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VitalSigns posted:Gee I wonder why America elected an idiot reality TV star running on "I'm not a politician" If there's one thing Trump is, it is consistent.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:38
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HootTheOwl posted:Why even bother shifting public opinion if we're just going to ignore the results of shifting the opinion. The problem isn't that we're ignoring the results of shifting opinions, it's that they are. Mitch Landrieu, one of Third Way's only viable presidential candidates, wants to sell out gay people to the fundies despite how unpopular that would be (not just with Democrats, with the public in general), simply because fundies are much more reliable voters. If Third Way had their druthers both parties would be anti-LGBT, just to different degrees, and as voters we absolutely can't allow that to happen.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:39
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VitalSigns posted:Gee I wonder why America elected an idiot reality TV star running on "I'm not a politician" Because the political party that presents itself as "the adult in the room" has taught its supporters that being a blatant opportunist who who puts donor concerns over the needs of their constituents is the only kind of politician that anyone should take seriously. Ever.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:40
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HootTheOwl posted:It's like baby's first introduction to politics. There are inconsistencies, and then there are inconsistencies. When a politician suddenly makes a 180 on an important position, and doesn't explain what caused her views to evolve so quickly, it makes people wonder if she actually holds any convictions on that issue after all, or if she's just pandering.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:41
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HootTheOwl posted:If there's one thing Trump is, it is consistent. I don't believe I said that. I said "yes we're all cynical opportunistic liars, that's politics" is not a great strategy for winning votes. Strange but true!
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Jul 25, 2018 16:43
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:The problem isn't that we're ignoring the results of shifting opinions, it's that they are. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/on-safari-in-trumps-america/543288/ For reminder’s sake, Third Way are the people who went out of their way to go visit “real America” and then baldly ignored everything they heard that didn’t conform to their narrative from either right or left wing voters.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:43
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I feel like the logical outcome of "the entire political class are amoral assholes with no real beliefs" isn't the outcome that whatever this person is imagining.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:47
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I've got to say "Trump is 100% right that politicians are all greedy liars, we will say anything and then betray you to our donors" is an interesting political strategy for trying to beat him
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Jul 25, 2018 16:49
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VitalSigns posted:I've got to say "Trump is 100% right that politicians are all greedy liars, we will say anything and then betray you to our donors" is an interesting political strategy for trying to beat him What if we try scolding the body politic for not behaving the way are models predicted with a person who has three phds and uses as many eight syllable words as possible? I bet that'll do the trick. That always does the trick. People love being scolded and respond well to it.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:51
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Prester Jane posted:What if we try scolding the body politic for not behaving the way are models predicted with a person who has three phds and uses as many eight syllable words as possible? I bet that'll do the trick. That always does the trick. People love being scolded and respond well to it. I will double my monthly quota for saying popular things are "problematic."
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Jul 25, 2018 16:53
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Prester Jane posted:What if we try scolding the body politic for not behaving the way are models predicted with a person who has three phds and uses as many eight syllable words as possible? I bet that'll do the trick. That always does the trick. People love being scolded and respond well to it. Now lemme just click the 'ol "?" real quick....
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Jul 25, 2018 16:53
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HootTheOwl posted:Now lemme just click the 'ol "?" real quick.... ...I'm...not sure what you think you'll find there? Prester Jane has a pretty solid history of posting good poo poo...
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Jul 25, 2018 16:55
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Prester Jane posted:Because the political party that presents itself as "the adult in the room" has taught its supporters that being a blatant opportunist who who puts donor concerns over the needs of their constituents is the only kind of politician that anyone should take seriously. Ever. Seriously. How does a political faction that does nothing but either lose elections or endless capitulate to their opponents when they manage to sometimes win still have so much confidence that their way is the only possible path? I get it from people like Hillary that are constantly making money off this scam but regular people that can't think outside this mystify me.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:03
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Radish posted:I get it from people like Hillary that are constantly making money off this scam but regular people that can't think outside this mystify me. They get to play the smug superior above-it-all man by indulging in the cynicism that they think makes them sound smart, and they believe they're materially insulated from the real-world effects of the misdeeds of politicians they defend.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:11
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Hillary diehards are basically the Democrat equivalent of 'truth is in the middle, both sides are dumb' South Park Republicans.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:20
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At this point they kinda parallel Trumpers in that they've bought into an identity cult so hard (and attributed anything good they wanted onto that identity) that they can't be shaken out for fear of admitting they were wrong about everything.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:33
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HootTheOwl posted:Why even bother shifting public opinion if we're just going to ignore the results of shifting the opinion. You're not making any sense. Shifting public opinion is good because it both has practical effects in real life (people with better views on race are less likely to be lovely racists) and because it increases the chance of electing good politicians. This is not somehow mutually exclusive with wanting politicians to win regardless of public opinion. There is no contradiction here.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:34
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Radish posted:At this point they kinda parallel Trumpers in that they've bought into an identity cult so hard (and attributed anything good they wanted onto that identity) that they can't be shaken out for fear of admitting they were wrong about everything. It's actually exactly the same as the cynical rationalizations I saw from Trump supporters on social media in 2016. "The things he's saying I don't like? He's just lying to get elected. The things he's saying I like? Who cares why he's saying it or what he said yesterday, I like what I hear now so that's what he'll really do in office!"
