilian matters. Any propulsion or energy system can be used as a weapon really.
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Jun 29, 2018 23:32
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Sharkopath posted:Using a giant robot to fight alien invasion is a more realistic use than as a regular combat machine, somehow Giant aliens, obvie. See also Macross and Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla.
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Jun 29, 2018 23:36
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sassassin posted:Do expensive audio productions make more money than animes? Almost certainly not, but they also don't cost nearly as much to make since there's no animation involved at all. Especially for something where the script already exists and just needs translation.
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Jun 30, 2018 01:02
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tsob posted:It also still depends entirely on that trope to exist and spends a lot of time using it. Just because it shows other things are effective as well doesn't mean that giant robots aren't effective. Especially in season one. You might as well make the argument that this line of reasoning doesn't really work with Mobile Suit Gundam and the franchise as an extension because one of the core concepts of 0079 as a show was to treat mecha in a more reasonable, practical manner than previous shows and depict them as regular machines than can run out of ammo or fuel, break down and get mass produced and used by both sides to fight a war rather than stave off alien invasion or whatever. IBO explicitly points out that a huge reason why mobile suits are regarded as such unstoppable titans of warfare is because of the romanticized Arthurian ideal of Gjallarhorn, where 7 legendary knights rode out and slew the dragons using their building-sized magic armor and secured a wondrous peace for everyone forever(under Gjallarhorn's boot). The following centuries of Gjallarhorn's dominance were down to them being the only ones with a powerful military left intact rather than because mobile suits are the most practical weapon. There's a very deliberate dichotomy between both McGillis and Rustal eagerly cracking open forbidden weapons to fuel their personal dreams for power. The head-in-the-clouds McGillis focuses all of his time and effort on developing a new form of Alaya-Vijnana and digging up The Legendary Mobile Suit and the practical Rustal opts to dig out the honorless and glory-less Dainsleifs, and the result is that Rustal slaughters McGillis's rebels and stops the unstoppable monsters by using practical weapons that render mobile suit superiority quite meaningless, like a peasant with a crossbow can kill a knight. Mobile Suits are presented in the show as the best way to kill Mobile Armors, and they might be very effective at shitstomping the defenseless and fighting other mobile suits, but the entire last quarter of the show marks them as pretty superfluous in human vs human combat if one of the participating sides is intelligent enough to not play by the established rules. That's what makes IBO very different from, say, the UC, where the mobile suit is never convincingly defeated as the be-all-end-all of combat.
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Jun 30, 2018 02:21
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Strangely, Dainsleifs basically serve the purpose of beam weapons for IBO, being a long ranged weapon that can potentially one-shot a warship while still being MS-portable. But IBO lacks one fundamental trait that prevented beams from eliminating MS in other Gundam settings. Sufficiently large numbers of average pilots with Dainsleifs can hit an ace in IBO, but a thousand GMs piloted by faceless grunts with beam rifles will never hit Char.
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Jun 30, 2018 03:04
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Darth Walrus posted:That clears up in a couple of centuries. Mobile Armors, on the other hand, can pop up at any time in any place and start the exact same thing all over again. The terror you generate will not fade into legend, but will always be fresh and immediate. Every MA has the seed of another Calamity War inside it, if left to its own devices for too long - you can’t just abandon it and come back to it later like an unexploded nuke. You're forgetting that Gundams were specifically built to fight Mobile Armors. That is not a check against a weapon of last resort, that is just a regular arms race. If it were possible to shut the MA's down, Gjallarhorn would have had the codes after the Calamity War one way or another.
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Jun 30, 2018 03:52
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You're forgetting that Gundams were specifically built to fight Mobile Armors. That is not a check against a weapon of last resort, that is just a regular arms race. Wasn't there also some tidbit about the Mobile Armor waking up specifically because Iok brought mobile suits too close to it?
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Jun 30, 2018 04:25
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Hunter Noventa posted:Wasn't there also some tidbit about the Mobile Armor waking up specifically because Iok brought mobile suits too close to it? Proximity sensors aren't exactly exclusive to weapons of last resort.
