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They went through the trouble of interning you, grooming you, and vetting you. That does count for something. The DC market right now is red hot for talent, even junior talent, so they're going to assuredly go with the devil they know vs. rolling the dice again. You should always ask for more. If your market research says 60k (that's what we pay junior analysts with no experience + BA/BS level or other goodies in my field) and they offer 60k, you ask for 65. They'll either give it to you straight up, or meet somewhere in the middle. As long as you're not outlandish in your counteroffer there's zero harm in doing it; asking for 5-7% over market is expected, but going well beyond that can maybe possibly damage the deal if you're insulting about it. Remember to think in terms of percents rather than flat numbers. It's highly, highly unlikely that you'll get an unsustainable offer. This area is way too competitive for a company to offer below market rates and get away with it for long. You need a constant supply of fresh blood if your company is going to sustain itself. Empty seats generate no money, and it takes time for you to get spun up to maximum revenue potential; they don't want churn.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:24
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They also paid for me go through the clearance process again, which I take as a good sign especially since I’m the only intern that went through it. Even if it was just a matter of convenience and not as expensive as a regular clearance interview (it expires next year and isn’t active — not sure how all that works or if it’s even any different of a process) it still doesn’t make sense to me that they would spend the money if they planned on discarding me at the end of August.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:30
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Vasudus posted:They went through the trouble of interning you, grooming you, and vetting you. That does count for something. The DC market right now is red hot for talent, even junior talent, so they're going to assuredly go with the devil they know vs. rolling the dice again. All of this is almost straight out of my negotiations class. You should always ask for more even if you don't think you deserve it. As long as it is mostly reasonable, the worst thing that can happen is usually that they say no. You also don't have to ask for money but can focus on rapid advancement or something else. If you need to, you can use your remaining benefits or your plan B as a best alternative for comparison, to know when to walk away. You can also try to create a plan, work out what the other party wants, what your strengths and weaknesses and theirs are, and how to minimize yours and maximize theirs. Getting to Yes is a good book to read. I wasn't able to get free access to a lot of the papers we read but pay negotiations was one of the first ones we did.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:33
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Depending on area and field also take into account that having a clearance is worth about a 20% bump compared to what an un-cleared equivalent position is. My first internship told me that if I stuck with them I'd start at Engineer II (~65k) and would make Engineering Senior (~100k) within 5 years. Clearances are expensive and finding people who are smart and clean enough to hold them is difficult.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:42
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Always be asking for more. "yo, you know another 5k would make that a whole lot more competitive with what's going on at other places" and if that don't fly (and even if it does) remember the less tangible stuff. Extra week's holiday a year, tax advantageous stuff, free parking, loving free dry cleaning if they do that, always be asking for a bit more.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:53
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I just feel like I’m a bum off the streets and if they don’t hire me they won’t have an issue hiring someone else. Maybe I just need to change my mentality and stop thinking I’m still enlisted and that maybe I serve some value to the company rather than just being a cog in the machine. Overall the culture seems to be the opposite of everything the military was but I’m still approaching it as if I’m a brand new e-1 because that’s just how I’m conditioned. If they heap a bunch of lovely work on me I figure I’m the one who is supposed to do it because I’m entry level. My last entry level job was the army, and the poo poo work that has been put on me in the last couple months is still paradise compared to even my best days as a junior enlisted.
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Jul 24, 2018 03:04
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boop the snoot posted:I just feel like I’m a bum off the streets and if they don’t hire me they won’t have an issue hiring someone else. There is generally a pay band on these things. If, for example, the band is 10k, between 50-60 and one person starts at the top and the other at the bottom, the pay difference will follow throughout a career and can be extreme. Create a chart that lists your strengths and weaknesses and theirs in this. Your strengths are familiarity, skills, a good match with the team etc. Weaknesses are inexperience or entry level things skills that are easily transferable I'm assuming. They need good people with lower staff turnover at an acceptable pay. Emphasize your fit and desire to be with the company for a long period, along with the high cost of DC living and that you are worth a long term investment. That would be a good start to how to look at this negotiation. Our professor gave us an assignment in which we had to collect 10 "Nos", asking a spectrum of people for things until we got told No 10 times. It's harder than you would think. If you don't think you can ask for pay, identify things that would make your life/job better or put you in a much better position. Fast advancement, training, time off, more responsibility, etc. Try to align what you ask for with what the company wants/needs so it's harder for them to say no as well. If you accept that you are always going to be that entry level button pushover, it can easily turn into a self fulfilling prophecy. Look for more bro.
