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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:American American who has lived over there as well and actually, it is that different (ie better). Lived "over there" being what, one northern country or possibly Germany? I live in Switzerland and the social safety net is really not any better than the US, and the healthcare system isn't really either except that Obamacare has been mandatory here for long enough that the insurance companies eventually settled on extremely-high-but-not-quite-comically-evil prices. Bernie Sanders would be part of the socialist party here which is considered quite far left of center. Private Speech posted:even relatively immigration-hostile places like the UK or Eastern Europe have fairly open work visa programs, with a guaranteed pathway to citizenship within a couple of years. As someone currently in the citizenship process for Switzerland, this is incredibly, incredibly wrong. A couple of years? gently caress that. More like 12 years. Since Jan 1, 2018, it's 10 years now but with additional hassles and changes that actually make it harder and take longer for many people. And that 12 years is nowhere near guaranteed. I know people whose applications have been rejected. gently caress, in many places they can reject you because they don't like you and you didn't come to their village party and hang out with your neighbors. Literally they can reject you for any reason if your neighbors don't like you. That can literally be the loving reason. This is even true if you are married to a Swiss person. The US immigration system is a hassle, but so it is for many countries in Europe. Definitely for Switzerland. At least the US has rules, here it's a goddamn free for all. It is probably easier in many countries than the US, but that I can come up with a counterexample where that is definitively false, that's kind of my point that generalizing "Europe" as a single country of "leftwing paradise" or whatever is as stupid as when Europeans generalize "all Americans" when you have Portland Oregon and rural Mississippi in the same country. E: also while few European countries are as hostile to migrants of any flavor as -the current administration- the general attitude and policy is far to the right of all previous US admins in the past decades anyway. Like France? Italy? Spain? Switzerland? None of these countries exactly welcome people with open arms. Switzerland welcomed a generous number of Yugoslavians in the 1990s but that was definitely a last case scenario. For the last 8 years if you get to Switzerland you’re locked up 6 days a week in a refugee camp in the hills somewhere. They’re allowed out on Sunday, but this is a hell of a lot more restrictive than the US’s previous policy. The application process can and usually does take years. So that’s years in an internment camp. This is super standard across Europe. I also don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who thinks "we should take in more Syrians, Eritreans, and Somalis here, we’re a rich country that can handle it." I’ve never seen a newspaper article to that effect either and I read the French language news (ie generally far more left than the German areas). Saladman fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 07:55
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Isn't Switzerland kind of a shithole full of rich pricks tho
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Jul 2, 2018 08:53
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Switzerland is typical of Europe in the same way the Bahamas are typical of North America.
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Jul 2, 2018 08:59
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Ras Het posted:Isn't Switzerland kind of a shithole full of rich pricks tho Yeah it’s just the Swiss that are anti immigrant. Oh wait no it’s every country in Europe now. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/...pgtype=Homepage There’s a front page NYT article today. There’s stuff like that every day. If you don’t see it then you’re not paying attention to be honest.
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Jul 2, 2018 09:21
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steinrokkan posted:Switzerland is typical of Europe in the same way the Bahamas are typical of North America. In that.. the vast majority of its residents are the same as everyone else in the Caribbean, but there are some foreigners and a few locals with a ton of money but that doesn’t really mean the Bahamas aren’t like most other Caribbean nations? Literally not sure what you’re going for here. Most Bahamanians are as poor and living in basic housing as people in Dominicans republic or Dominica or wherever. Switzerland isn’t Monaco or Qatar. Whenever I see people fawn over liberal paradise Europe it’s just obvious they haven’t read the international section of their newspaper in 10 years. Saladman fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 09:23
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Saladman posted:Yeah it’s just the Swiss that are anti immigrant. Oh wait no it’s every country in Europe now. Well I didn't mean that, I meant what you said about the social safety net, citizenship requirements and healthcare e: like I don't even disagree with the gist of what you're saying in that to Americans "Europe" means the Nordic countries and Netherlands, while Southern Europe let alone Eastern are completely forgotten about - but for the rich well off "liberal" part Switzerland does not seem like a representative example, for many reasons Ras Het fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 09:26
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Migrants and refugees are so popular everywhere, the whole thing might collapse over who gets to not have them.
