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Pick posted:Why is Voyager so bad Complacency. Its basically an entire show of TNG season 7 where everyone involved was so godamn sure that everyone watching already loved everything they did that they just made a bunch of boring, safe, trite poo poo. Only occasionally did anyone rise above this to make something good. People love to complain about Threshold but Threshold is easily in the top 10 Voyager episodes just because it’s so fuckin weird.
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Jul 14, 2018 20:20
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https://twitter.com/swear_trek/status/1018208604934017024
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Jul 14, 2018 20:55
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I love those.
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Jul 14, 2018 20:57
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Pick I know you don't like Voyager but drat do I wanna see an "alt-Neelix"
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Jul 14, 2018 20:59
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skasion posted:Complacency. Its basically an entire show of TNG season 7 where everyone involved was so godamn sure that everyone watching already loved everything they did that they just made a bunch of boring, safe, trite poo poo. Only occasionally did anyone rise above this to make something good. People love to complain about Threshold but Threshold is easily in the top 10 Voyager episodes just because it’s so fuckin weird. To be honest, most of Voyager's best stuff was being fuckin wierd.
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Jul 14, 2018 21:02
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Yeah Voyager was bad because it had a rad premise but the showrunners were like no, gently caress that, more TNG and didn't really have many new ideas to keep it fresh. It's insulting abandonment of its premise is the very worst thing about it. I wish they hadn't pitched such a needs-to-be-serialized series until, like, now. Voyager's premise with Disco's effects budget and Orville's giving a poo poo would be amazing
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Jul 14, 2018 21:07
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Pick posted:Why is Voyager so bad they recycled rejected TNG scripts for voyager
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Jul 14, 2018 21:15
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The long reign of Berman and Braga was a double edged sword. On the one hand, it gave us 20 years of Star Trek continuity and a shared, consistent visual universe. There was great consistency with the infrastructure--the same offices, writers, crewmembers, soundstages, costumers, etc. On the other hand, it repeated itself and got boring. I'd like to think Manny Coto could have done something to shake things up, but that may be wishful thinking. It's one thing that Doctor Who has a definite advantage with--the new showrunners and Doctors change up the look of the show, from the sets, to the visuals and direction. RTD era Doctor Who doesn't look at all like Moffat Who and Chibnall's version is shaping up to be very different as well. But they're able to do so without rebooting or reimagining the whole premise, the basic alien designs, etc.
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Jul 14, 2018 22:14
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Tunicate posted:they recycled rejected TNG scripts for voyager Sometimes they recycled accepted TNG scripts too! Remember that one episode that's basically A Matter Of Perspective (which yes is a Rashomon rehash) but with Paris instead of Riker?
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Jul 14, 2018 22:31
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Pick posted:Why is Voyager so bad Bad writing was one reason, sure, but it wasn't the only reason. One of the problems was that the show premise pretty much begged for serialization, but that was rejected by the producers for reasons relating to syndication and accessibility for new viewers. There were a bunch of problems with the cast. Robert Beltran was so burned out and hated his character so much (which in part, does have to do with bad writing), he'd deliberately gently caress up in the attempt to get let out of his contract. Garrett Wang had constant disciplinary problems and would have been fired if, between season 3 and 4, a magazine hadn't put him on their sexiest actors list. Kate Mulgrew hated Jeri Ryan. Voyager was also getting a lot of pressure from Paramount, which had pretty much built UPN around the show.
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Jul 14, 2018 22:32
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Timby posted:I had Yesterday's Enterprise on in the background today as I was cleaning, and, you know, as much as everyone bitches about the battle in Generations, that one is so, so, so loving bad. The Enterprise gets pounded at the start, Picard literally orders to hold fire while it re-positions, then they fire one torpedo spread and a few spits of phaser fire. No loving poo poo the ship gets destroyed. The reason the Borg are so deadly (in space at least) is because they're the only guys who don't have some rear end in a top hat everyone has to wait on before doing anything as simple as turning or firing a weapon
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Jul 14, 2018 22:36
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Watching ‘The Changing Face of Evil’. Ezri has really grown on me, she’s got a lot more character than Jadzia, and DeBoer plays her part really well. I can’t fathom Miles and Julian dragging an 8ft model of the Alamo into Quark’s though. I mean, I’m sure they beamed it in, but still.
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Jul 14, 2018 23:58
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Epicurius posted:Bad writing was one reason, sure, but it wasn't the only reason. One of the problems was that the show premise pretty much begged for serialization, but that was rejected by the producers for reasons relating to syndication and accessibility for new viewers. There were a bunch of problems with the cast. Robert Beltran was so burned out and hated his character so much (which in part, does have to do with bad writing), he'd deliberately gently caress up in the attempt to get let out of his contract. Garrett Wang had constant disciplinary problems and would have been fired if, between season 3 and 4, a magazine hadn't put him on their sexiest actors list. Kate Mulgrew hated Jeri Ryan. Voyager was also getting a lot of pressure from Paramount, which had pretty much built UPN around the show. This is very insightful and good, thank you. I'm curious about this cast drama though. More details?
