|
gimme the GOD drat candy posted:whoa, that's a super harsh take on the lion, the witch and the wardrobe. Even in the ones I've liked I've started getting upsetti at how many times the medieval fantasy people are amazed at the hero for inventing shampoo.
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 18:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 21:14 |
|
|
Dang those shoujo isekai are ao much better than the trash ones for dudes. And all the guys in them are so 
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 18:35
|
|
|
Mighty Dicktron posted:Don't sleep on Bakarina, by the way, it's extremely fun. The main character is an incredibly oblivious sweetheart, and it's pretty funny at times. There's also a similar one where the girl resurrects in the same situation, except she's plopped into the middle of the climax of the story as the antagonist. It deals with what she does after the game's ending in that world. Can't remember the name, and am at work so I can't check. But it's really good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 18:49
|
|
|
Sharkopath posted:Even in the ones I've liked I've started getting upsetti at how many times the medieval fantasy people are amazed at the hero for inventing shampoo. the concept of a person from an enlightened, superior society (lol) introducing the products of that society to a less developed one is old as hell. trashy old pulp fiction about white saviors are exactly the same as those wn's where some kid with absolutely no talents or specialized knowledge finds fame and fortune based on such traits as 'has black hair', 'lives in a house', or 'owns a cell phone'. the isekai part is just window dressing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 18:52
|
|
|
Mostly I put that down to a lot of folks not realizing how old some concepts are, like basic shampoo or Heron's executive toy steam engine. (The steam engine Heron created was commonly used by medieval priests as a curiosity - it was a small device with a tiny water tank and some spheres which'd spin if you put it to a candle. It was absolutely useless for mechanical purposes because it wasn't possible to regulate the speed or pressure and, if enlarged, had a tendency to explode.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
As with all writing tricks, the question is: what is the author trying to say. C.S. Lewis was trying to create philosophical, theological, and thematic parallels between our world and his - having heroes both of the world, and outside it. Mark Twain was trying to take the piss out of the a certain chivalric romanticism he saw ingrained in southern United States culture, and largely responsible for the cultural attitudes that lead to such things as the preservation of slavery and the break from the Union. I haven't read too many isekai stories so I won't pretend to be an expert, but among the ones I've tried, I've mostly gotten the impression the author is either seeking escapism free from modern sensibilities and social structures ("Check out my harem"), or wants their protagonist to be the smartest man in the room by virtue of common knowledge we tend to take for granted ("Check this out, it's called shampoo"), the hardest parts - invention, experimentation, actual work - having already been completed by his time. He gets to promote something he had no hand in making, and his monopoly on information means he gets to tout it as though he invented it, and thus receives excess benefit relative to his actual investment. Also, as Mors pointed out, a lot of authors tend to underestimate just how certain concepts are. Did you know the Japanese had simple, clockwork automations as early as the 17th century? Someone from the real world getting sucked into a fantastical one can still work, but the trend has been towards escapist wish-fulfillment - and not a very interesting wish, at that.. As a rule, I'd wager fantasy stories that don't bother throwing in someone from our world are stronger as a result of not trying to play to the audience surrogate. Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jul 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
it's not an innately flawed concept but it appeals a lot to innately flawed people
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 19:24
|
|
|
Sharkopath posted:Even in the ones I've liked I've started getting upsetti at how many times the medieval fantasy people are amazed at the hero for inventing shampoo. Amazing!!! What do you call this? 'Miso'? 'Fermentation'? Until today the members of my tribe have only considered boiling grass and eating it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 19:47
|
|
|
it is great when it is obvious that the author doesn't have the slightest idea of how to cook. so, their stand-in then has the most amazing ability to roast meat over a campfire out of nowhere which wows the degenerate natives who spent their entire lives roasting meat over a campfire.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 20:11
|
|
|
I like the cooking for Fenrir one because it's moreso about new spices and stuff, like teriyaki chicken and whatnot. Also it's environmentally friendly! All that trash has to go somewhere 
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 20:13
|
|
|
Rodenthar Drothman posted:I like the cooking for Fenrir one because it's moreso about new spices and stuff, like teriyaki chicken and whatnot. i like how he doesn't really know how to make sweets so he just buys convenience store junk food instead. said junk food gets equal reactions to his hand-made meals using fresh and occasionally literally magic ingredients.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
Most low brow stories are strongly based on wish fulfillment, isekai or not. And I would say that most good isekai stories are saying interesting things about the current tropes and trends in fantasy novel culture. A large recent trend has been to cast the traditional self fulfillment protagonist as a villain. I would also say, that having a protagonist from our world is not really worse then having a random medieval pig farmer who inexplicably follows all of the writers ingrained moral views. Yes, those stories that need no audience surrogate are better, but that is rare even at the top level of quality.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 20:17