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Jun 30, 2018 04:30
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golden bubble posted:Strangely, Dainsleifs basically serve the purpose of beam weapons for IBO, being a long ranged weapon that can potentially one-shot a warship while still being MS-portable. But IBO lacks one fundamental trait that prevented beams from eliminating MS in other Gundam settings. Sufficiently large numbers of average pilots with Dainsleifs can hit an ace in IBO, but a thousand GMs piloted by faceless grunts with beam rifles will never hit Char. This is such a good point.
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Jun 30, 2018 04:47
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Hunter Noventa posted:Wasn't there also some tidbit about the Mobile Armor waking up specifically because Iok brought mobile suits too close to it? Neddy Seagoon posted:Proximity sensors aren't exactly exclusive to weapons of last resort. It specifically reacted to Ahab reactor signatures, which is how Tekkadan's mining operation was able to dig it up without waking it, why McGillis told them not to go anywhere near it, and why they went to inspect it on foot. Iok flying in like a moron with his mobile suit squadron indeed woke it up; McGillis is even telling him to gently caress off and go away before it's too late. golden bubble posted:Strangely, Dainsleifs basically serve the purpose of beam weapons for IBO, being a long ranged weapon that can potentially one-shot a warship while still being MS-portable. But IBO lacks one fundamental trait that prevented beams from eliminating MS in other Gundam settings. Sufficiently large numbers of average pilots with Dainsleifs can hit an ace in IBO, but a thousand GMs piloted by faceless grunts with beam rifles will never hit Char. UC Gundam mostly accomplishes this with the Minovsky particle hand wave which makes beyond visual range combat impossible, which doesn't exist in IBO. Close range combat in IBO is initially mandated by armor being so thick that melee combat is necessary to achieve penetration, but Dainsleifs bypass that problem entirely, so they dominate the battlefield completely. Mika could probably dodge some dudes trying to shoot him with Dainsleifs from normal engagement range but he's powerless to evade when they're shooting him from so far away that he doesn't even know they're shooting him until it's too late.
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Jun 30, 2018 06:48
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Hunter Noventa posted:Wasn't there also some tidbit about the Mobile Armor waking up specifically because Iok brought mobile suits too close to it? It's a metaphor for how Gjallarhorn and is now responsible for the messes it was established to prevent.
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Jun 30, 2018 08:59
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You're forgetting that Gundams were specifically built to fight Mobile Armors. That is not a check against a weapon of last resort, that is just a regular arms race. Gundams were a desperate late-war innovation after humanity had spent quite a while getting its poo poo kicked in by mobile armours. It’s why they’re all so varied and experimental, and inflict such a terrible cost in their pilots. There’s nothing about their existence that prevents them being a reaction to an incredibly effective vengeance weapon when that weapon is specifically dangerous for being able to fight indefinitely.
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Jun 30, 2018 08:59
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Hasmal was originally stopped by dainsleifs, with Flauros either failing or never being expected to win a straight fight.
sassassin fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 09:04
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Kanos posted:Rustal opts to dig out the honorless and glory-less Dainsleifs, and the result is that Rustal slaughters McGillis's rebels and stops the unstoppable monsters by using practical weapons that render mobile suit superiority quite meaningless, like a peasant with a crossbow can kill a knight. It's funny, but up until this point I'd missed the very obvious fact that Dainsleifs are just sci-fi crossbows.
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Jun 30, 2018 10:40
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I’m sorry but has anyone else been reading 0083 Rebellion? The federation rebuilds the Big Z with a gundam face for the Naval Review.
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Jun 30, 2018 12:57
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So I finished IBO S2 a few days ago and having had some time to stew on it, I think I liked it just about as much as the first, by the end. Maybe a bit slow to get started but by the end I was still captivated. Less than I would've been had I not known going in about the fates of a bunch of main characters because of a lack of tags but c'est la vie. I liked all the slower melodrama and various backroom amoral conspiracy to murder/usurp/terrorize/etc stuff, and man, even knowing all the horrible stuff that had to happen knowing the path everyone was on, I still wanted the big happy dissident terrorist family of murderers to come out if it ahead and get their day in the sun. If there's anything I didn't care for though, I would've liked another episode at the end, and maybe have the last few events slowed down and less of a quick and visceral fight to the death, and more of a war of attrition, settling down into a slow death march as Tekkadan/Mika gradually got overwhelmed despite their strength, and making it more about holding a line while waiting for everyone to evacuate and escape. Maybe with Mika/Akihiro's downfall trying to protect too many points at once as others fell around them and gradually getting pushed back, that sort of thing, more of a sad and melancholic approach of inevitability instead of a hero defeats the evil demon sort of thing. But overall, I still really love the series. Definitely in my top 3 of the gundam tv series, alongside 0079 and wing.