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Jul 15, 2018 00:06
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Sometimes they recycled accepted TNG scripts too! Remember that one episode that's basically A Matter Of Perspective (which yes is a Rashomon rehash) but with Paris instead of Riker? ENT also had the gall/balls to recycle a DS9 script that was Odo-centric, and cast Rene Auberjonois as the guest star!
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Jul 15, 2018 00:17
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I truly love and appreciate the amassed goon knowledge of stuff like this. Unironically. It's just cool.
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Jul 15, 2018 00:21
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I blame Brannon Braga for the first 2 seasons of Enterprise being so meh. He admits in the 50 Year Mission book that he was totally burned out after Voyager, but still took the ENT showrunner job when it was offered. But he said that he checked out pretty early on which you can certainly see in the quality.
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Jul 15, 2018 00:23
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Payndz posted:And then ENT recycled a Voyager script that was broadcast the previous season ('Friendship One' and IIRC 'Terra Nova') - the one where an old Earth probe accidentally hosed up a planet and the residents are not pleased to see Starfleet. Don't forget Voyager ripping off one of otd own plots from a few seasons ago. (Both those ones where they enter a void with no stars and have to form an alliance with other trapped aliens to escape.) The thing that bugged me the most the last time I watched a few episodes was them ripping off a bunch of iconic shots and sequencrs from Best of Both Worlds and First Contact in their Borg episodes. I mean it's bad enough you had to co-opt the Borg, but way to phone in the execution too.
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Jul 15, 2018 00:35
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Don't forget Voyager ripping off one of otd own plots from a few seasons ago. (Both those ones where they enter a void with no stars and have to form an alliance with other trapped aliens to escape.)
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Jul 15, 2018 01:03
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Pick posted:This is very insightful and good, thank you. I'm curious about this cast drama though. More details? Well, with Robert Beltran, it was a matter of him hating the character Chakotay and how he was developed. He felt like, especially starting with Season 4, with Seven of Nine as a new character, and Brandon Braga as a new producer, that he was getting less and less screen time, less and less actual character development. The episodes got very Janeway/Seven/Doctor focused. As he put it, quote:Those three characters were kind of all-seeing, all-knowing, omnipotent, and I think a lot of the tension and drama that was available was lost because you have to really dig hard to find tension in all-knowing, all-seeing characters. They know everything, right? They have all the answers. Or else you have a redundancy of the same scene written over and over and over again, with slight variations. He felt like he didn't have a lot to do other than bestow Indian wisdom and stand on the bridge in these fake dramatic scenes, which he hated. His attitude about that was like, the ships under attack! Will the crew survive? Of course the crew will survive, so it's not interesting, there's no drama. He wanted more episodes that explored his relationships with other characters. He said, basically, in the early episodes, Chakotay had episodes focusing on him and Seska and him and the Captain, and that pretty much went away later on. With the Garrett Wang story, I thought it was in The Fifty Year Mission, but I can't find it. In short, he had a lot of trouble showing up on time for shoots, and then at the end of Season 3, they had decided to bring in Jeri Ryan for the new season, but to do that, they had to let somebody go. Originally, they had decided on Wang, and had even, at the end of the Season 3 finale, Scorpion, had poisoned Harry Kim with this uncurable poison, and he ended the episode in a coma. Then, over the break, People Magazine put him on their list of "50 Most Beautiful People in the World", and so the show got rid of Jennifer Lien instead. The Mulgrew/Ryan thing, Mulgrew wasn't happy with Ryan coming in. There are probably a few reasons, but I think a lot of it is that Mulgrew had gotten a lot of attention and press as "The first female captain", and then all of a sudden, Jeri Ryan came in, young and attractive, they stick her in a catsuit, and all of a sudden, she's the new female face of Voyager, and Mulgrew didn't like that.
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Jul 15, 2018 01:30
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The_Doctor posted:Watching ‘The Changing Face of Evil’. Ezri has really grown on me, she’s got a lot more character than Jadzia, and DeBoer plays her part really well. When I watched it as a kid, I hated Ezri for some reason, but in retrospect I was super wrong.
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Jul 15, 2018 01:34
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:When I watched it as a kid, I hated Ezri for some reason, but in retrospect I was super wrong. You're goddamn right, you were wrong. Ezri was a gift from God.
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Jul 15, 2018 01:36
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:You're goddamn right, you were wrong. Ezri was a gift from God. She was a better character than the plots she was stuck in. When I rewatched DS9, I felt like 90% of Ezri's screen time was romantic plots.
