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ilkhan posted:Isn't that the model Y? ya, if Tesla can avoid loving up severely and get their poo poo together not sure why they went after the 3 before the Y in the first place
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Jul 17, 2018 23:31
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:just for the record the Kona is not available for sale and has not been priced, christ, why are you loving idiots making me defend Tesla Looks like the norwegian price is ~36K USD for the base model, ~39K for the all-features model. It's listed with a 64kwh battery, but the US version is rated for "250 miles" at 117MPGe, which would require a 72kwh battery so I'm not sure those prices will directly translate. If they do, then it looks good. Qwijib0 fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Jul 17, 2018 |
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Jul 17, 2018 23:34
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Would we count nationwide models only, or models with limited US release? It looks like there's just over a dozen car models currently if we count cars only available on one or more coasts. But FistEnergy said "EV models" so don't forget to count the dozen motorcycles already available, and do we want to include electric scooters? New topic: I've been idly plotting out EV trips around here for a 100-mile-range vehicle (Zero SR). It looks like if I want to go from home (Denver) to Mt Rushmore there's a ~200 mile gap between J1772 stations, so I'd have to carry a 7lb. portable EVSE (NEMA 14-50 to J1772) and wait a few hours in some hopefully-friendly RV parks. Things are still pretty adventurous out here for a vehicle like that, and it's crazy how much just a little more charging presence will change things. EDIT: Here's the kind of trip I'm thinking of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhTFnIRreLg Ulf fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 17, 2018 |
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Jul 17, 2018 23:37
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:ya, if Tesla can avoid loving up severely and get their poo poo together Model 3 is cheap, model y is cheaper?
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Jul 18, 2018 01:42
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:not sure why they went after the 3 before the Y in the first place It could be they deliberately went with the one that would be less popular, leaving the Model Y for after they had gotten some practice with high-volume production (and therefore would be able to start meeting the demand for it in a timely manner). After all, if they're already selling more cars than they can make, what good would it do to sell even more? http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-cancellations-hamburgers-2017-8 quote:"It's like if you're a restaurant and you're serving hamburgers, and there's like an hour-and-a-half wait for hamburgers — do you really want to encourage more people to order more hamburgers?" Musk said. Ulf posted:Would we count nationwide models only, or models with limited US release? It looks like there's just over a dozen car models currently if we count cars only available on one or more coasts. But FistEnergy said "EV models" so don't forget to count the dozen motorcycles already available, and do we want to include electric scooters? If the overall goal is to see where we're at in terms of bringing EVs into the mainstream, then we should probably exclude limited-release models (many of which are more for PR than becoming a serious competitor in the EV market). Likewise, we probably shouldn't count anything that can't do much of anything you couldn't do with a bicycle (though I suppose you could count highway-legal motorcycles).
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Jul 18, 2018 03:30
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I will eat my hat if there are 100 battery EV only models that you can go out there and buy in 2020. Right now I count: 3, S, X, Bolt, Leaf, can you still buy a 500e? eGolf, Focus Electric, uhhh what else? That makes eight? I'm surprised that Three Olives let you forget about the i3. Anyway, all that article said was "EV," and I absolutely believe that by 2020 you will be able to buy a hundred different street-legal electric vehicles that can drive in all uses cases on battery power alone. That includes EREVs like the Volt, plug-in hybrids that can stay in EV mode for a limited time like the Prius Prime, fuel cell cars like the Mirai, a dozen or so different electric motorcycles that are already on sale, and so on.
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Jul 18, 2018 03:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I will eat my hat if there are 100 battery EV only models that you can go out there and buy in 2020. Right now I count: 3, S, X, Bolt, Leaf, can you still buy a 500e? eGolf, Focus Electric, uhhh what else? That makes eight? You can add: Kia Soul EV Smart EV i3 Mitsubishi I-Miev Hyundai Ioniq EV
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Jul 18, 2018 04:59
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Sagebrush posted:I'm surprised that Three Olives let you forget about the i3. Including the litany of things you listed that are not ZEV's, yea there could 100 by 2022, but battery alone? No.