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Jun 30, 2018 14:27
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:If there's anything I didn't care for though, I would've liked another episode at the end, and maybe have the last few events slowed down and less of a quick and visceral fight to the death, and more of a war of attrition, settling down into a slow death march as Tekkadan/Mika gradually got overwhelmed despite their strength, and making it more about holding a line while waiting for everyone to evacuate and escape. Maybe with Mika/Akihiro's downfall trying to protect too many points at once as others fell around them and gradually getting pushed back, that sort of thing, more of a sad and melancholic approach of inevitability instead of a hero defeats the evil demon sort of thing. It works better for me that the last stand isn't accomplishing anything. They just keep fighting because that's all they have left/all they know. There didn't even need to be a battle, Gjallarhorn were just waiting out the clock before the bombardment. They're not forced to fight by circumstances/pure unselfish heroism. It's not glorious. These are the tragic, broken victims of a horrible system and Kudelia & Rustal's victory is that children won't have to grow up like Mika, Hush, Akihiro, McGillis etc. did on Mars in the future (at least on the same scale).
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Jun 30, 2018 14:45
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Kanos posted:IBO explicitly points out that a huge reason why mobile suits are regarded as such unstoppable titans of warfare is because of the romanticized Arthurian ideal of Gjallarhorn, where 7 legendary knights rode out and slew the dragons using their building-sized magic armor and secured a wondrous peace for everyone forever(under Gjallarhorn's boot). It also shows that they're highly capable units of warfare capable of taking out warships, tank analogues and other mechs. There might be a degree of legend around them, but it's not the only thing making them a mainstay of combat by any stretch. Kanos posted:Mobile Suits are presented in the show as the best way to kill Mobile Armors i.e. they're an effective weapon of war. That other things are effective too or that they're not effective in every single situation doesn't make them not effective. Kanos posted:the entire last quarter of the show marks them as pretty superfluous in human vs human combat if one of the participating sides is intelligent enough to not play by the established rules. That's what makes IBO very different from, say, the UC, where the mobile suit is never convincingly defeated as the be-all-end-all of combat. The Solar Ray and Colony Lasers are basically the same thing in 0079 and Zeta among others. They're the commander pulling out a super weapon that can wipe out large numbers of enemy mobile suits and ships en masse; the only difference is that that en masse annihilation doesn't include the main character. Which doesn't actually make them less effective or change the fact that they can and are capable of trumping the mobile suit as a be-all, end-all of war. No mobile suit can effectively take a colony laser (or equivalent, like the Solar Ray) one on one in UC. Not even the Unicorn; which, putting aside that the Banshee was there too, was only able to withstand a direct hit due to singular circumstances. Including the intervention of a newtype ghost. Actually, they're more so in a way; both because they don't depend on the enemy standing stock still for the 5+ seconds it takes to aim and shoot them as well as the projectile to cross the intervening distance but because one shot can take out hundreds, possibly thousands of mobile suits and ships at once. And by the way, the fact that the Barbatos and Gusion were hit by the Dainsleifs despite the Grazes aiming from the upper atmosphere when the ground troops had made no effort to corral the Gundam's movements or prevent them from moving from where they were kind of undermines them as some super weapon that trumps mobile suits. Not to mention that neither the Barbatos or Gusion were actually killed by the barrage, only lethally injured. They still managed to decimate some troops afterwards. That the Gundams just obliged Rustal and the Dainsleif Grazes for no real reason beyond writer fiat is kind of silly. Yea, Mika and Akihiro are probably supposed to be tired and taking a few seconds to grab a breather but it still comes off as kind of contrived. If they'd continued to move as they do in every other battle, then the Dainslief probably wouldn't have hit or done any damage at all. They're really better against immobile targets, not mobile suits. Rustal just made them work against a few mobile suits; but that's clearly not what they're designed to do. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 15:08
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tsob posted:Not to mention that neither the Barbatos or Gusion were actually killed by the barrage, only lethally injured. They still managed to decimate some troops afterwards. That the Gundams just obliged Rustal and the Dainsleif Grazes for no real reason beyond writer fiat is kind of silly. Yea, Mika and Akihiro are probably supposed to be tired and taking a few seconds to grab a breather but it still comes off as kind of contrived. If they'd continued to move as they do in every other battle, then the Dainslief probably wouldn't have hit or done any damage at all. It's not like the bolts actually needed to hit them. It was a mass area bombardment.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:15
