Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

If the judgment was made in the local currency, why don't they just buy Bs. 1,000,000,000 on the black market?

I don't know. I suspect that Saladman is right, and that the court will simply demand the money in US dollars for whatever reason. There's indication that Cabello expects the damages to be paid in US dollars, since he clarified during a televised speech last week that one billion bolivares was not $500. While addressing the editor of El Nacional, Miguel H. Otero, Cabello said:

quote:

It's not $500 like you said. Get the math right. He who laughs last, laughs best.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 13:54

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# ? May 30, 2024 10:34

Arkane: Dec 19, 2006; by R. Guyovich

Celexi posted:

The totally not drug transportation flights I often find in flightradar over Venezuela with weird flying paths that involve turning on and off transponder, some escorted by Venezuela airforce, and Maduro airplane flying weirdly is interesting.
Venezuela went from a rich country to a lawless bankrupt narco state, was this the revolution Chavez envisioned?

Pretty sure Chavez started fleecing the country and lining his pockets immediately, so it's debatable what he envisioned versus what he pretended to envision. His progeny still live a life of absolute luxury, largely immune to the chaos, as far as I am aware.

Speaking of wealth, what is the June 2018 dynamic with Polar/Lorenzo Mendoza and PSUV/Maduro? I know that both Chavez and Maduro have feigned action and talked up a big game about how terrible the company and man is, but considering the degree to which they've attacked and dismantled private industry, a noticeable lack of action on the Polar front. The situation is a lot worse now, and still nothing. Does PSUV kinda just need them, in terms of infrastructure and their ability to produce food and drink? And how is Polar managing to stay in "business"?

Arkane fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jun 12, 2018

# ? Jun 12, 2018 16:57

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

Arkane posted:

Pretty sure Chavez started fleecing the country and lining his pockets immediately, so it's debatable what he envisioned versus what he pretended to envision. His progeny still live a life of absolute luxury, largely immune to the chaos, as far as I am aware.

Speaking of wealth, what is the June 2018 dynamic with Polar/Lorenzo Mendoza and PSUV/Maduro? I know that both Chavez and Maduro have feigned action and talked up a big game about how terrible the company and man is, but considering the degree to which they've attacked and dismantled private industry, a noticeable lack of action on the Polar front. The situation is a lot worse now, and still nothing. Does PSUV kinda just need them, in terms of infrastructure and their ability to produce food and drink? And how is Polar managing to stay in "business"?

Well, the thing is Polar produces almost everything you can imagine. From foodstuffs to beer and I'm guessing alcoholic beverages are enabling them to offset losses from other areas of production, but I'm talking out of my rear end here. The government still throws the occasional jab at Polar, but they haven't been really aggressive towards them for a while now unless I've missed something. Polar also bought itself a lot of goodwill lately since it secured the rights for the world cup and is sharing them with national channels (including some owned by the government) in exchange for publicity during the matches.

But basically, yes. The government absolutely needs Polar since they produce so much stuff if you take them out of the equation, you'd be taking the food out of a significant percentage of mouths and there aren't enough imports to go around for everyone.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 17:51

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

I wouldn't be surprised if Polar is on a very short list of people/organizations in Venezuela that still have good credit and can import things.

# ? Jun 12, 2018 18:06

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Celexi posted:

The totally not drug transportation flights I often find in flightradar over Venezuela with weird flying paths that involve turning on and off transponder, some escorted by Venezuela airforce, and Maduro airplane flying weirdly is interesting.
Venezuela went from a rich country to a lawless bankrupt narco state, was this the revolution Chavez envisioned?

End state socialism

# ? Jun 12, 2018 22:56

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Celexi posted:

The totally not drug transportation flights I often find in flightradar over Venezuela with weird flying paths that involve turning on and off transponder, some escorted by Venezuela airforce, and Maduro airplane flying weirdly is interesting.
Venezuela went from a rich country to a lawless bankrupt narco state, was this the revolution Chavez envisioned?

I'm sure that if Maduro just listened to one of those well-meaning tankies from the North he'd be able to save the Bolivarian revolution. He also absolutely totally wants that.

# ? Jun 13, 2018 03:18

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

A journalist based in Miami called Oscar Haza reported yesterday that Diosdado Cabello
(the PSUV's second-in-command) has had $800 million in assets seized by U.S. authorities, including twelve real estate properties. Haza also reported that Cabello's daughter, Daniella Cabello, was deported from the U.S. and sent back to Venezuela while she was in transit to Spain via JFK.