|
|
|
Any isekai recommendations for someone who really enjoyed Problem Children and Tanya the Evil and didn't like any of the stuff linked on the last couple of pages? Untranslated series are fine too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 21:03
|
|
|
It's not so much that Isekai is unique in being escapist fiction, it's that the current era seems to be more heavily dominated by the type of escapism that's centered around giving readers an implacable main character who is borderline a mary sue. Back in the 90s and 00s, the kinds of stories I would see were more typical of Narnia or Alice in Wonderland format, a person traveling to a place while also leaving behind some issue or conflict in the real world only for them to return to the real world after their adventure with the newfound courage/knowledge to confront that thing. So anime like Now and Then, Here and There or Escaflowne. You would still see stories like the John Carter stories (from what I remember of the books) where the main character just stays in their new location but I don't remember them being in the majority these types of stories on either side of the Pacific. Fast forward to some time in the mid-late 00s and reincarnation really started too boom as a plot hook in at least Japanese isekai. Main characters are also given a lot more power to the point of invalidating any actual journey of self discovery, and by extension no responsibility to return too since they are effectively dead as far as Earth is concerned. It's led to so many really basic stories stripped of any journey and replaced with an OPMC who just walks through conflict and dances around their ever growing harem. And that's not to say it's all bad but it's made it so that it's harder for me to find stories that really grip in this genre.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 21:05
|
|
|
tonberrytoby posted:Most low brow stories are strongly based on wish fulfillment, isekai or not. tonberrytoby posted:I would also say, that having a protagonist from our world is not really worse then having a random medieval pig farmer who inexplicably follows all of the writers ingrained moral views. I should also clarify I'm not condemning audience surrogates as a role - one that is often necessary, especially in fantasy, to ground the audience - but "Playing" to that surrogate, and by extension the audience, often results in eye-rolling moments. Of course the boy who blew off school and every responsibility to play fantasy RPGs wakes up in a fantasy RPG world where his singular devotion to that thing lets him coast through any other form of self-improvement or reflection. Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jul 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 21:07
|
|
|
Rodenthar Drothman posted:I like mustache bakarina. This one. It's interesting because eventually the isekai elements start to fade into the background for a political story about the tension between the socially-outcast reformer and her decadent ex-fiance who is a potential heir to the throne.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 21:17
|
|
|
Yeah, the only notable thing that's isekai about that particular story is that the lady invents capitalism and Japanese university education and identifies a bunch of potential products.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 21:20
|
|
|
I mean, she invents chocolate, public education, and double-entry bookkeeping, sure, but nothing beyond like 18th century level. And by and large it's her subordinates that actually create the things.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 21:30
|
|
|
"Girl resurrects as a villainess during her downfall, and has a much better life elsewhere while the nominal hero and love interest ruin the original kingdom" has basically become a genre by now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 21:51
|
|
|
I, for one, would really love to see a manga adaptation of the OG isekai LN -- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 22:00
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:I, for one, would really love to see a manga adaptation of the OG isekai LN -- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. That monkeys paw would lead to merlin being a 300yo loli.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 22:11
|
|
|
As far Isekai goes, the Spider one is practically anti-wish fulfillment. She was reborn in the body of a spider, incapable of communicating with other humans, had to flee from her new mother and siblings in order to avoid being eaten, as well as many other creatures more powerful than her, and is constantly forced to eat foul tasting poisonous creatures in order to survive.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 22:15
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:I, for one, would really love to see a manga adaptation of the OG isekai LN -- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Brought To You By posted:That monkeys paw would lead to merlin being a 300yo loli.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 22:33
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:As far Isekai goes, the Spider one is practically anti-wish fulfillment. She was reborn in the body of a spider, incapable of communicating with other humans, had to flee from her new mother and siblings in order to avoid being eaten, as well as many other creatures more powerful than her, and is constantly forced to eat foul tasting poisonous creatures in order to survive. Ooh, I hadn't read that spider one and it's so good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 22:42
|
|
|
kumoko fulfills the most important wish of all- she has numbers and the numbers go up!