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Jul 24, 2018 05:50
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boop the snoot posted:I just feel like I’m a bum off the streets and if they don’t hire me they won’t have an issue hiring someone else. Yes, you absolutely positively need to get out of this mindset. It's going to be a motherfucker. You're going to be entering the world of white collar, it's going to always feel weird. You'll build your confidence over time of course, but you should try to accept the fact that either you're supposed to be there, or you have an innate talent for conning white collar idiots into thinking you're one of them. Either way, this is how the wind is blowing so whatever narrative you need to do to internalize and push forward you should go with.
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Jul 24, 2018 10:19
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Also, just because you're entry level as far as technical job skills go, you're not on the same competitive field as some 22 year old dipshit that just graduated. Your background gives you ~the diversity of ideas~ that companies love to talk about. That's a non-quantifiable benefit that anybody with half a brain would realize is worthwhile.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:15
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Vasudus posted:Also, just because you're entry level as far as technical job skills go, you're not on the same competitive field as some 22 year old dipshit that just graduated. Your background gives you ~the diversity of ideas~ that companies love to talk about. That's a non-quantifiable benefit that anybody with half a brain would realize is worthwhile. Vas, do you guys need any lawyers?
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Jul 24, 2018 14:18
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Also don't veterans represent tax benefits for the companies that hire them? I think it Florida here if you're a disabled vet who has been long term unemployed (ie. School) you are worth about 16k in tax credits in the first year to the company that hires you full time. I'm sure other states have similar. Don't quote me on those exact figures but I'm pretty sure I'm in the ball park.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:13
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2 rejection emails today about scholarships. I sat here for 5 minutes to try to make that look like I wasnt complaining. I think it sucks but I learned from the experience.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:15
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not caring here posted:Also don't veterans represent tax benefits for the companies that hire them? Correct, but that doesn't mean anyone will hire you. FL veteran preference doesn't apply to any "exempt" jobs which conveniently includes lawyers. People don't want to hire the entry level person 10 years older than the rest of the applicants, though, regardless of veteran status.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:23
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True. I wasn't clear but I was actually thinking specifically of cole's case of not feeling like you're worth extra, when in fact there's a dollar value attached to your veteran status. Squeezing out extra in your negotiation is not gonna tighten them up as hard when they know it's not gonna really hit them for another year, where he might've been in line to be bumped up to that amount anyway. Anyway, my message is always be hustlin'
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Jul 24, 2018 18:01
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My message is don't go to law school. Although he doesn't post in GiP, I was successfully able to convince a goonvet to avoid it. I'm competing with people a decade younger than me for a bunch of sub $50k/yr jobs, and I can't even get those.
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Jul 24, 2018 18:03
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Mr. Nice! posted:My message is don't go to law school. Although he doesn't post in GiP, I was successfully able to convince a goonvet to avoid it. I'm competing with people a decade younger than me for a bunch of sub $50k/yr jobs, and I can't even get those. My buddy is about to move but he graduated pretty high up from Stanford and is having to hustle for lawyer work. Maybe it'll be easier for him in Boston.
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Jul 24, 2018 18:05
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Mr. Nice! posted:My message is don't go to law school. Although he doesn't post in GiP, I was successfully able to convince a goonvet to avoid it. I'm competing with people a decade younger than me for a bunch of sub $50k/yr jobs, and I can't even get those. I'm really worried about this for myself. Gonna graduate with my BA in a year or a little more, but I don't really have any meaningful experience and I am getting older and dumber and more broken every day contrasted against my much younger colleagues. I am certain that I am super-duper hosed, absolutely nobody is going to hire me lmao spending my GI Bill on a geology degree so I can make $13 an hour at whole foods
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Jul 24, 2018 18:33
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DownByTheWooter posted:I'm really worried about this for myself. Gonna graduate with my BA in a year or a little more, but I don't really have any meaningful experience and I am getting older and dumber and more broken every day contrasted against my much younger colleagues. I am certain that I am super-duper hosed, absolutely nobody is going to hire me Geology is an actual hard science and isn't a field that is flooded with thousands of people garbage schools all willing to work at poverty rates just to get a job.
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Jul 24, 2018 18:36
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I sure hope you're right. My university has a super-strong reputation in geoscience as well, which I hope will balance out my GPA dumpster fire
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Jul 24, 2018 19:27
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DownByTheWooter posted:I sure hope you're right. My university has a super-strong reputation in geoscience as well, which I hope will balance out my GPA dumpster fire Have you had the opportunity to look at internships anywhere? I really think that the people hiring geologists will be the type where veteran preference actually matters IE mostly feds and not exempted like lawyers are in some states.