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sassassin posted:It's not like the bolts actually needed to hit them. It was a mass area bombardment. They're a terrible mass area bombardment tool then, because no other suit in the area, and there were a good few, was hit or injured at all. They only damage a tiny area in the direct vicinity of their impact. They do a lot of damage in that tiny area, but they only really damage that tiny area of impact. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 15:15
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tsob posted:They're a terrible mass area bombardment then, because no other suit in the area, and there were lots, was hit or injured at all. Even if they somehow knew about, and dodged, the first wave, the bombardment team are in orbit and guess what? They're reloading, and they have ammo for days. Even if Mika and Akihiro had been lucky once and dodged every shot, those are not good long-term odds for followup bombardments. Even just slight damage would've slowed them down fatally.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Even if they somehow knew about, and dodged, the first wave, the bombardment team are in orbit and guess what? They're reloading, and they have ammo for days. Even if Mika and Akihiro had been lucky once and dodged every shot, those are not good long-term odds for followup bombardments. Even just slight damage would've slowed them down fatally. Why are you spoiling that? Also, like you said the Grazes are in orbit. In any other circumstance that would mean their odds of hitting something that's actually moving are terrible. Dodging them for days on end shouldn't be even close to a problem so long as the energy and fuel holds up. Unless something restricts their movements, which Gjallarhorn were making no notable effort to do.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:21
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tsob posted:Why are you spoiling that? Because it relates to something at the end of a 50-episode series that a lot of people are still watching for the first time and is barely a year old.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:25
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tsob posted:The Solar Ray and Colony Lasers are basically the same thing in 0079 and Zeta among others. They're the commander pulling out a super weapon that can wipe out large numbers of enemy mobile suits and ships en masse; the only difference is that that en masse annihilation doesn't include the main character. Which doesn't actually make them less effective or change the fact that they can and are capable of trumping the mobile suit as a be-all, end-all of war. No mobile suit can effectively take a colony laser (or equivalent, like the Solar Ray) one on one in UC. Not even the Unicorn; which, putting aside that the Banshee was there too, was only able to withstand a direct hit due to singular circumstances. Including the intervention of a newtype ghost. The Solar Ray and Colony Lasers are enormous fixed point immobile weapons platforms that are fantastic at eradicating an enormous swathe of enemies at a long distance but are utterly dependent on supplementary forces to defend them against close assaults. The Dainsleifs are mass production guns that can be easily strapped to any platform you want and distributed any way you want; all you need are launchers and ammo. They are precise and narrow in focus and carry a limited risk of collateral damage, unlike the Colony Laser and Solar Ray, which are shown inflicting enormous amounts of friendly fire when utilized. They are shown to be wildly effective against the most powerful forms of defense in the setting; battleships in IBO are shown to be huge slabs of armor that literally can't harm each other with main gun broadsides at long range, but we see numerous battleships being shishkabobbed from beyond visual range by Dainsleif fire. Basically Dainsleifs are presented as a much more effective, cheap, and easy to use superweapon with fewer weaknesses than any of the UC superweapons. The Dainsleifs are shown blowing mobile suits apart from beyond visual range on multiple occasions in the show. It's really, really difficult to evade a Rod From God. tsob posted:They're a terrible mass area bombardment tool then, because no other suit in the area, and there were a good few, was hit or injured at all. They only damage a tiny area in the direct vicinity of their impact. They do a lot of damage in that tiny area, but they only really damage that tiny area of impact. Rewatching the scene just now, prior to the moment of impact Gjallarhorn falls back. Mika and Akihiro muse about how they're probably falling back because they don't want to die in a fight they're going to win. Then Rustal has the Dainsleifs fire and the shot we get shows the Gjallarhorn forces way the gently caress away from the target area, which is shown to be pretty loving huge.  It's a mass bombardment not reliant on direct hits and it's shown causing earthquakes in distant areas. It doesn't need to spear them directly to do damage. Even if it did, it's nearly impossible to avoid a kinetic kill weapon being fired at you from loving ORBIT when you don't even know it's being fired at you!