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Jul 25, 2018 17:40
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HootTheOwl posted:Why even bother shifting public opinion if we're just going to ignore the results of shifting the opinion. why do people like you keep conflating the opinions of polticians, such as gillibrand, and public opinion? do you honestly believe that gillibrand has no convictions of her own, or that she doesn't act on them? and if so, do you honestly believe someone like that is a good leader? i think it's pretty obvious that politicians have convictions of their own, that they act on despite public opinion. a good example of this, is when obama and other democrats supported the wildly unpopular bank bailouts, and defended banks from their actions despite said banks being unbelievably unpopular.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:44
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Look Manchin isn't a huge racist that votes very consistently along that line coupled with loving over low income people. He is actually not that bad but simply HAS to pretend that he is since otherwise we would have to come to terms that the Democratic party has no problem with open bigots in leadership positions.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:48
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Skex posted:The ones who matter (as in currently hold office) still won their elections so obviously they were able to convince the majority of their constituency that they were the best choice. Wow, and I thought Fukishima was horrible Really, I'm inspired that Third Way is flailing so horribly, like under Obama they could act as a pretend voice of "the right" of the democrats so that Obama always just "had" to keep their views in mind. Now it's j them flying into a rage because their is a real left for the democrats and it's drowning them out..
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Jul 25, 2018 21:03
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the hopelessness at loss after loss, the disappointment of seeing the opposition continue to achieve victory when you know that if there was any justice in the world they'd drop dead where they stood.
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Zero_Grade posted:Is a state AG really an upgrade from federal House Rep? It seems like a lateral move more than anything, in terms of national profile/recognition. It is because statewide races are the biggest races one can run besides president and also gives him some law enforcement/executive credibility that rounds out his activist credentials. Ellison would be a stellar nominee and I think if can organize his primary campaign he could win the nomination.
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Jul 26, 2018 00:38
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VitalSigns posted:It's absolutely crazy that the political class in this country is so arrogant that they think they can just say "yeah we're all opportunistic liars who will stab you in the back in a heartbeat, grow up" and it won't cause them any problems. At no point did anyone learn from Kerry. Kerry's campaign predicted Obama's presidency.
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Jul 26, 2018 02:24
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Trabisnikof posted:Ellison would be a stellar nominee and I think if can organize his primary campaign he could win the nomination. I 100% think Ellison runs for president within the decade, but his tenure as AG should be watched closely to see if he continues to do well. Edit: I’m assuming he wins of course.
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Jul 26, 2018 02:47
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EdithUpwards posted:At no point did anyone learn from Kerry. Kerry's campaign predicted Obama's presidency. God what a disaster.  "There weren't any weapons! You diverted troops to Iraq for no reason! Americans can't trust your judgment." "You said there were weapons, you voted to divert troops to Iraq, can America trust your judgment.""Yes because I will kick rear end in the wrong theater for imaginary reasons, I will kill so many American kids for nothing you just won't believe"
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 02:52
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Lightning Knight posted:I 100% think Ellison runs for president within the decade, but his tenure as AG should be watched closely to see if he continues to do well. I'm cautiously optimistic given the "is not and has never been a prosecutor" thing, but yeah AG is a position I will always be a bit incredulous toward.
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Jul 26, 2018 03:09
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A high bar has been set by that one state prosecutor or whoever it was that fired a shitload of prosecutors and repealed numerous mandatory minimums and such.
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Jul 26, 2018 03:58
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A high bar has been set by that one state prosecutor or whoever it was that fired a shitload of prosecutors and repealed numerous mandatory minimums and such. Krasner in Philly?
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Jul 26, 2018 04:00
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Matt Zerella posted:Krasner in Philly? That sounds right. It's not internal reform until you're firing a shitload of people.