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Jul 24, 2018 19:51
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Generally speaking the more specialized your degree is, the more concrete your prospective market should be. Like yes, there are technically people with chemistry degrees working outside of the field; but you can get a degree in chemistry and at least be fit to clean test tubes or work for big oil. The more...nebulous your hard skills are, the less guaranteed your job may be in exchange for increased flexibility. Geology like the other natural sciences likely has an expected path if you wished to work in field. I suggest you research what that is. This also applies to the level of education in your respective field. For instance, I have a masters in Sociology. I have a masters because a bachelors is absolutely without a doubt useless. There are no such thing as readily employable sociologists that have only a bachelors, not working in what would be considered 'in field' for that degree. However, because I have that, and because of the hard skills my degree brings (analysis, critical thinking, quantitative reasoning, statistics) I'm able to apply them to various labor efforts; none of them 'in field'. BUT, since I have *only* a masters, and not a PhD, I can't be considered for many (but not all) jobs that would classify me as a subject matter expert. So I'm in the middle where I'm given a lot of tools to work with and a lot of options, but my hard skills and credentials alone do not open any *specific* doors. The main theme that I give my mentees (that's a word, gently caress you) is that you pick where you want to go, and then immediately start planning for the next step - 2, 3, 5, however many years down the road. It's fine if you don't have a clear picture, as very few of us will work a job where there's something as clear cut as the military's progression system, but knowing what experience or skills you need to put you ahead of your cohort is what sets you apart from them. When I first started my program manager took me to lunch and asked me what my plan was. I told her that I want her job. At the time I had zero clue what that would entail, how long it would take, or if I needed additional skills or blind-loving-luck to make it happen. But I wanted her job. Without missing a beat, she told me something like 'and that's why we picked you'. If you're in a proper functioning environment, it's pretty easy to spot the people that have actual ambition and are hungry for more. And nobody tends to be more hungry than vets that are 6-10 years late to the party.
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Jul 24, 2018 20:07
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So quick question. The school will refund me scholarship money right? Or does the VA go "oh cool thanks for helping!" and offer less money for tuition? They also just told me that they zero'd out the money I'd be making for the Photo Editor position because of whatever reasons but they'll put it back if I want to get a meal plan or whatever. edit: Kinda freaking out. There's a 5k DVA deficit in the tuition for this semester compared to next and last years and that's what I had coming. Soulex fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 22:39
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Soulex posted:So quick question. Depends on whether it's a scholarship or Grant and whether it's applied to the cost of tuition or not. To answer your question: they might.
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Jul 24, 2018 23:02
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Depends on whether it's a scholarship or Grant and whether it's applied to the cost of tuition or not. To answer your question: they might. Looks like they did. Gotta go fight the school now
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Jul 24, 2018 23:23
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I have 40% GI coverage and took a loan to make the rest. If I qualify for a pell grant 2nd semester, will the VA lower contribution?
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Jul 24, 2018 23:38
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No. Grants are free money.
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Jul 24, 2018 23:42
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:I have 40% GI coverage and took a loan to make the rest. If I qualify for a pell grant 2nd semester, will the VA lower contribution? No, mine is because it's a scholarship. I got through to someone and explained to him that DVA = 100% tuition and he agreed, and said he'd look into it and call me back. I expecting bad news. I plan on raising hell if I do. I literally have a letter from the dean encouraging me to pursue further scholarships. For what? So I can give them that money too?
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Jul 24, 2018 23:43
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Mr. Nice! posted:Have you had the opportunity to look at internships anywhere? I really think that the people hiring geologists will be the type where veteran preference actually matters IE mostly feds and not exempted like lawyers are in some states. You're right, there are a good number of government positions for geoscientists so my DD-214 might count for something. I'm sure the Oil & Gas world is pretty veteran-friendly as well. Wrt internships, I did two summers for the American Museum of Natural History, living and working at their research station in southeastern AZ, but it's not the sort of thing that you can get a permanent position from, and while I loved it so much there I went back for another go-round, it didn't do much for building up my skillset. Interns there wash dishes and mow, etc. I think this summer would have been the ideal time to get a summer internship (i.e. before going into my senior year), but I really needed this summer to get some powerful time sink classes done, namely my upper-division Writing and my Calc 2. I don't make the cut for even mildly competitive internships with my GPA at ~2.5, and I have no idea what prof I could ask for a recommendation... I think I am really loving this whole college thing up Vasudus posted:Generally speaking the more specialized your degree is, the more concrete your prospective market should be. Like yes, there are technically people with chemistry degrees working outside of the field; but you can get a degree in chemistry and at least be fit to clean test tubes or work for big oil. The more...nebulous your hard skills are, the less guaranteed your job may be in exchange for increased flexibility. Geology like the other natural sciences likely has an expected path if you wished to work in field. I suggest you research what that is. Thanks for posting. This is another big concern of mine. I see positions out there for geologists with Bachelor's degrees, but I hear all the time that the "working" degree for a geologist is typically a Master's. Earth Sciences is an incredibly broad, highly inter- and multidisciplinary umbrella, so I guess specialization is pretty important, but gently caress dude I am just not up for signing up for who knows how many more years of school. I feel and have felt for a couple of years now that starting this whole college education thing was just a real big misstep for me, but I'm at the point now where if I don't wrap up the degree, then I really wasted several years of my life sitting in lecture halls. Hell, maybe I'll graduate and jump right into an OK job somewhere, but to be perfectly honest I don't think college will ever "pay off" for me.
