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Charlz Guybon posted:Tons of people don't get it. The American public is the result of the most successful and longest-lived propaganda campaign in world history. There are other examples that were more overt and obvious, more violent, and so on, but in a way that makes the American effort far more insidious. What the totalitarians failed to accomplish in the first half the twentieth century, the American ruling class pulled off almost without anyone noticing.
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Jul 16, 2018 07:02
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Prester Jane posted:So if I am understanding you argument correctly here you are stating that the GOP was able to turn out its base to vote against policy that objectively benefited them? Absolutely, I agree 100% with that. My objection is to DrNutt’s completely whacked-out analysis of 2010. The GOP’s great at tricking the non-rich people in their base, and the Dems are catastrophically awful at communicating that their policies are less-awful for the non-rich. But the last nine years’ worth of elections don’t represent Republicans growing their voter pool, as much as it is the Dems convincing their own base to stay home.
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Jul 16, 2018 07:08
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Majorian posted:Absolutely, I agree 100% with that. My objection is to DrNutt’s completely whacked-out analysis of 2010. The GOP’s great at tricking the non-rich people in their base, and the Dems are catastrophically awful at communicating that their policies are less-awful for the non-rich. But the last nine years’ worth of elections don’t represent Republicans growing their voter pool, as much as it is the Dems convincing their own base to stay home. Then we largely do agree. I would state that my main point in this discussion is that the way to attract the Democratic base into turning out/ growing the base by creating new individuals who identify as Democrats- will require much more than just discussing some shiny new policies. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jul 16, 2018 |
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Jul 16, 2018 07:22
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Prester Jane posted:Then we largely do agree. I would state that my main point in this discussion is that the way to attract the Democratic base into turning out/ growing the base by creating new individuals who identify as Democrats- will require much more than just discussing some shiny new policies. Sure, it's going to take leaders and activists who can connect with those voters and non-voters on an emotional level, and then use that connection to sell those policies. I just don't see much purpose in focusing on how good the Republicans are at convincing voters, when centrist Dems and the party leadership can't be relied upon to put even the tiniest bit of effort into it.
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Jul 16, 2018 07:54
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the thing that blows my mind about that article is there are people that make the effort to vote without even knowing what issues are. why would you bother. i don't follow hockey so i didn't watch the stanley cup finals even when the bruins were in it. i had no skin in the game.
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Jul 16, 2018 13:38
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Groovelord Neato posted:the thing that blows my mind about that article is there are people that make the effort to vote without even knowing what issues are. why would you bother. The cartoons told them it's their obligation as a citizen to vote. The cartoons never said how to vote or why, just that it was bad not to.
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Jul 16, 2018 14:36
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Groovelord Neato posted:why would you bother..
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Jul 16, 2018 14:39
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Think of it this way. Replace "taste in games" with political consciousness. These fuckers buy what's on teevee and complain about how rear end Screed is bad, but keep buying it. Our job is to get them Dunkey, Jim, and hbomb.
Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jul 16, 2018 |
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Jul 16, 2018 14:44
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Because somehow the idiot political class has convinced a large number of Americans that voting is a moral imperative, but neglected to offer them anything they actually want to vote for. They did this on purpose. The alternative is that everyone forments on some low level for some form of embedded liberalism, nation-state economics, or socialism.
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Jul 16, 2018 14:47
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Honestly, you'd have more success with convincing the voters that Republican party politicians are racists. You just have to actually draw the lines and abandon shitlib civility politic. So actually make hay of the fact that Trump's dad was a wartime Nazi sympathizer who Woody Guthrie hated next time.
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Jul 16, 2018 14:52
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EdithUpwards posted:They did this on purpose. The alternative is that everyone forments on some low level for some form of embedded liberalism, nation-state economics, or socialism. Admittedly I may be putting too much faith in Hanlon's Razor.
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Jul 16, 2018 14:58
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They controlled the range of acceptable opinions through censorious bodies such as HUAC, used INS, the FBI, and the NSA to filter for subversives, put everything in private hands, and then told everyone to vote to assuage their guilty conscience. They being a large amalgamation of people with soft power who often hate each other.