As far as I'm aware, the story has not been independently verified, but Haza has doubled-down on the story and said that his source is inside the Trump administration and is reliable.

Some other bits of news:

The results of a survey released today show that 87.5% of Venezuelan believe that they are doing worse today than they were last year, and 42.1% said that the main issue affecting them is the high cost of living. 82.2% do not believe that things will get better over the next three months.

Of note: the fact when asked what they believe is the cause of the country's problems, only 2.8% said "economic war", which is the term that the regime uses to describe the alleged worldwide conspiracy against the Bolivarian Revolution.

The same poll found that 81.5% of Venezuelans have a negative opinion of Maduro, and 77.2% said that Maduro is not the president that Venezuela needs to overcome the crisis (remember that Maduro "won" a presidential election less than one month ago...).
Ruperta, a 48-year old elephant that lived in a zoo in Caracas, died yesterday due to ill-health. Ruperta made news last year due to the fact that she was severely malnourished and clearly in distress. A political cartoonist named EDO made this image of Ruperta's rotting corpse in the shape of Venezuela:

https://twitter.com/edoilustrado/status/1006590119921537025

# ? Jun 13, 2018 14:31

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Wow, apparently Switzerland has initiated travel bans and asset freezes on several PSUV bigwigs. That�s pretty damning considering like, Paul Biya, lives in Geneva and every Arab monarch and prince has a home either near Geneva or near Luzern. Diosdado is one of the seven.

https://www.letemps.ch/monde/venezuela-reagit-aux-sanctions-imposees-suisse

# ? Jun 15, 2018 22:53

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

The NYTimes had an interesting expos� today on the state of PDVSA, and why Maduro's claim to turn Venezuelan oil production around is a pipe dream, even in the absence of the issue with Conoco repossessing the facilities in the ABC islands.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/world/americas/venezuela-oil-economy.html

So basically Venezuela will not become a tropical Mad Max. At least in Mad Max they have oil.

I also wonder: who the hell is buying the copper and pumps and whatever that they are stealing? Like is there still enough industry in Venezuela that there's even a market for copper? I know copper theft is a huge problem in the United States too, but at least there I imagine there are enough scumbags who are willing to melt it down, and enough willingly-oblivious people to buy it at bargain prices.

(I do not think the people stealing in Venezuela, or even the people melting it and reselling it, are necessarily scumbags, given how dire life seems to be for many.)

Saladman fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jun 16, 2018

# ? Jun 16, 2018 19:31

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Saladman posted:

The NYTimes had an interesting expos� today on the state of PDVSA, and why Maduro's claim to turn Venezuelan oil production around is a pipe dream, even in the absence of the issue with Conoco repossessing the facilities in the ABC islands.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/world/americas/venezuela-oil-economy.html

So basically Venezuela will not become a tropical Mad Max. At least in Mad Max they have oil.

I also wonder: who the hell is buying the copper and pumps and whatever that they are stealing? Like is there still enough industry in Venezuela that there's even a market for copper? I know copper theft is a huge problem in the United States too, but at least there I imagine there are enough scumbags who are willing to melt it down, and enough willingly-oblivious people to buy it at bargain prices.

(I do not think the people stealing in Venezuela, or even the people melting it and reselling it, are necessarily scumbags, given how dire life seems to be for many.)

Probably gets smuggled over the border to somewhwre with a real market. Why risk getting murdered trying to trade copper to other unsaavory (and starving) people when you can go over the border and sell it to ascrap exchange that isnt guarded by the military.

Most of the time they dont melt it down, if you steal copper piping you can sell that easier than a hunk of copper. Especially to construction people who need the copper regardless of source

# ? Jun 16, 2018 19:57

catfry: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Saladman posted:

The NYTimes had an interesting expos� today on the state of PDVSA, and why Maduro's claim to turn Venezuelan oil production around is a pipe dream, even in the absence of the issue with Conoco repossessing the facilities in the ABC islands.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/world/americas/venezuela-oil-economy.html

So basically Venezuela will not become a tropical Mad Max. At least in Mad Max they have oil.