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Jun 30, 2018 15:34
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They were aiming for the base.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:40
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sassassin posted:They were aiming for the base. I don't know about that. Rustal: "A monster that can crush a mobile armor single-handedly can hardly be called human anymore. There are suitable manners for bringing down such beasts. Dainsleif team, fire." It doesn't seem crazy to suggest that a Graze in orbit can accurately target something on the surface. IBO doesn't have Minovsky particles; long range combat is limited by the relative ineffectiveness of long range weaponry versus armor technology rather than because magic particles make sensors not work.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:42
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Kanos posted:I don't know about that. Anyone from IBO's Earth knows that firing a bunch of massive metal rods at a planet mashes up everything in the immediate area, robots included. Just look at the moon.
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Jun 30, 2018 15:57
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Kanos posted:They are precise and narrow in focus and carry a limited risk of collateral damage, unlike the Colony Laser and Solar Ray, which are shown inflicting enormous amounts of friendly fire when utilized. Which makes them not a better weapon than mobile suits in at least some situations, how? Kanos posted:The Dainsleifs are shown blowing mobile suits apart from beyond visual range on multiple occasions in the show. It's really, really difficult to evade a Rod From God. Because of writer fiat yes. Aiming at a moving object when you're that far away and neither your weapon or your projectile has any demonstrated form of lock on would be impossible without it. Kanos posted:Then Rustal has the Dainsleifs fire and the shot we get shows the Gjallarhorn forces way the gently caress away from the target area, which is shown to be pretty loving huge. They're a few dozen meters away, maybe a hundred or two at most. In what way is that "way the gently caress away"? Kanos posted:It's a mass bombardment not reliant on direct hits and it's shown causing earthquakes in distant areas. Not in that scene it isn't. The very closest thing to it is members of Tekkadan hearing rumbling noises they initially attribute to explosions. Which isn't the same thing as an earthquake. They're also close enough to the battlefield that they can clearly hear the noise of battle all along and they comment on the eerieness when those sounds stop just before the dainsliefs fall. Kanos posted:It doesn't need to spear them directly to do damage. There's not one shot there of a unit being damaged from an indirect hit, so yea, I think they might actually do. Kanos posted:Even if it did, it's nearly impossible to avoid a kinetic kill weapon being fired at you from loving ORBIT when you don't even know it's being fired at you! Really? Because I'd argue the exact opposite and say it's almost impossible to hit a mobile target from orbit regardless of whether they know you're there or not. The only reason the Grazes could is because the Gundams stopped despite no-one making any effort to make them do so. Dainsleifs are a bombardment weapon, but they're obviously better against relatively immobile targets, not mobile suits. Rustal made it work against suits (well, the director did, but it's the same thing in consequence) but that's not what they're designed for. sassassin posted:Anyone from IBO's Earth knows that firing a bunch of massive metal rods at a planet mashes up everything in the immediate area, robots included. Just look at the moon. The Dainsleifs as depicted couldn't do a fraction of that damage to the Moon even if there were a million Grazes firing them en masse for weeks on end. If Dainsleifs did that, then they were Dianleifs supplemented with some kind of super high explosive warhead. tsob fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 16:08
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tsob posted:Which makes them not a better weapon than mobile suits in at least some situations, how? The argument is whether or not superweapons topple Mobile Suits from their position of dominance in combat. The UC superweapons are good at one particular thing and have a host of presented weaknesses that restrict their use, meaning that they can't displace mobile suits as primary weapons platforms because they're literally only good for mass area annihilation and nothing else. Dainsleifs are much more wide in application because they can be used for narrow, specific purposes or wide area annihilation depending on how many you deploy, as well as being much harder to destroy or disable. quote:Because of writer fiat yes. Aiming at a moving object when you're that far away and neither your weapon or your projectile has any demonstrated form of lock on would be impossible without it. You realize that kinetic kill weapons are a real thing that is being researched right now, right? This kind of stuff is less science fiction than most Gundam weapons, so there's a reasonable idea how it works. Hitting at or near a moving target that