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Jul 16, 2018 15:04
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:The American public is the result of the most successful and longest-lived propaganda campaign in world history. Not to poo poo on you but have you ever read about medieval peasants? "Half your crops for your lord because that's what God wants" went on for over 4 centuries. What's really funny though is that those peasants worked less than we do today. It's one of the reasons that model for society endured. https://amp.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacation-medieval-peasant-2016-11 Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jul 17, 2018 |
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Jul 16, 2018 17:50
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https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1019374852829040645 A big old middle finger to anyone who said AOC was being dramatic last week.
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Jul 18, 2018 02:30
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Matt Zerella posted:A big old middle finger to anyone who said AOC was being dramatic last week. The sort of liberals who were making those comments have learned from the Republicans and basically use the Gish gallop when criticizing the left. It doesn't matter to them if something they say is later shown to be wrong, because they can just ignore it and move on to the next talking point.
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Jul 18, 2018 02:40
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If I had a twitter that I used I would talk poo poo to Crowley here. https://twitter.com/JoeCrowleyNY/status/1017404605133553665
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Jul 18, 2018 02:50
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https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/1019342257336602625?s=21 https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/1019342980526813185?s=21
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Jul 18, 2018 05:45
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drilldo squirt posted:If I had a twitter that I used I would talk poo poo to Crowley here.
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Jul 18, 2018 06:38
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twodot posted:I enjoy that in 2018 "I will announce on twitter that I don't want to air specific referenced grievances on twitter" is a real thing. Like in 2 AD were there graffiti of people saying they wouldn't bother to engage in arguments in graffiti? (If there were please share it) Pompeii graffiti is basically ancient Roman shitposting.
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Jul 18, 2018 07:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pompeii graffiti is basically ancient Roman shitposting. Wasn't there also a find where some runes were discovered carved on a rock face that was extremely difficult to get access to. And when the scientists finally managed to get up there and get access to it the runes they basically translated to "This place is really high".
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Jul 18, 2018 07:38
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Ytlaya posted:The sort of liberals who were making those comments have learned from the Republicans and basically use the Gish gallop when criticizing the left. It doesn't matter to them if something they say is later shown to be wrong, because they can just ignore it and move on to the next talking point. Eh, there are plenty of people around here (this forum, not this thread specifically) who thought they were "just being reasonable" a few days ago when this first broke, said none of this mattered and it was silly to bother about it, and said those of us who thought it needed to be dealt with were being emotional and unreasonable. Yet, here we are. Like, even if they're right and it makes no concrete difference in the actual race, just by being on the ballot he's fostering party disunity, opening the door to poo poo lieberman moves like this, and trolling the progressive wing of the party. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 14:53
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Also there's a clear message from the party that is endlessly complaining about third party spoilers saying "it's no big deal" that he is remaining on the ballot especially when you have Dean and Lieberman floating the idea that he screws her from within the party. At the absolute least he needs a public statement saying that anyone that supports him needs to vote for AOC and to rebuke that editorial. At this point it's no longer crazy conspiracy territory and absolutely causing a rift. Just offhandedly saying he isn't running doesn't cut it and is making it clear that they don't respect her or her primary voters. She should be having to run against not only the Republican but Crowley's ghost.