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Jul 26, 2018 04:05
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I like Krasner but the recent dustup with a trans activist being put in a men's jail left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. He's still doing some good work but yikes. http://www.leftvoice.org/DA-Larry-Krasner-Charges-Trans-Activist-for-Attempting-to-Burn-Blue-Lives-Matter-Flag
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Jul 26, 2018 04:08
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The centrists will be smashed!
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Jul 26, 2018 05:31
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Goons in states like California and Texas, did removing the energy monopoly in those states cause prices to go up dramatically? Normally I'd love to vote to gently caress over NVenergy, but there are people on both sides of the issue that I don't trust.
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Jul 26, 2018 12:57
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it's not shifting opinions. look how poorly clinton performed in 1992. even in 96 he didn't capture half the vote.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:42
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CubanMissile posted:Goons in states like California and Texas, did removing the energy monopoly in those states cause prices to go up dramatically? Normally I'd love to vote to gently caress over NVenergy, but there are people on both sides of the issue that I don't trust. If you mean deregulation, it messed things up just a wee bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_scandal http://blogs.edf.org/energyexchange...t-a-good-thing/
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Jul 26, 2018 22:15
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VitalSigns posted:God what a disaster. In many ways, a perfect summation of the Democratic Party mindset for the past few decades. They fear their donors, illusory swing voters, neocons, political pundits, basically everyone more than they fear their own base.
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Jul 27, 2018 08:30
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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1022449961689145345?s=21
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Jul 27, 2018 19:48
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Skex posted:Oh for gently caress sake stop fighting a strawman. I've never said that Centrists can be redeemed, I'm not a loving centrist, never have been and never loving will be. My entire point is learn when to fight to change the party and when to fight to prevent further gains by the regressives. What does it matter if the slightly less awful person wins, if they feel no pressure to actual do good things, and proceed to spend their entire elected term focused on winning reelection and rewarding their donors? Putting pressure on the nominee is not a fruitless endeavor, and "party unity" is being used as an excuse for not holding nominees to a higher standard and getting them to do the right thing. Again, what does any of this matter if the people we elect to get good things done don't commit to getting those good things done, and then, shock of all shocks, don't do the good things? We're done playing defense, okay? It's kinda past time for us to own up to being the ones with conventional, sane morality and basic human compassion on our sides. at least in theory, progressives have that! We want people to have healthcare, education, an equitable justice system, housing, air and water that aren't full of toxins, and a more fair economic playing field. I mean, I want more than that, and I think capitalism is pickling into some kind of absolute nightmare dystopian system, but I know what's realistic, and it's bigger than you think (but smaller than I wish). but anyway, the things we want are right and good. Of course there's a debate about how to accomplish those things, but that they should be accomplished SHOULD NOT BE IN DISPUTE IN THE FIRST PLACE. We can't lose sight that we're not on the side of the Democrats primarily (and if you are, gently caress you, political parties should never have your first allegiance), we're on the side of Doing the Right Thing, and nudging Democrats towards Doing the Right Thing is the entire ballgame. The alliance of leftists with Democrats is an uneasy alliance of convenience, and only because sometimes they listen, instead of trying to silence us, whereas Republicans somehow can't tell the difference between us and them. also, I believe that generally policy is electorally neutral unless it's too out there. "Abolish ICE" isn't going to significantly move the needle one way or the other for the vast majority of Democratic candidates. It's just the right position.
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Jul 27, 2018 20:26
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This whole argument is predicated on the false dichotomy of "you can either be leftist OR beat Republicans." Otherwise, posts like Skex's don't make any sense, because they fundamentally rely on the assumption that moving left will either make it harder to defeat Republicans, or at least won't contribute to beating them (as opposed to a bunch of liberals dunking on Trump, which I guess will for, uh, reasons).
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Jul 28, 2018 00:42
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Jul 28, 2018 07:31
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Ytlaya posted:This whole argument is predicated on the false dichotomy of "you can either be leftist OR beat Republicans." Otherwise, posts like Skex's don't make any sense, because they fundamentally rely on the assumption that moving left will either make it harder to defeat Republicans, or at least won't contribute to beating them (as opposed to a bunch of liberals dunking on Trump, which I guess will for, uh, reasons). Yeah. I don't get how this attitude persists with people not on the DNC payroll when you can see the fruits of their strategy with your own eyes. Even if it was a net zero in gaining votes, shouldn't we be pushing for people that want better things for everyone instead of Democrats that just want to shovel more money into the MIC like Mark Warner while people starve or straight up racist Republicans like Manchin? Not moving left only is bad if it would result in terrible losses and there's no data that says that is true (McGovern was 40 years ago) and the Third Way seems to be burning elections just fine on their own.
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Jul 28, 2018 12:46
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