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Jul 2, 2018 09:45
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Calais: never heard of it, nor any associated passes That's literally a voluntary place, not a loving prison. Can you really not see the difference between that and e.g. Yarl's Wood, where migrants are held indefinitely in literal jail cells under sub-prison conditions and subject to abuse? quote:As someone currently in the citizenship process for Switzerland, this is incredibly, incredibly wrong. A couple of years? gently caress that. More like 12 years. Since Jan 1, 2018, it's 10 years now but with additional hassles and changes that actually make it harder and take longer for many people. And that 12 years is nowhere near guaranteed. I know people whose applications have been rejected. gently caress, in many places they can reject you because they don't like you and you didn't come to their village party and hang out with your neighbors. Literally they can reject you for any reason if your neighbors don't like you. That can literally be the loving reason. This is even true if you are married to a Swiss person. The US immigration system is a hassle, but so it is for many countries in Europe. Definitely for Switzerland. At least the US has rules, here it's a goddamn free for all. Unfortunately Switzerland isn't in the EU, and so the same rules don't apply to it. Elsewhere it's five years maximum (UK more but that's because they put on their own special twist on it that they keep getting sued for) Switzerland is also poo poo as far as healthcare and social security goes, as noted above.
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Jul 2, 2018 09:46
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Private Speech posted:Unfortunately Switzerland isn't in the EU, and so the same rules don't apply to it. Elsewhere it's five years maximum (UK more but that's because they put on their own special twist on it that they keep getting sued for) Huh, I knew it was crazy easy to get French citizenship, but I thought they were the exception because of their pro-colonial-integration-kind-of history with getting everyone from La Francophonie into France, or at least having the potential to. I mean, in Malta and Cyprus and Austria you can just -buy- a passport, but I thought they were the weirdos that no one liked. The requirements ( https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2213 ) other than 5 years aren't even that hard. Basically you just have to speak passable French, have a job, and not have been imprisoned for more than 6 months. Christ, even my annual permit renewal in Switzerland this year is like 50 pages, and I've been here 10 years but they still want supporting documents going back to my goddamn birth because now that I'm married I can only get a family permit, which is worse than the standard work permit I had beforehand because it entails a lot more goddamn paperwork and doesn't bring any other real benefits. Like I don't think I can even theoretically claim social assistance, because one of the main 10 bulletpoints I have to address is "give us documentation that you have never claimed social assistance in the past 3 years."
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Jul 2, 2018 09:59
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Calais: never heard of it, nor any associated passes The Calais jungle was not a detention camp. It was a shanty town constructed by migrants waiting for an opportunity to move to Great Britain. A detention camp would be something created by the government where migrants are forcibly put into with no hope of getting out. A shantytown is something that the government wants to destroy because it was illegally constructed without any sort of permit and they're trying to forcibly get the migrants out of it. So pretty much the exact opposite of a detention camp. Private Speech posted:it's five years maximum Special shout-out to Portugal for having the most phone-incompatible section of the table.
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Jul 2, 2018 11:16
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Comparing US immigration policies and European immigration policies is probably worth a thread in itself because in many respects it's an apples to oranges comparison. The historical and political context of the systems is wildly different and immigration is a vast range of topics (labour migration, humanitarian migration, family reunification, short-term visas vs. permanent residence, detention and deportation, judicial proceedings, treatment of minors, naturalization requirements and process, processing fees, jus soli/jus sanguinis citizenship) where the US is better in some and worse in some. Here, a pithy approximation that is only mostly wrong: the US public is more heterogenic and amenable to immigration than European publics, but US governance on the issue is a garbage fire (and was before Trump happened, too). Also, naturalization is not in any of the EU competencies so EU countries can do whatever the hell they want with it. Sulphagnist fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 11:22
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:American American who has lived over there as well and actually, it is that different (ie better). Then again we're also comparing a country the size of Europe (sans Russia) to well Europe. If you're coming out of Oklahoma yeah Western Europe is probably gonna seem that level of different. Coming out of Massachusetts not so much. And therein we glimpse part of the dysfunction of the US.
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Jul 2, 2018 14:02
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Grape posted:Then again we're also comparing a country the size of Europe (sans Russia) to well Europe.
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Jul 2, 2018 14:13
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mobby_6kl posted:Emphasis on the Western Europe. Something like Albania or Moldova probably wouldn't look like an upgrade to anyone. Moldova, according to the UN's Human Development Index, is a worse place to live than the Dominican Republic. 
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Jul 2, 2018 14:32
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from what i recall, america has hamburgers
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Jul 2, 2018 15:36
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Tree Goat posted:from what i recall, america has hamburgers unfortunately, so does europe.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:51
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Hamburgers gently caress off home to Hamburg
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Jul 2, 2018 16:23
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Tree Goat posted:from what i recall, america has hamburgers Yeah but no good ones because they don't put two kinds of mayonnaise in them.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:00
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From the desk of J. Edgar Hoover, circa August 1950.quote:Details:  
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Jul 2, 2018 17:14
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The single communist in Georgia ftw
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Jul 2, 2018 17:17
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Plutonis posted:The single communist in Georgia ftw you rang
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Jul 2, 2018 17:29
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An illustration of the Anaconda Plan
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Jul 2, 2018 17:52
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Grape posted:Oh god I fell down an idiot hole on youtube. The Mandela Effect On World Geography! vs. Godspeed You! Black Emperor - The Sad Mafioso by VJ American Geography (turn up the volume on the video on the left a bit) edit: holy poo poo, this is better than I thought it would be twoday fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 19:06
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I find it kinda funny that the US had to make such a huge deal out of what is essentially the idea of "let's do a naval blockade".