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Jul 18, 2018 06:54
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How many genuine competitor vehicles to Tesla's are either out or going into production any time soon? i.e. long range consumer BEVs. The only one I can think of is the I Pace. Apparently you can order one of those now, I don't know if they are shipping them yet though?
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Jul 18, 2018 08:45
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I forgot about the Kona and Niro. where i will go to the mat for Tesla is that they have by far the best sales model in the industry. when john q public walks in to a Hyundai or Kia dealership (which are loving dire places that have only just maybe started to climb out of the 10-year unlimited warranty cheap credit buy-here-pay-here buyer) that mother fucker is going to tell him to buy a Sportage or a Tucson or whatever. tesla has a huge advantage because they don't have a dedicated nationwide sales force of retards actively trying to convince customers not to buy electric cars. this is a big problem with the Bolt, too! At least in non-US markets Hyundai Ioniq EV and Renault Zoe. Edit: gently caress, another page with much more complete lists.. Qwijib0 posted:Looks like the norwegian price is ~36K USD for the base model, ~39K for the all-features model. It's listed with a 64kwh battery, but the US version is rated for "250 miles" at 117MPGe, which would require a 72kwh battery so I'm not sure those prices will directly translate. If they do, then it looks good. Do these prices include VAT or other taxes? El Grillo posted:How many genuine competitor vehicles to Tesla's are either out or going into production any time soon? i.e. long range consumer BEVs. The only one I can think of is the I Pace. Apparently you can order one of those now, I don't know if they are shipping them yet though? Not really genuine competitors as they are all cheaper than Teslas, but at least Bolt, Zoe, Kona, Niro, 2019 Leaf. I think all of these do at least 200 miles on a charge. DoLittle fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 09:10
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El Grillo posted:How many genuine competitor vehicles to Tesla's are either out or going into production any time soon? i.e. long range consumer BEVs. The only one I can think of is the I Pace. Apparently you can order one of those now, I don't know if they are shipping them yet though? Every ICE powered car on the road is a genuine competitor vehicle, and Tesla still has yet to get changing infrastructure to a state that the benefits aren't overwhelming in much of the US.
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Jul 18, 2018 09:15
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DoLittle posted:
EVs are exempt both for the near future. So the prices are fairly close, at least on Teslas where the S75D starts at $76600 in Norway vs $74500 in the US. DoLittle posted:Not really genuine competitors as they are all cheaper than Teslas, but at least Bolt, Zoe, Kona, Niro, 2019 Leaf. I think all of these do at least 200 miles on a charge. The 3 is supposed to be an affordable consumer car, so I think those are fair comparisons. The Leaf will most likely release a 60 kWh model soon, I would expect the Ioniq gets a bump to the Kona packs as well.
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Jul 18, 2018 09:59
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You know, it's kind of weird how everyone seems to hang on every one of Musk's words. Like, I get there's a whole "what's crazy Elon going to say next?" thing, and he sure does like to talk, but I can't even name the CEO of most car companies, let alone get their shower thoughts live streamed into my existence 24/7. Are there a dozen publications queued up for a soundbite or juicy quote from Carlos Ghosn? Even during the heart of the diesel emissions scandal there was probably more Elon Musk content than anything from the VW CEO.
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Jul 18, 2018 11:52
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Qwijib0 posted:Looks like the norwegian price is ~36K USD for the base model, ~39K for the all-features model. It's listed with a 64kwh battery, but the US version is rated for "250 miles" at 117MPGe, which would require a 72kwh battery so I'm not sure those prices will directly translate. If they do, then it looks good. As far as I can tell the 325,000 krone price is for the base model, which is just under $40K USD. Finger Prince posted:You know, it's kind of weird how everyone seems to hang on every one of Musk's words. Like, I get there's a whole "what's crazy Elon going to say next?" thing, and he sure does like to talk, but I can't even name the CEO of most car companies, let alone get their shower thoughts live streamed into my existence 24/7. Are there a dozen publications queued up for a soundbite or juicy quote from Carlos Ghosn? Even during the heart of the diesel emissions scandal there was probably more Elon Musk content than anything from the VW CEO. well normally you don't want to run your mouth when you're under criminal investigation in the majority of the western world. plus the Volkswagen management structure has a very very strong supervisory board and a comparatively weak CEO position, versus Tesla is a company Forged By The Genius Of One Man who is still incredibly powerful within the company. The last car company CEO like him was probably Henry Ford, for better or worse. except henry ford knew how assembly lines work.