I also wonder: who the hell is buying the copper and pumps and whatever that they are stealing? Like is there still enough industry in Venezuela that there's even a market for copper? I know copper theft is a huge problem in the United States too, but at least there I imagine there are enough scumbags who are willing to melt it down, and enough willingly-oblivious people to buy it at bargain prices.

(I do not think the people stealing in Venezuela, or even the people melting it and reselling it, are necessarily scumbags, given how dire life seems to be for many.)

it is exactly in economies where the money system and other parts of the economy do not work well that black markets and trade in stolen goods flourish. There is scarcity of everything, who not copper as well? Is is useful for many things. Why would there not be even more "scumbags who are willing to melt it down, and enough willingly-oblivious people to buy it at bargain prices" in Venezuela right now? People will find ways to get what they need one way or another, and without legal methods they will go for other ways.

# ? Jun 16, 2018 20:20

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Yeah, I guess there is still some industry and construction going on, I just get the impression that literally everything has ground to a halt but there must actually be a fair amount of manufacturing and other economic activity going on, just not nearly enough to sustain 30 million people.

I didn't mean the people doing it in Venezuela (on any step of the process) were scumbags. I can only imagine I would also steal things to survive if my family was starving.

# ? Jun 16, 2018 21:12

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Saladman posted:

Yeah, I guess there is still some industry and construction going on, I just get the impression that literally everything has ground to a halt but there must actually be a fair amount of manufacturing and other economic activity going on, just not nearly enough to sustain 30 million people.

I didn't mean the people doing it in Venezuela (on any step of the process) were scumbags. I can only imagine I would also steal things to survive if my family was starving.

Grind to a halt because lack of building supplies, but not a lack of workers. Especially luxury stuff, whats a columbian contractor (figuritive example) care if half a rich pdvsa dudes house is built with stolen materials.

Just like the drug addicts here, they jack copper pipe or wire, roll it down the street and sell it to another construction outfit. Why call the cops when you're getting it for 30% of price.

# ? Jun 16, 2018 21:35

catfry: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Large scale organized industry might be disappearing but that doesn't mean things aren't being made. Cuba is famous for the inventiveness that developed following the US embargo, turning any sort of piece of metal or machinery to new and unintended uses in the face of scarcity of imported goods. done by anyone and everyone, in order to be able to keep mowing the lawn, to keep listening to the radio or have running water, to keep living. Any sort of material or good that has a use becomes valuable in the face of scarcity, and any sort of fixed installation becomes potential prey for scavenging.

# ? Jun 16, 2018 21:38

Arkane: Dec 19, 2006; by R. Guyovich

Tragedy in Caracas, 17 dead, many trampled

Sounds like the lack of infrastructure exarcerbated the tragedy

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-club/tear-gas-explosion-at-caracas-club-kills-17-people-minister-idUSKBN1JC0ON?il=0

quote:

CARACAS (Reuters) - At least seventeen people died at a Caracas club early on Saturday morning when a person activated a tear gas grenade inside, Venezuela’s interior minister Nestor Reverol said.

Over 500 people were at a party at the Los Cotorros club in the middle-class El Paraiso neighborhood when the device went off at about 3 a.m. during a fight between several people, causing a stampede towards the exits, Reverol said on state TV.

Eleven people suffocated to death when the gas filled the club’s confined space, said Noris Villanueva, an autopsy assistant at the local Perez Carreno Hospital, who examined their bodies. It was not clear how the other six died.

Eight of those who died were younger than 18, Reverol said, and five people were injured.

Reverol said authorities had arrested 7 people and the investigation was ongoing.

“The government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, led by President Nicolas Maduro, deplores this unfortunate event. We send our condolences to the families,” he said.

The club, a two-story red brick building, was empty later on Saturday morning and there was no police presence outside, according to a Reuters reporter there.

“We haven’t received a response from anybody, neither from the police nor the doctors,” Nilson Guerra, the father of one victim, said at the hospital.

He only knew his 19-year-old son Luis had died because he had seen him in the morgue. Another son of his had been hospitalized.

Homicide rates in Venezuela have shot up during the country’s spiral into economic crisis and political meltdown and many Caracas residents refuse to go out at night due to security fears.

There were almost 27,000 violent deaths last year, making Venezuela proportionally the world’s second most murderous nation after El Salvador, according to a local crime monitoring group.