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 22:57
|
|
|
That is a lot of potential quality stuff I haven't seen. Just when I was getting tired of waiting for updates for stuff I have read! Isekai as a genre isn't inherently flawed but that's the same for any genre. No idea is bad, it's how well you execute that idea that's bad. After watching Pacific Rim I got an Isekai story idea in my head that just wouldn't leave until I started writing it down: a dude summoned into another world to become a giant robot to fight in a high-stakes gauntlet because giant robot fights are how that world solves large-scale conflicts instead of wars (like G Gundam.) The Isekai part is so I can throw my frustrations with job hunting/etc. in there and explore what it would be like to be a giant robot  DrSunshine posted:I, for one, would really love to see a manga adaptation of the OG isekai LN -- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Brought To You By posted:That monkeys paw would lead to merlin being a 300yo loli. In a perfect world it'd be disney's Sword in the Stone version of Merlin with guest appearance by Madam Mim.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2018 23:56
|
|
|
Ohh Sword-dad updated.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:13
|
|
|
The A-rank adventurer lady is probably going to die with her cheat death once per day ability on cooldown due to Fran E: isekai discussion has been cool, I never really think deep about the themes of manga, just sort of mindlessly consume in my downtime. Thanks for the posts everyone
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 01:25
|
|
|
EponymousMrYar posted:No idea is bad, it's how well you execute that idea that's bad. I dunno, the "sticking your dick in a power outlet" genre is rather hard to make work well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 03:46
|
|
|
There's also Eliza which is a spin on the reincarnating-as-the-villainess premise, because the girl reincarnates as Eliza as a kid knowing that she's doomed in like 17 years or something because her entire family gets arrested and executed for them being awful nobles who practice some twisted poo poo. So she goes and kills her entire family with poison.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 03:53
|
|
|
EponymousMrYar posted:In a perfect world it'd be disney's Sword in the Stone version of Merlin with guest appearance by Madam Mim. Paracelsus posted:I dunno, the "sticking your dick in a power outlet" genre is rather hard to make work well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 04:20
|
|
|
A:Fellis posted:E: isekai discussion has been cool, I never really think deep about the themes of manga, just sort of mindlessly consume in my downtime. Thanks for the posts everyone Also Argas posted:There's also Eliza which is a spin on the reincarnating-as-the-villainess premise, because the girl reincarnates as Eliza as a kid knowing that she's doomed in like 17 years or something because her entire family gets arrested and executed for them being awful nobles who practice some twisted poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 05:48
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:This one. It's interesting because eventually the isekai elements start to fade into the background for a political story about the tension between the socially-outcast reformer and her decadent ex-fiance who is a potential heir to the throne. Fellis posted:Dang those shoujo isekai are ao much better than the trash ones for dudes. And all the guys in them are so Hello it is me, a grown up man who didnt know about the shojou isekai shaped hole in his heart. Although this was very maou maou yuusha with all the politics, economics, and technology
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 06:13
|
|
|
Does time travel manga count as Isekai? Or is there some other term for it? It's been around a lot longer, and afaik the general quality of work is higher.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 06:15
|
|
|
I like the isekai discussion too, I enjoy it mindlessly but it's been hard to pin down the reasons why it's usually dreck but Seafood put it down very nicely.Bad Seafood posted:I haven't read too many isekai stories so I won't pretend to be an expert, but among the ones I've tried, I've mostly gotten the impression the author is either seeking escapism free from modern sensibilities and social structures ("Check out my harem"), or wants their protagonist to be the smartest man in the room by virtue of common knowledge we tend to take for granted ("Check this out, it's called shampoo"), the hardest parts - invention, experimentation, actual work - having already been completed by his time. He gets to promote something he had no hand in making, and his monopoly on information means he gets to tout it as though he invented it, and thus receives excess benefit relative to his actual investment. So yeah, saying I agree. It's why the LN/manga of the bookworm lady being reincarnated into a girl is pretty fun to read because she has to struggle with figuring out how to make materials which she can write on so that she can hopefully someday make her own books.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 06:53
|
|
|
Artificer posted:Oh. Does it do anything special? It starts to look like a harem at times but he's only ever had eyes for the one girl. The politicking in it is pretty fun too, I like the Powerless King of Gazetta who is just a walking smugface. Also how a huge battle starts up between some factions and the mc just console command spawns a gigantic loving wall in between them when they don't listen to his demand to stop was pretty great.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 06:56
|
|
|
That's about how I expected it to go. Good job, Fran. Fellis posted:The A-rank adventurer lady is probably going to die with her cheat death once per day ability on cooldown due to Fran I don't think that'll happen, but it wouldn't be exactly out of left field if it did. I appreciate the importance of finding deeper meaning in literature of any kind, but it's not something I've ever been keen of doing personally. I just really enjoy stories, whether from books, games, movies or otherwise. As long as it's not boring or overly gross or lewd, I'll probably enjoy it at least a little.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 09:24
|
|
|
gimme the GOD drat candy posted:there's nothing innately bad about isekai, but the scum definitely rises to the top Actually they're innately bad because they're extremely banal fantasies (when they're not offensive) where the always recycled imaginative elements serve as a substitute for anything genuinely interesting. It's the same problem as with genre fantasy in general: managing to make things like dragons and magic completely boring. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jul 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 09:39
|
|
|
Reincarnated as a Butt Pounded by an Office Worker Reincarnated as Vending Machine Pounded in the Butt by a NEET Reincarnated as Sexy Dwarf Smith whom I Freed from Slavery
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 10:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 21:14 |
|
|
To bring things back to manga: Kumo desu ga had an Anime announcement. Though Ariel's character design in the most recent Manga chapter was pretty disappointing. Brought To You By posted:The thing is all those hack writers just go right from the MC seeing the plug to putting their dick in it. They don't bother to develop anything in the situation or even give the outlet a defined character. There's no tension or drama. Just imagine if you saw the MC see the outlet. Then it gets stuck in his mind, the shape of it, the voltage. He starts staring hungrily at the outlet for 5 chapters and then after some emotional buildup he goes for it? It's not groundbreaking writing but it's better than what we already get.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 11:30
|
|