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Jul 25, 2018 00:46
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You could probably look at the national geospatial intelligence agency. Apparently pretty vet friendly.
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Jul 25, 2018 00:51
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quote:Thank you for your email. The Office of Financial Aid reached out to me about you receiving a tuition only scholarship. I don't know if he talked to the finance office before or after I called them, but I'm getting ready to start raising hell because I did the one on the website that was supposed to help with additional educational expenses. I'm mad enough that I'm seriously debating going somewhere else to finish my degree. I got a follow up email after I asked why vets should apply to scholarships on SVO website if they don't plan on reimbursing the veterans for actually winning a scholarship. The certifying official cites school policy. The scholarship also mandates you have to be using educational benefits.
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Jul 25, 2018 00:52
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Giving vets using post-911 a non-refundable scholarship just for loving show is ridiculous.
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Jul 25, 2018 13:47
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Have you told them to suck your dick from the back yet?
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Jul 25, 2018 16:25
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not caring here posted:You could probably look at the national geospatial intelligence agency. Apparently pretty vet friendly. Incidentally, a good friend of mine from high school has been working for them for a couple of years, now - on Ft. Meade, I think? He's a GIS guy, and since GIS is a fundamental part of the geoscience skillset these days I took a summer class on Arc. He said it's probably worth my applying, especially if I learn some Python, so thanks for the tip.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:25
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Voc Rehab worked out well. The counselor said I'm pretty much a lock for the program. His words: "I don't normally tell people this but you are a good candidate for the program." The next step is writing an email to him advocating why Columbia is the right school for me and my career plans, as opposed to a cheaper school like CUNY. I have a pretty decent pitch but is there anyone who can skype me this evening or catch me on the GiP discord to go over what I should say? End goal is to work in government or the private sector as an analyst.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:04
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Viva Miriya posted:Voc Rehab worked out well. The counselor said I'm pretty much a lock for the program. His words: "I don't normally tell people this but you are a good candidate for the program." The next step is writing an email to him advocating why Columbia is the right school for me and my career plans, as opposed to a cheaper school like CUNY. I have a pretty decent pitch but is there anyone who can skype me this evening or catch me on the GiP discord to go over what I should say? End goal is to work in government or the private sector as an analyst. I can help later but Id prefer PM or email. I go to a school that is "above the norm" and Ill explain what I did after my counsellor was pretty much lile "no loving way."
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Jul 25, 2018 20:16
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Soulex posted:I can help later but Id prefer PM or email. I go to a school that is "above the norm" and Ill explain what I did after my counsellor was pretty much lile "no loving way." PM'd.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:19
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So I'm going to school outside of the US. I got an email from the VA saying that they'd received an enrollment certification submission from the school, and that it would go through processing. Anyone have any idea how long that takes? I'm needing documentation from the VA for my visa application saying that I'll have income while I'm in the country.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:41
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A Bad Poster posted:So I'm going to school outside of the US. I got an email from the VA saying that they'd received an enrollment certification submission from the school, and that it would go through processing. Anyone have any idea how long that takes? I'm needing documentation from the VA for my visa application saying that I'll have income while I'm in the country. ~two weeks on average. Your mileage may vary.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:48
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Soulex posted:I can help later but Id prefer PM or email. I go to a school that is "above the norm" and Ill explain what I did after my counsellor was pretty much lile "no loving way." PM'd you the pitch based on your feedback. Let me know how that looks to you. I'll also send it to anyone else that thinks they can help. I wanna polish this up so its solid.
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Jul 25, 2018 21:29
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Thanks for your help Soulex. I'll keep you guys posted on how everything goes.
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Jul 25, 2018 22:29
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