The homicide rate in Caracas alone was 104 per 100,000 people, the Venezuelan Observatory of Violence said. Authorities say non-governmental groups inflate figures to create paranoia and tarnish Maduro’s socialist government.

# ? Jun 16, 2018 22:34

MaxxBot: Oct 6, 2003; you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!

https://twitter.com/coweddle/status/1007771336289202178?s=19

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:18

Pharohman777: Jan 14, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Can't wait for the colombian fashion show where Bolivar dresses, hats and handbags are shown off.

At least its a use for the currency that Venezuelan migrants can get actual life nesscesities with.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 17:04

tsa: Feb 3, 2014

Chomskyan posted:

Also this is good, and contains some left-wing critiques of Maduro near the end

https://twitter.com/thisishellradio/status/1001536600034115584

Ah yes, might as well double down after being shown the policies were complete failures.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 17:26

Homeroom Fingering: Apr 25, 2009; The secret history (((they))) don't want you to know

MaxxBot posted:

https://twitter.com/coweddle/status/1007771336289202178?s=19

Sweet I bought a swan made of hundreds. *Looks around* Um I mean terrible, terrible thing...

# ? Jun 18, 2018 23:23

I dont know: Aug 9, 2003; That Guy here...

tsa posted:

Ah yes, might as well double down after being shown the policies were complete failures.

They are failures in the sense that they have driven the country to ruin. But that doesn't matter. The actual goal, making it remarkably simple for the well connected few to embezzle unlimited money, is a huge success.

# ? Jun 19, 2018 01:15

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Yesterday, PSUV vice president Diosdado Cabello became the president of Maduro's Constituent Assembly, and arguably the most powerful man in the country. This is because the Constituent Assembly legislates unchallenged--even by the Supreme Court--as per the Venezuelan constitution. The point of the Constituent Assembly is to draft a new constitution, and until it does it has unlimited power. As you can imagine, the Assembly has made zero progress towards drafting the new constitution, and is instead rubber-stamping the whims of the PSUV/Maduro.

You might also remember that the Constituent Assembly was formed last year on July 30 in a process so fraudulent that even the company that provided the voting machines for the election said that the results that the regime announced were made up.

Cabello's appointment comes after the previous president of the Constituent Assembly, Delcy Rodriguez, was named vice president of the republic last week.

In another bit of news, Maduro gave a speech yesterday in which he said that he thinks it funny that people might consider him a dictator. He said:

quote:

It makes me laugh to think that I could be a dictator. Could you imagine Maduro being a dictator? (�) the people wouldn�t stand for a dictator or a dictatorship by anyone.

# ? Jun 20, 2018 17:04

tsa: Feb 3, 2014

In something like 10 5 years the amount of calories daily min wage work could purchase has gone from ~~50,000~~ 57,000 to 900. That is utterly astounding, like NK in the 90s level of bad (in terms of decline- Venezula isn't currently poorer than 1995 NK but it was much richer at the peak). Countries with far greater police control and far better economic situations have undergone regime-ending levels of protest (or required massive forign intervention to stay afloat)-- tbqh it's a bit of a mystery that Venezuelans have been so mute in their response to the decline vs other countries.

With the arab spring you had poo poo go down in countries that didn't even have a memory or tradition of protest, it's not like latin america lacks for revolutionary spirit.

From The Indicator podcast on Venezula :

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=621563128

quote:

HAUSMANN: For example, the U.S. has been traumatized by the Great Recession of 2008, 2009, et cetera. Well, that recession is probably a tenth the size of what happened in Venezuela.

...

GARCIA: Take a typical Venezuelan worker, someone who makes the minimum wage. If he spent every single bolivar from his wage on that cheapest food available, how many calories could he buy in one day? Here is the incredible and frankly devastating answer from Ricardo.

HAUSMANN: This is a calculation that went from buying 57,000 calories a day in 2012 to buying less than 900 calories today.

VANEK SMITH: To put that 900 calories in context, in the United States, you can buy more than 100,000 calories in one day on the minimum wage. So Venezuelan people are starving. And Ricardo told us about a couple of other similar statistics that also tell this story.

HAUSMANN: The other thing we did is we measured it just in eggs. How many eggs can you buy? Well, before, you know, in a day you could buy several dozen eggs. Now you can buy two eggs. That's it - two eggs. And that was important for us to calculate because it's not just calories. It's also proteins that people need.