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Jul 15, 2018 01:54
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Most people hated Ezri because she was replacing  ~~*Jadzia*~~ and she was only given a season for us to get to know her.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:04
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I didn't care for Jadzia, so season seven being so heavy-handed about how everyone on the station loved Jadzia just made me spitefully dislike her even more. I didn't dislike Jadzia, but I think Farrell is a mediocre actress and her character very rarely got any meat to chew on that wasn't about some Dax host other than Jadzia.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:07
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I wouldn't blame Farrell, there's nothing in the Jadzia character to make her compelling. You're right that it comes off as fake and sort of condescending that we have to be told how cool and popular she is all the time when the main characteristic of Jadzia is that her actress is super hot. I'm going to ask that we don't take the thread in the stupid, predictable direction where everyone starts virtue signaling about how actually the hottest actress was so-and-so, it's just a fact that Jadzia is played by a hot lady, and that's about all she ever got to do or be.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:10
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Well, the hottest Trek actress was Suzie Plakson, so it's immaterial unless we're doing some impossible Kehy'lar versus Dr. Selar thing.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:15
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Pick posted:I wouldn't blame Farrell, there's nothing in the Jadzia character to make her compelling. You're right that it comes off as fake and sort of condescending that we have to be told how cool and popular she is all the time when the main characteristic of Jadzia is that her actress is super hot. I'm not signaling anything but ezri was way hotter, but that's just a 'type' thing probably. It is funny what you say about everyone having to say how cool jadzia is. She was the Poochy of DS9
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Jul 15, 2018 02:21
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Star Trek has an interesting universe and some cool premises. It's ok if the writing is a little awkward if it's presenting something new and fresh, or introducing an engaging dilemma. For any episode that does not manage to nail that, it is left to ride on the strength of its characters. I'll be honest with you, I don't think the writing of characters in Star Trek has ever been inherently great. It leans almost entirely on the strength of the actors. This ends up being rather unfair to actors who are totally competent but don't bring their own "zing" from home. The characters we think of as "great characters" --or poo poo, just memorable ones!--aren't written particularly better or worse than anyone else, they just have hyper-talented actors or actresses in that role. I honestly think DS9 gets a lot of love based on the acting talents of important characters that isn't necessarily justified by the writing alone. Louise Fletcher, Marc Alaimo, Armin Shimerman, and Jeffrey Combs are loving powerhousing roles that aren't really that great on paper. And on the whole, the guest cast is out of this world. (And yeah no one "likes" Kai Winn but everyone remembers her and remembers her characterization accurately.) Pick fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jul 15, 2018 |
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Jul 15, 2018 02:28
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Jadzia was cool as a Klingaboo with a different view of Klingons than Worf.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:41
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It's also worth comparing the scripts for "good" episodes and "lovely garbage" episodes and trying to identify to what extent that it's the writing vs. acting vs. cinematography that makes one work and not the other. The cinematography in Star Trek is pretty even in the Berman era, so there's often a huge writing v. acting component. Like imagine if you gave a gently caress about the maquis. just imagine that.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:45
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I know people who really really liked Jadzia just because she was a sciency lady and that's underrepresented in media
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Jul 15, 2018 02:49
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cheetah7071 posted:I know people who really really liked Jadzia just because she was a sciency lady and that's underrepresented in media DS9 rarely leaned much on that role, though. They didn't even get a new science officer to replace Jadzia for the final season. Admittedly my perspective is slightly biased in that I greatly preferred Kira as the lead female character on the show. Sisko and Kira, in my opinion, are the heart and soul of the DS9 cast and story. Coupled with how awful both characters' romantic subplots were throughout the series and how well they got along, I wonder why the two never got together (it's probably wanting the black captain to have a black love interest).
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Jul 15, 2018 03:05
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I like that they're just friends, but also you wouldn't want to take Kira from her really compelling romances with that guy and maybe that other guy and then the cardassian collaborator.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:08
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Ezri is better because the writers actually had some semblance of a plan for her that wasn’t just “Sisko’s friend” and “Bashir’s pursuit”. Imagine how boring Jadzia would have been had they never introduced Worf.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:38
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Imagine how boring Jadzia would have been had they never introduced Worf.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:43
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Even with Worf, Jadzia wasn't that good. I never felt like they had any real chemistry. People talk about how unhappy the O'Briens' marriage is but Jesus on my last rewatch of DS9 it felt like for every episode featuring Jadzia and Worf interacting, there was a 90% chance they get in some huge argument and get on the verge of breaking up.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:53
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IMHO Worf's kind of a humorless twat
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Jul 15, 2018 03:54
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Pick posted:IMHO Worf's kind of a humorless twat
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Jul 15, 2018 04:19
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In DS9 Homefront (S04E10, 19:00) I like the idea that they'd still be using horse carriage rides as a novelty like they have in my hometown's downtown area
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Jul 15, 2018 04:19
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Pakled posted:Even with Worf, Jadzia wasn't that good. I never felt like they had any real chemistry. People talk about how unhappy the O'Briens' marriage is but Jesus on my last rewatch of DS9 it felt like for every episode featuring Jadzia and Worf interacting, there was a 90% chance they get in some huge argument and get on the verge of breaking up. A lot of that about the O'Briens is overblown too. There's some times where they have a fight or whatever, but they always remain adults, and loving in a way Jadzia and Worf don't, because their relationship is a lot more juvenile and based almost solely on sex. A lot of the O'Briens' conflicts result from simply not being able to spend enough time together due to their jobs, and that's real life. And the rest is usually weird space poo poo or other highly stressful events.
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Jul 15, 2018 04:26
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