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Jul 2, 2018 19:06
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Orange Devil posted:I find it kinda funny that the US had to make such a huge deal out of what is essentially the idea of "let's do a naval blockade". Did the US make a weirdly huge deal? It looks like standard wartime propaganda to convince civilians that their leaders totally have a good strategy and your boys will win this thing.
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Jul 2, 2018 19:14
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isn't that how they actually won it?
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Jul 2, 2018 19:15
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Phlegmish posted:isn't that how they actually won it? Short answer: yes. Long answer: lol no. Scott didn't intend or expect the army to do much fighting.
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Jul 2, 2018 19:28
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Cat Mattress posted:The Calais jungle was not a detention camp. It was a shanty town constructed by migrants waiting for an opportunity to move to Great Britain. Oh I guess it is up to 10 years, I always thought it was 5 maximum. quote:Also, naturalization is not in any of the EU competencies so EU countries can do whatever the hell they want with it. Fairly certain that it was part of some sort of non-binding framework. The 'getting sued' part was because of the right to family life, and only applies to the closest relatives of EU citizens and long-term residents. IIRC the UK does not allow spouses of people who earn below the median wage to immigrate (the US has a similar threshold too). Which then subsequently can infringe upon the right to family life. edit: Though it does still come ahead of the US, as shown by this fabulous graphic: 
Private Speech fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 20:59
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Did the US make a weirdly huge deal? It looks like standard wartime propaganda to convince civilians that their leaders totally have a good strategy and your boys will win this thing. "The Anaconda Plan" still being a thing people just know 150 years later is a strangely large deal yes. Maybe huge is too strong a word.
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Jul 2, 2018 21:02
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Orange Devil posted:"The Anaconda Plan" still being a thing people just know 150 years later is a strangely large deal yes. Maybe huge is too strong a word. Outside of history nerds it’s, uh, not a thing people know Like outside of college classmates I can’t tell you a single person who would recognize The Anaconda Plan
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Jul 2, 2018 21:26
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My anaconda don't My anaconda don't My anaconda don't want none unless you got plans, son
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Jul 2, 2018 21:28
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Saladman posted:Lived "over there" being what, one northern country or possibly Germany? I live in Switzerland and the social safety net is really not any better than the US, and the healthcare system isn't really either except that Obamacare has been mandatory here for long enough that the insurance companies eventually settled on extremely-high-but-not-quite-comically-evil prices. Bernie Sanders would be part of the socialist party here which is considered quite far left of center. I stand by what I said.
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Jul 2, 2018 22:06
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Orange Devil posted:"The Anaconda Plan" still being a thing people just know 150 years later is a strangely large deal yes. Maybe huge is too strong a word. We also know of lots of other plans. That’s just how knowledge works
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Jul 2, 2018 22:09
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I stand by what I said. Excellent question dodge, have you considered running for office?
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Jul 2, 2018 22:34
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Orange Devil posted:I find it kinda funny that the US had to make such a huge deal out of what is essentially the idea of "let's do a naval blockade". gently caress you winfield scott owned full disclosure: he is my ancestor and you can clearly see his pompous rear end in a top hat genetics in my family tree also it was "let's devote a shitload of resources to a naval blockade and related activities because if the confederacy doesn't get outside resources it's turbo-hosed"
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Jul 2, 2018 22:55
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Back to flags for a second, this is one of my favorites (if you know it kudos - it's not super obscure, but certainly far from common)
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Jul 3, 2018 00:10
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 Regions in Russia where the average life expectancy is less than the new pension age
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Jul 3, 2018 00:35
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System Metternich posted:
Judging by the inclusion of all the North Caucasus, I'm guessing the white regions are the lower life expectancy?
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Jul 3, 2018 00:37
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Grape posted:Judging by the inclusion of all the North Caucasus, I'm guessing the white regions are the lower life expectancy? Other way round actually, everything that’s orange has a (male) life expectancy of <65 years. Here is another map: 
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Jul 3, 2018 00:59
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actionjackson posted:Back to flags for a second, this is one of my favorites (if you know it kudos - it's not super obscure, but certainly far from common) Yessss Confirming that if you think about it a bit, you can guess it without using google
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Jul 3, 2018 02:16
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