VANEK SMITH: The inevitable result of this has been that Venezuelans are losing a lot of weight. A survey from three universities in Venezuela found that the average Venezuelan lost 24 pounds last year because they could not afford to eat. And hundreds of thousands of children are at risk of dying from starvation and malnutrition.

...

VANEK SMITH: The situation has become so intolerable that a staggering number of Venezuelans are just leaving the country. Ricardo and his colleagues estimate that almost 10 percent of the Venezuelan population emigrated in the past year. That is almost 3 million people.

GARCIA: If we were to try to analogize that to it happening in the United States, for instance, where there's 300 and something million, that would be the equivalent of 30 million Americans leaving the country every single year. This is astonishing. And I'm wondering if there's any precedent for this.

HAUSMANN: I mean, this is a migration of Syrian proportions. But in Syria, it's people fleeing, you know, insecurity, people fleeing a war, people fearing imminent death. In Venezuela, it must be something as serious as fearing imminent death to generate that magnitude of an outflow.

It would make more sense if this happened over a couple decades, boiling frog and all that, but 5 loving years? Perhaps the level of emigration partially explains it because presumably that is mostly young people who are normally the ones leading or at the forefront of protest movements. I would assume the lack of sectarianism and the overall homogeneity of Venezuelan society also plays a role.

tsa fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jun 22, 2018

# ? Jun 22, 2018 01:51

Comrayn: Jul 22, 2008

The liquor store had some Venezuelan rum for $5 off in America�s latest attack of the economic war.

# ? Jun 26, 2018 15:54

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

This is making the rounds:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-27/inside-the-failed-plot-to-overthrow-venezuelan-president-nicolas-maduro

# ? Jun 28, 2018 06:50

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

ronya posted:

This is making the rounds:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-27/inside-the-failed-plot-to-overthrow-venezuelan-president-nicolas-maduro

That's a really great scoop and a fascinating read! There has been an increase in the number of military service members arrested on conspiracy-related charges this year, and now we know why. Between January and late May, at least 40 service members were arrested.

I also found the connection to Maria Corina Machado to be interesting. A few weeks ago the regime started to ratchet up the pressure against her, and suggested that she was involved in a plot to overthrow Maduro. As the article suggests, this must have been the plot. What's really interesting is the fact that Machado is still free. If she really were connected to the plot, I think that the regime would have picked her up already because she's a high-profile opposition leader and arguably the most radical of the big names still free.

When I first heard her name floating around in the news a few weeks ago, I dismissed it as non-news because Machado has been accused before of being involved in a plot to assassinate Maduro, and that turned out to be a complete fabrication by the regime. Back in May-June 2014, Diosdado Cabello went on TV to say that they had e-mails from Machado's account in which she discussed plans to kill Maduro and other high-profile PSUV officials. In July, a cyber-security expert working on the case on behalf of one of the accused contacted Google, and Google confirmed that the e-mails did not exist on their servers, so they were forgeries. After that revelation, the regime quietly abandoned the accusations.

# ? Jun 28, 2018 15:38

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Why do you think the government sometimes cares when it�s fabrications are called out? It�s kind of strange how sometimes they don�t give a poo poo, like all those "terrorists" arrested with Ak47s and grenades in their cars, while other times they back off when it�s shown to be completely falsified. Or do they just have such bad Trump-like ADD that they forgot they ever said something?

# ? Jun 28, 2018 16:42

Pharohman777: Jan 14, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

https://twitter.com/GamingAndPandas/status/1012848614018777089

https://twitter.com/CaptainAugus/status/1012850020230582272

https://twitter.com/OldSaintRiot/status/1012848358942113792

https://twitter.com/HaruspexOfHell/status/1012841940176588801

So there is some sort of twitter fight going on between tankies and people who actually know how horrid everything is/actual venezuelans.

Its a long, long series of reply chains.

https://twitter.com/deathwish9x_XBL/status/1012546531583516673

https://twitter.com/KalebPrime/status/1012554098892312576

https://mobile.twitter.com/deathwish9x_XBL/status/1012555894826110976

https://mobile.twitter.com/ComradeStar/status/1012556695770402816

https://twitter.com/Pajazzel/status/1012560531578871808

# ? Jun 30, 2018 02:27

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

God that Solidarity Forever person is the absolute worst. I want to believe that it's a parody/troll account, but I'm sure it's true. A loving jet-set party girl who's advocating world communism (???).