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Jul 18, 2018 14:58
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Radish posted:Also there's a clear message from the party that is endlessly complaining about third party spoilers saying "it's no big deal" that he is remaining on the ballot especially when you have Dean and Lieberman floating the idea that he screws her from within the party. I think I agree with this 100%. The fact that party leadership is actively undermining their own election is loving shameful. Where's Perez, or anyone from the party yelling about this? this essentially: https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1019597404000186369 Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 15:26
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Joe popped out of his hole again to remind us he's totally not running (and of course doesn't mention we should vote for AOC or get his rear end off the ballot). I would buy his bullshit "it's too hard..." excuse if he was strongly endorsing AOC or denouncing the idea that he should run as a spoiler. However he is doing neither. You can't be a potential spoiler and pretend that you are no longer relevent to the election. It's really clear he's hoping that he falls into being reelected if the initial plan wasn't to straight up campaign once the conservative opeds started begging him to. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 16:15
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Andrew Cuomo is going to crush Cynthia Nixon and Dianne Feinstein is going to crush Kevin DeLeon because Dem voters, by and large, are poo poo. Not being productive just lamenting.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:02
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This is the sort of thing that always happens when you stop guillotining politicians for a few centuries. Bring back dueling. At least then they'll kill each other.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:26
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Rent-A-Cop posted:This is the sort of thing that always happens when you stop guillotining politicians for a few centuries. I'm okay with dueling if it can only be done by elected officials. Do they even make modern dueling pistols? Would we make them stick to muzzle loaders, or are we cool with some modern guns being used?
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Jul 18, 2018 17:29
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm okay with dueling if it can only be done by elected officials. Do they even make modern dueling pistols? Would we make them stick to muzzle loaders, or are we cool with some modern guns being used?
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Jul 18, 2018 17:35
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Radish posted:Joe popped out of his hole again to remind us he's totally not running (and of course doesn't mention we should vote for AOC or get his rear end off the ballot). The really big problem is that he doesn't have to actively campaign, anyway. PACs are designed to campaign for someone else without their input. Shittily enough, Crowley isn't the one who gets to decide whether he's running or not unless he gets his name off the ballot. In this day and age, if your name is on the ballot, you're running.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:58
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Odds are democrats are going overtime right now into trying to find dirt on AOC, or just hoping she does something stupid, so that they can go all "welp, we were totally going to support her, but after this, please vote Crowley." He says he's not running because it would look bad, but he is staying in just to hope for that scenario. I guarantee that there will be some leaked internal poll about high negatives or w/e on AOC and people will continue to post serious "maybe it's time to back crowley" stuff.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:48
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joepinetree posted:Odds are democrats are going overtime right now into trying to find dirt on AOC, or just hoping she does something stupid, so that they can go all "welp, we were totally going to support her, but after this, please vote Crowley." Yeah exactly. I think catching him in the act and heading him off makes it looks worse than the original plan of doing it out of no where though. Now people are on guard and he looks like a supreme fucker if he just happens to run. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 19:14
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm okay with dueling if it can only be done by elected officials. Do they even make modern dueling pistols? Would we make them stick to muzzle loaders, or are we cool with some modern guns being used? This would reveal the prodigious talent of the one they would later call "Quick Draw Bernie."
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Jul 18, 2018 19:18
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Donald Trump apparently creamed the poo poo out of Hillary Clinton, figuratively and literally. Meddling or not.
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Jul 18, 2018 19:31
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Andrew Cuomo is going to crush Cynthia Nixon and Dianne Feinstein is going to crush Kevin DeLeon because Dem voters, by and large, are poo poo. Oh hell yeah, back to blaming voters, woo!
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Jul 18, 2018 19:56
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Matt Zerella posted:Oh hell yeah, back to blaming voters, woo! The Democratic party sucks poo poo because its voters largely suck poo poo. They trend toward hearing a nice speech rather than toward having power. I know this, because they continue to consistenly re-elect weak losers who make nice speeches. The evidence is right there. The reason that the GOP is running everything at the national level is because, for all their faults, their voters want power, and merk any politician who doesn't deliver it to them. Regardless of any other factors. Dems continually elect pols who are literally afraid to govern. Now they've been wiped out nationally. They should be blamed, because they're a dumb electorate. Voting for Cuomo - a literal corruption drenched aristocratic machine politician - is dumb as gently caress. Voting for Feinstein - a conservative zillionaire octogenerian warhawk - is dumb as gently caress. The people who are doing this - who are putting these two in the lead - have learned nothing from the last 30 years. Opposite ends of the country, both dumb as gently caress. Edit: you can substitute "superficial, credulous, and appeased by pretty words" for "dumb as gently caress" if it makes you feel better Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 20:02
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The Democratic party sucks poo poo because its voters largely suck poo poo. They trend toward hearing a nice speech rather than toward having power. I know this, because they continue to consistenly re-elect weak losers who make nice speeches. The evidence is right there. *loses elections all the time because the party doesn't stand for anything except technocratic tolerance of lgbt and minorities* Ah yes, it's the voters fault.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:01
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edit: eh gently caress it, this ain't worth discussing further. I came to vent, not to argue. enjoy your fascist dustbowl future
Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 22:51
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I mean, disinformation and voter suppression certainly don't help either. Also, money, with establishment (i.e. terrible) people having a lot more generally, and how much that enables you to reach people, and other factors have the deck stacked greatly in their favor. Voters are pretty dumb, sure, but it's not the biggest factor keeping lovely politicians in power, at least from what I've seen.