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Jul 18, 2018 12:59
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DoLittle posted:Not really genuine competitors as they are all cheaper than Teslas, but at least Bolt, Zoe, Kona, Niro, 2019 Leaf. I think all of these do at least 200 miles on a charge. Liquid Communism posted:Every ICE powered car on the road is a genuine competitor vehicle, and Tesla still has yet to get changing infrastructure to a state that the benefits aren't overwhelming in much of the US. Finger Prince posted:You know, it's kind of weird how everyone seems to hang on every one of Musk's words. Like, I get there's a whole "what's crazy Elon going to say next?" thing, and he sure does like to talk, but I can't even name the CEO of most car companies, let alone get their shower thoughts live streamed into my existence 24/7. Are there a dozen publications queued up for a soundbite or juicy quote from Carlos Ghosn? Even during the heart of the diesel emissions scandal there was probably more Elon Musk content than anything from the VW CEO.
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Jul 18, 2018 13:02
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:As far as I can tell the 325,000 krone price is for the base model, which is just under $40K USD. Fully optioned, which isn't that much, it's 345 900 NOK or 42 262 USD.
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Jul 18, 2018 13:15
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El Grillo posted:I think it's more that Musk makes himself a public figure, presumably because (a) ego and (b) his mission is to change the auto and energy industries to help avert climate change. I can't really see that being true, what with SpaceX going forward. Sure, from a space exploration perspective SpaceX is really cool and good and right now the environmental impact is negligible, but if/when they start with the launch schedule that was talked about earlier (a launch every two weeks), then "averting climate change" is not something the man is interested in. And then there is the space debris aspect of launching a car into space just for the PR. Which leaves us with (a).
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Jul 18, 2018 13:56
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Ulf posted:New topic: I've been idly plotting out EV trips around here for a 100-mile-range vehicle (Zero SR). It looks like if I want to go from home (Denver) to Mt Rushmore there's a ~200 mile gap between J1772 stations, so I'd have to carry a 7lb. portable EVSE (NEMA 14-50 to J1772) and wait a few hours in some hopefully-friendly RV parks. Things are still pretty adventurous out here for a vehicle like that, and it's crazy how much just a little more charging presence will change things. Are you assuming taking the trip with an SR with a charge tank or the power tank? The charge tank is an absolute necessity as it gives you a 6kW charger vs. the standard built-in charger’s paltry 1.3kW, unless you’re willing to hack in a Diginow supercharger of sorts. It can be done, you just need to make sure that you have a willing host of sorts at the RV Park, else you may find yourself camping overnight at a hotel at a 120v outlet. The FXS still has a poo poo-ton of warranty left on it so I’m not touching anything as of yet, but I’m also exploring the idea of swapping out the pitiful 700w charger for a 4.6kw unit of sorts. That would make the bike a true “screw about in the mountains and find a charger for lunch” machine instead of the “make it there and back and lol woe unto thee if you get stuck charging somewhere” machine it is now. I wish Zero would slap in a larger charger since the DC thing is dead but I sincerely doubt they want to spend the money on that now.
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Jul 18, 2018 14:02
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Nidhg00670000 posted:And then there is the space debris aspect of launching a car into space just for the PR. Given the sheer expanse of space, thats like being concerned about a flea in the middle of 100 football fields - Let alone as a PR stunt it was actually pretty drat good. The rocket needed a dummy payload for the test flight and to prove it could put a object into a interplanetary trajectory after a six hour delay, so why not? It would have been a block of concrete otherwise. Not a single thing on that flight otherwise was just a PR stunt. Personally it's the kind of stunt that gets people interested in spaceflight and science.... I'd call that worthwhile
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Jul 18, 2018 14:34
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Yeah, the concern with space debris is stuff clogging up Earth orbit, with Kessler Syndrome being the worst case scenario (giant cloud of debris that makes space basically inaccessible for hundreds of years). Tossing a car out into a solar orbit isn't of any concern.