# ? Jun 30, 2018 20:26

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Saladman posted:

Why do you think the government sometimes cares when it�s fabrications are called out? It�s kind of strange how sometimes they don�t give a poo poo, like all those "terrorists" arrested with Ak47s and grenades in their cars, while other times they back off when it�s shown to be completely falsified. Or do they just have such bad Trump-like ADD that they forgot they ever said something?

I asked myself this question a lot when I first started following Venezuelan developments closely about four years ago.

I think that part of the answer lies in the fact that no one in power today faces any repercussions for anything that they say. Maduro, Cabello, and other big wigs routinely tell monumental lies on television and at public events, and there are never any consequences. This is partly due to the fact that the dictatorship exercises full control over all branches of government*, so we don't even have the institutional language to hold politicians accountable for what they say.

*: The legislative branch now exists as Maduro's Constituent Assembly. The National Assembly is completely toothless now.

# ? Jun 30, 2018 21:42

Der Waffle Mous: Nov 27, 2009; In the grim future, there is only commerce.

I keep seeing this point brought up on twitter but what actual international sanctions are there on Venezuela?

I know there are the various sanctions on financial dealings with individual venezuelans. IE: "socialists" who made themselves megarich off the state but that's about where my knowledge ends, and cursory googling just keeps making mentions of those.

# ? Jul 1, 2018 16:00

Feinne: Oct 9, 2007; When you fall, get right back up again.

Der Waffle Mous posted:

I keep seeing this point brought up on twitter but what actual international sanctions are there on Venezuela?

I know there are the various sanctions on financial dealings with individual venezuelans. IE: "socialists" who made themselves megarich off the state but that's about where my knowledge ends, and cursory googling just keeps making mentions of those.

I vaguely remember talk of sanctioning the PDVSA but I'm not sure that actually happened because really why do you need to sanction something they've done such a good job running right into the ground.

EDIT: Survey says as of late May there are indeed sanctions in place against Venezuela in the US. https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/pages/venezuela.aspx

So right now US entities aren't allowed to lend the Venezuelan government money if I'm reading it right. You're still allowed to do business with them but you can't for example buy their debt at the moment.

Feinne fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jul 1, 2018

# ? Jul 1, 2018 19:17

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

There are two kinds of sanctions in place against the Maduro regime today:

Targeted sanctions against regime officials: This is the most common type of sanction in effect today. Canada, the United States, and the European Union all have sanctions against named regime officials. In general, these sanctions do three things: 1) They ban the named officials from entering the jurisdiction; 2) they freeze any financial asset the named officials might have in the jurisdiction; and 3) they prohibit any citizen of the jurisdiction from conducting business with the named officials. There are dozens of officials named in these sanctions, and they're all high-ranking members of the regime. They include Nicolas Maduro, Diosdado Cabello, Tarek William Saab, Tibisay Lucena--all of the big names.
Broader sanctions against economic/financial instruments: The United States and the EU have also levied sanctions that target specific financial/economic instruments. The ones that I can remember right now are the US sanctions against the Petro (the regime's crypto-coin) and against trading new Venezuelan bonds (as pointed out by Felinne), and EU sanctions against selling weapons to Venezuela. Venezuela is also part of Trump's travel ban, but the measure only applies to the workers of five regime ministries and their family members.

Overall, the weight of the sanctions so far is on named regime officials. The sanctions that are most likely to have a negative impact on the country as a whole are Trump's sanctions on Venezuelan bonds. Trump has also allegedly floated the idea of sanctioning PDVSA, but that hasn't happened yet. As Feinne said, PDVSA is doing an incredibly job destroying itself, so there's really no need to help it along.

# ? Jul 1, 2018 19:57

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

So uh. . . I might have been wildly off on my assessment of Trump's policy preferences regarding Venezuela.

Paracaidas posted:

Did I miss discussion on this? Because
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1014378637561393154

quote:
As a meeting last August in the Oval Office to discuss sanctions on Venezuela was concluding, President Donald Trump turned to his top aides and asked an unsettling question: With a fast unraveling Venezuela threatening regional security, why can�t the U.S. just simply invade the troubled country?