moves at a couple hundred miles per hour at most when you're firing a kinetic kill weapon whose projectile moves at thousands of miles per second is actually pretty loving easy. quote:They're a few dozen meters away, maybe a hundred or two at most. In what way is that "way the gently caress away"? Watch the scene. They're a good distance away and they're over the crest of a hill. Hundreds of meters away is sufficient distance from the area of bombardment when you're in a giant block of armor. If they were infantry or something they'd probably get pulped, but they're not. quote:Not in that scene it isn't. The very closest thing to it is members of Tekkadan hearing rumbling noises they initially attribute to explosions. Which isn't the same thing as an earthquake. They're also close enough to the battlefield that they can clearly hear the noise of battle all along and they comment on the eerieness when those sounds stop just before the dainsliefs fall. They pull back the camera and show the ground quaking all the way out at the Tekkadan memorial in Ms. Sakura's farm fields, which are distant enough from the Tekkadan base of operations that it required a car ride to get there conveniently earlier in the show. They only fired half a dozen Dainsleifs, too. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 16:31
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Kanos posted:The argument is whether or not superweapons topple Mobile Suits from their position of dominance in combat. The UC superweapons are good at one particular thing and have a host of presented weaknesses that restrict their use, meaning that they can't displace mobile suits as primary weapons platforms because they're literally only good for mass area annihilation and nothing else. Dainsleifs are much more wide in application because they can be used for narrow, specific purposes or wide area annihilation depending on how many you deploy, as well as being much harder to destroy or disable. Dainsleifs don't topple mobile suits as a weapon of war either, or else Gjallarhorn wouldn't have had any in that battlefield. They supplement it, they're better at certain things than mobile suits; but they are not superior at every aspect of conflict to mobile suits. Especially when it's mobile suits firing them in the first place. They're just another form of projectile; not another platform. Kanos posted:You realize that kinetic kill weapons are a real thing that is being researched right now, right? This kind of stuff is less science fiction than most Gundam weapons, so there's a reasonable idea how it works. Hitting at or near a moving target that moves at a couple hundred miles per hour at most when you're firing a kinetic kill weapon whose projectile moves at thousands of miles per second is actually pretty loving easy. Kinetic bombardment weapons don't travel even close to thousands of miles per second. That kind of speed is closer to a relativistic kill weapon (i.e. something travelling close to the speed of light) than a kinetic one really. Kinetic bombardment weapons are going to be closer to thousands of miles per hour, not per second. They'd still take a few seconds from launch to impact if fired from orbit. They'd probably take something like 10 to 20 seconds just for the round to travel that distance if fired from 100+ miles up, which is a reasonable height for kinetic bombardment. Kanos posted:Watch the scene. They're a good distance away and they're over the crest of a hill. Hundreds of meters away is sufficient distance from the area of bombardment when you're in a giant block of armor. If they were infantry or something they'd probably get pulped, but they're not. I have watched the scene, nothing in it shows dainsleifs as being lethal if they don't hit directly and the Gjallarhorn suits don't don't open up a massive distance as you were indicating originally. It might be one or two hundred meters, but the point is that the impact doesn't cause massive collateral damage. Which you yourself are trying to use elsewhere as one of the reasons they're such a good weapon. Kanos posted:They pull back the camera and show the ground quaking all the way out at the Tekkadan memorial in Ms. Sakura's farm fields, which are distant enough from the Tekkadan base of operations that it required a car ride to get there conveniently earlier in the show. The shot from the plaque shows the dust from the impact clearly rising only a dozen fields or so away. There's probably more distance over the drop-off, but again, the battlefield doesn't appear to be all that distant from it.
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Jun 30, 2018 17:03
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tsob posted:The Dainsleifs as depicted couldn't do a fraction of that damage to the Moon even if there were a million Grazes firing them en masse for weeks on end. If Dainsleifs did that, then they were Dianleifs supplemented with some kind of super high explosive warhead. Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, The mobile-suit-portable version isn't the only calibre of kinetic weapon developed during the Calamity War? Say, maybe something ship-mountable?
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Jun 30, 2018 17:23
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