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Jul 18, 2018 15:51
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If the Space Roadster does crash into something and kill someone, it's going to be an interesting asterisk on the wiki page for "People killed by driverless Tesla vehicles"
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Jul 18, 2018 16:59
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canyoneer posted:If the Space Roadster does crash into something and kill someone, it's going to be an interesting asterisk on the wiki page for "People killed by driverless Tesla vehicles" Gonna hit all those concrete barriers in the Milky Way.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:07
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Liquid Communism posted:Tesla still has yet to get changing infrastructure to a state that the benefits aren't overwhelming in much of the US. I keep trying to parse this but it just does not make any sense to me. So many double negatives. "Tesla does have charging infrastructure in a state that the benefits are underwhelming in much of the US" Still not clear what you are trying to say. Are you saying Tesla's charging infrastructure is sub par? It is literally the best (by far) of any charging network. You can drive a Tesla from any metro area in the USA across country and fast charge along the way with no issues. It's built into the nav systems. It's the only EV currently capable of this. What would you consider "a good state of charging infrastructure" ? I do get that Tesla and all EVs are competing against fossil vehicles. The S is winning it's class. The X is a top contender in it's class, and the 3 is already overtaking it's class in California. The market thinks ICE vehicle are inferior, the question is can a competent company make enough of them to meet demand (at a price consumers will pay)? https://www.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/tesla-outsold-bmw-mercedes-in-california-in-the-first-quarter-14599367 This is because in many ways to many people a EV is a better product then ICE and Tesla is making the best ones right now. I personal think ICE is dead and EVs are a clear winner, they are better in every single way except price and that is changing right now. However, I'm realistic and know it's going to take 10 - 20 years for the transition to happen. I don't know what could stop it at this point, maybe a World War or another global financial catastrophy I guess.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:38
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spandexcajun posted:they are better in every single way except price Or you know, range.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:53
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On the other hand, strictly environmentally speaking the LCA of a diesel running HVO100 can actually outperform an electric car in multiple cases.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:06
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What means of electricity production are you assuming?
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Jul 18, 2018 18:07
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Just saying range is oversimplifying. Maybe range over a given time period. Both of my ICE vehicles only have a 250-260 mile range. It's just that I can add another 250 miles in 5 minutes when it would take an hour to add that much range with a fast charger. The general guideline while driving is 15 minute breaks every 2 hours. So, even with today's tech, breaks to allow for charging are only about double the length of what's recommended. 12 hours is about the maximum driving that anyone should be doing in a given day. So you are only adding 90 minutes to your full journey to charge over what you should be doing break-wise anyways. That's not too say we have the infrastructure right now to allow all people to take long car drives in EVs, but vehicle range can be managed with a few edge cases that would be troublesome.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:19
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Nidhg00670000 posted:On the other hand, strictly environmentally speaking the LCA of a diesel running HVO100 can actually outperform an electric car in multiple cases. With decent diesel crop production that isn't consuming the rain forest or distorting food supplies, this is a reasonable way for aviation to go green in our lifetimes. If the fuel component of the airline ticket doubles, it doesn't matter that much. Just tax fossil jet fuel to be more expensive. Flying is too cheap anyway.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:20
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spandexcajun posted:I keep trying to parse this but it just does not make any sense to me. So many double negatives. tesla has the best charging infrastructure by far tesla's charging infrastructure is not remotely close to meeting the needs of a 2% market share in North America and therefore it is underwhelming from a growth-supportive perspective. it will be very capital intensive to build this out. these statements do not conflict i'm also not sure that you can say that the market thinks EVs are superior. The Model S is a best seller in its (tiny, dying) class, but uh the market has spoken pretty strongly about the Model X and it ain't too favorable. As a percentage of total new vehicle retail EVs are still below 1%. Some of this is supply constraints - not sure how you can think that it's all supply constraints. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 18:23
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Happily, the cases where multiple drivers trade off for extended drives aren’t *that* common.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:24
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I look forward to a glorious future where the people who can afford it keep driving, eating meat and go to the Maldives for Christmas while the rest of us keeps sucking off the job creators. gently caress excise taxes loving over poor people forever. Just ban poo poo.Subjunctive posted:What means of electricity production are you assuming? I'm not really assuming anything. I just read stuff. Here's one example from "How good are electric cars? - An environmental assessment of the electric car in Sweden from a life cycle perspective." 