Hopefully someone was present to chill him out!

quote:
In an exchange that lasted around five minutes, McMaster and others took turns explaining to Trump how military action could backfire and risk losing hard-won support among Latin American governments to punish President Nicolas Maduro for taking Venezuela down the path of dictatorship, according to the official. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the discussions.

But Trump pushed back. Although he gave no indication he was about to order up military plans, he pointed to what he considered past cases of successful gunboat diplomacy in the region, according to the official, like the invasions of Panama and Grenada in the 1980s.

So he's still dumb, but at least the message probably took?

quote:
But shortly afterward, he raised the issue with Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos, according to the U.S. official. Two high-ranking Colombian officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to avoid antagonizing Trump confirmed the report.

Then in September, on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly, Trump discussed it again, this time at greater length, in a private dinner with leaders from four Latin American allies that included Santos, the same three people said and Politico reported in February.

The U.S. official said Trump was specifically briefed not to raise the issue and told it wouldn�t play well, but the first thing the president said at the dinner was, �My staff told me not to say this.� Trump then went around asking each leader if they were sure they didn�t want a military solution, according to the official, who added that each leader told Trump in clear terms they were sure.

# ? Jul 4, 2018 07:52

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

Heh, reminds me of the time Ch�vez ordered 10 tank bataillons to be moved to the Colombian border on his TV show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4VtvsGVXeY

# ? Jul 4, 2018 08:12

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

For the second time in two months, the inmates inside El Helicoide have mutinied and are now in control of the prison.

The prisoners have been releasing videos on Twitter since yesterday morning. They are demanding that each one of their cases are reviewed immediately and individually, since some of the prisoners have transfer or release orders that the SEBIN are simply ignoring to carry out.

El Helicoide is the name of the building in Caracas that houses the headquarters of the regime's political police, the SEBIN. The building has an underground prison that is known colloquially as La Tumba (The Tomb). There are probably about 200 prisoners in El Helicoide, and at least 10 of them are political prisoners.

Here's a video of the prisoners making their demands. The video was recorded yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXASSd-ZWqQ

quote:

Man: Today is July 10, and it�s 7:30 in the morning. The situation here is one in which the prisoners are in complete control of this facility. We have only one clear and irrevocable request: we want the truth commission to come here to this facility, that they set themselves up here in El Helicoide and analyse [our cases] case-by-case.

Those who have release orders should be freed immediately; those whose conditions have to be revised should have their conditions revised; those who should be transferred to hospital should be transferred to hospital; those who should be taken to SAIME [the Venezuelan migration control office] to be deported to their country should be taken to SAIME to be deported to their country.

The Truth Commission is the only [body] that can solve our problems today.

The Truth Commission is a body that is attached to Maduro's Constituent Assembly. The Commission is nebulous even by regime standards, but generally speaking it has broad powers to do things like, for example, order people released from prison. It's supposed to investigate "political violence" in the country since 1999, but because it's made up of hand-picked regime figures, you can guess what those investigations might look like.

Unrelated, this video below was making the rounds on Twitter recently. It shows a "perrera" (literally, "dog kennel"), which are increasingly common sights on Venezuelan streets. Perreras are cargo trucks that have been re-purposed to carry human passengers, since approximately 90% of all public transportation units in the country are out of service due to chronic shortages of everything from repair parts to tires. As you can imagine, perreras are not a safe method of transportation.

The video below shows dazed people stumbling out of a perrera that has almost tipped over:

https://twitter.com/VENE00080/status/1016470829834604544

quote:

Woman Recording: We have to record and report this, because this is a problem that was bound to happen. This was bound to happen. It was bound to happen.

How much longer will this go on? People are getting used to this. We have to report this. There are pregnant women [here] and newborns, women with newborns. We�re here in San Diego, in front of El Poblado. In front of El Poblado, in front of the shopping mall.

Look, women with newborns. How much longer will this go on? We�re here in San Diego. We need [public] transportation here. These are people with jobs. Look: these are workers, elderly people, How much longer will this go on? We�re here in Carabobo state. How much longer will this go on? How much longer will we put up with this? How much longer?

Look: students, injured people. This is too much.

In another bit of news, Mexico's incoming minister of foreign affairs said the other day that under AMLO, the country would take a "policy that respects non-intervention". According to Mexico's El Universal, this would include measures like "going to the Organization of American States" or "denouncing events in other countries". In other words, the broadest possible interpretation of the term.