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Jul 18, 2018 23:03
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Roland Jones posted:I mean, disinformation and voter suppression certainly don't help either. Also, money, with establishment (i.e. terrible) people having a lot more generally, and how much that enables you to reach people, and other factors have the deck stacked greatly in their favor. Voters being dumb is at least a constant. They've always been dumb, they'll always be dumb. I think people don't realize how much things have been gerrymandered, or how much the vote has actually been suppressed. They see that it's easy for them, as middle class white folks, to get an ID at the local DMV on their day off, and vote in their neighborhood local voting booth. They don't live int he neighborhood where the DMV is an hour away, and only open on the second tuesday of the month. THey don't understand that you can't get an ID in time to meet registration deadlines, and even if you do, the voting rolls somehow magically forgot about you because of a "bug." I personally had my vote thrown out in the CO primary his year because the state decided the signature on the envelope wasn't mine. A month later I got a form in the mail that said, sign this for your vote will count, deadline: 3 days from when I got the drat notice. That kind of thing adds up, and people don't understand just how bad it is.
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Jul 18, 2018 23:09
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Voters being dumb is at least a constant. They've always been dumb, they'll always be dumb. This is why the first step is getting Republican's out of power. Because all of that poo poo is them, Democrats have no interest in suppressing votes because they know that the more people who vote the more elections they win, and the GOP know this as well which is why they engage in so much vote suppression. Then again the sentiments in this thread (Democrats suck) is also a form of vote suppression as all of the negative talk and infighting feeds into the "nothing matters" apathy that leads to low electoral participation period. You want progress on progressive policies. Then you need to work towards a solid sustained Democratic majority to stop the GOP first, then you push the party left. Because it really loving does matter whether someone has a D or an R behind their name. Consider Collins the fact that Maine keeps sending her to the Senate even though by and large they oppose Republican policies because they like her as an individual is part of why we're in this mess today. Yeah Trump being in the White-House is horrible but it would be a hell of a lot less horrible if Collins seat was held by a Democrat and thus took McConnell out of position to control the legislative agenda and rubber stamp whatever poo poo Trump wants. Given the amount of voter suppression and other shady poo poo you know the Republican's and their Russian allies will be up to this year we need every vote we can get to stop them. Even the lovely ones. As far as Crowley and AOC yeah I'd feel a lot better about it if he was more proactive in his support for her. However to be fair shits kind of busy in Washington right now what with Trump trying to sell us all out to the Russians so I can see how he might have other things on his plate. Now if he were some blue dog pos DINO I would probably be more in the  camp but he's not. If someone who actual democrats gave a gently caress about was writing OP eds I'd also be a bit more worried about it. But we're talking about Lieberman here so the most likely outcome of him coming out against AOC is to drive up her support. So it's definitely not time for the great freak out, at least not with regard to that election. If you are really worried about it then email/write/call Crowley to come out more strongly in favor of AOC and make it more clear that he fully supports her. Now if you are all keeping your moaning here just to vent your frustration great, but please do not spread that crap out in the greater electorate when we need every loving vote we can scrape together to be able to arrest the slide towards Fascism. Priorities people, we're never going to get universal healthcare if the Fascists win, well unless you are white as racists seem to be far more in favor of socialism when the brown people don't also benefit from it.
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