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Jul 18, 2018 18:31
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bull3964 posted:That's not too say we have the infrastructure right now to allow all people to take long car drives in EVs, but vehicle range can be managed with a few edge cases that would be troublesome. The three challenges to me are long-range capacity (not enough infrastructure to allow people to take long cross country drives in EVs, and even if people don't actually do it they want to be able to do it), long-range route restrictiveness (right now there are limited ways to go A to B long range on the supercharger network), and local charging capacity - it is hard for urban apartment dwellers and the like, who are good EV candidates, to get charging installed. All these things are getting better, but they have to get a lot better a lot faster to support people's EV sales growth projections.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:32
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Nidhg00670000 posted:I can't really see that being true, what with SpaceX going forward. Sure, from a space exploration perspective SpaceX is really cool and good and right now the environmental impact is negligible, but if/when they start with the launch schedule that was talked about earlier (a launch every two weeks), then "averting climate change" is not something the man is interested in. And then there is the space debris aspect of launching a car into space just for the PR. Very ignorant post, FYI. Space flight will be a drop in the bucket as far as fuel consumption, and the data and profits from satellites more than makes up for negative impacts.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:32
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You should still be taking the same number of breaks. Being a passenger isn't as mentally taxing as driving, but it is fatigue inducing all the same.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:32
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LRADIKAL posted:Very ignorant post, FYI. Space flight will be a drop in the bucket as far as fuel consumption, and the data and profits from satellites more than makes up for negative impacts. "The data and profits". I thought I was critical of Elons supposed mission to avert climate change, but sure. I don't doubt he's going to make a shitload of money on it.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:36
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bull3964 posted:You should still be taking the same number of breaks. Being a passenger isn't as mentally taxing as driving, but it is fatigue inducing all the same. I’ve always found napping while my partner drives to be quite refreshing, especially in the back seat, but I’ll keep that in mind. What is it about sitting in a car that’s fatiguing vs sitting at a coffee counter? At the limit, being awake at all induces fatigue, but I don’t think that’s what you mean.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:45
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Subjunctive posted:I’ve always found napping while my partner drives to be quite refreshing, especially in the back seat, but I’ll keep that in mind. Mostly it's the bouncing around. Your body is constantly reacting to maintain your balance and it wears on you. The constantly changing scenery also fatigues your mind with evaluating everything you see.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:48
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The three challenges to me are long-range capacity (not enough infrastructure to allow people to take long cross country drives in EVs, and even if people don't actually do it they want to be able to do it), long-range route restrictiveness (right now there are limited ways to go A to B long range on the supercharger network), and local charging capacity - it is hard for urban apartment dwellers and the like, who are good EV candidates, to get charging installed. All these things are getting better, but they have to get a lot better a lot faster to support people's EV sales growth projections. This is not a chicken and egg problem. Charging stations by private ventures other than Tesla and VW will lag EV adoption. Thankfully it's not like gas stations pre WW1, electricity is already well distributed.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:52
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Ripoff posted:Are you assuming taking the trip with an SR with a charge tank or the power tank? The charge tank is an absolute necessity as it gives you a 6kW charger vs. the standard built-in charger’s paltry 1.3kW, unless you’re willing to hack in a Diginow supercharger of sorts. It can be done, you just need to make sure that you have a willing host of sorts at the RV Park, else you may find yourself camping overnight at a hotel at a 120v outlet. DigiNow puts their chargers in belly pans now, which is nice as it lowers the CoG compared to the charge tank, and will sell you enough chargers to get 2C or 3C charging rates, though it'll void your battery warranty and they insist on talking with you first to make sure you know what you're getting into.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:53
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Ola posted:This is not a chicken and egg problem. Charging stations by private ventures other than Tesla and VW will lag EV adoption. Thankfully it's not like gas stations pre WW1, electricity is already well distributed. lack of infrastructure is a drag on adoption though
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Jul 18, 2018 18:55
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