Squalid posted:

So uh. . . I might have been wildly off on my assessment of Trump's policy preferences regarding Venezuela.

Hopefully someone was present to chill him out!

So he's still dumb, but at least the message probably took?

I don't think I will ever wrap my ahead around how awful Trump is.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 15:01

Dizz: Feb 14, 2010; L L

Weren't there some videos of Venezuelans saying that the starvation thing was not true? or was that literally in one place where hyperinflation wasn't affected or they were insanely rich?

# ? Jul 12, 2018 02:43

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Dizz posted:

Weren't there some videos of Venezuelans saying that the starvation thing was not true? or was that literally in one place where hyperinflation wasn't affected or they were insanely rich?

I'm not sure which video(s) you might be referring to, but I'll say a couple of things about the nutritional/healthcare crisis and hyperinflation:

Inflation affects currency, so anyone trying to use Bolivares is going to be affected by inflation.The annualized inflation rate (June 2017 to June 2018) is 46,305%. Venezuela is in a hyperinflationary spiral, which means that the Bolivar is losing so much value so quickly that the math that governs the currency just isn't making much sense anymore. Prices are doubling approximately once every 26 days.
It is a fact that Venezuela is suffering from a food crisis that is resulting in starvation for a significant amount of people. The Maduro regime maintains that there is no crisis in Venezuela, and so it does not care to make statistics on the crisis publicly available (and it's not clear to me that they care to track these figures, even for their own internal purposes). A couple of points on this:

- Back in January, UNICEF said that it was seeing "clear signs" of malnutrition in Venezuela, but that it was unable to make a thorough assessment of the situation "because of very limited official health or nutrition data".

- A joint survey by three of the country's universities found that in 2017, 89.4% of Venezuelans said that they did not earn enough money to buy food they need; 79.8% said that they had to eat less because they did not have enough food at home; 78.6% said that food shortages resulted in them not being able to buy food when they needed; 61.2% said that they have gotten used to going hungry; and 64% of Venezuelans lost weight (an average of 11 kilograms) due to not having enough food to eat. These are just a few of the figures that the survey, which is called ENCOVI, revealed.

- The New York Times published a really great piece in December on the food crisis in the country. I highly recommend it.

In short, there may be video(s) out there of people saying that there is no hunger in Venezuela, but they would be wrong. There is overwhelming, objective, irrefutable evidence demonstrating that Venezuela is currently experiencing the worst food crisis in its modern history.

# ? Jul 12, 2018 03:47

Dizz: Feb 14, 2010; L L

Chuck Boone posted:

.

Good reads all around. I don't understand why people keep using the "you like socialism? WHAT ABOUT VUVUZELA" excuse though when this seems like it's mostly the cause of mismanaged funds and a failure to properly rectify it. Am I just missing something here?

# ? Jul 12, 2018 04:57

caberham: Mar 18, 2009; by Smythe; Grimey Drawer

So um, with this current trend of misery and starvation, how long can Venezuela hold out for?

Forgive me for being crass, how much depopulation through migration, starvation, and death does Venezuela need to go through the stabilize the country?

And how much resources does Venezuela need to recover?

I�m asking about this sensitive issue because China suffered mass starvation and a robbed generation during the 60�s, the country needed at least 25 years of economic miracle. Culturally some of the old survivors are still hosed up.

I supposed the regime could change and region destabilize which will throw everything off. I just assume that Maduro and the regime will still be in power like North Korea

caberham fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jul 12, 2018

# ? Jul 12, 2018 05:46

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# ? May 30, 2024 10:34

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

caberham posted:

So um, with this current trend of misery and starvation, how long can Venezuela hold out for?

Forgive me for being crass, how much depopulation through migration, starvation, and death does Venezuela need to go through the stabilize the country?

And how much resources does Venezuela need to recover?

I�m asking about this sensitive issue because China suffered mass starvation and a robbed generation during the 60�s, the country needed at least 25 years of economic miracle. Culturally some of the old survivors are still hosed up.

I supposed the regime could change and region destabilize which will throw everything off. I just assume that Maduro and the regime will still be in power like North Korea

What Venezuela mainly needs as far as immediate fix, is to fix the oil infrastructure. Because without that they have no way to afford to do anything else or stabilize the country.

# ? Jul 12, 2018 06:05

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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