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Rules for outsiders in this comic seem to be that they just cease to exist when killed. But Yurkon's existence as an independent entity is over now, anyway.Kerning Chameleon posted:I feel Durkon not dying for real in this arc would be unsatisfying. This has been the perfect coda for his character, and it'll be more interesting for the Order to learn to go on and finish all this without him in the last book. I could be satisfied either way, honestly. I'd love to see more Durkon now that he's really fleshed out, but if he dies there would also be that sense of closure.
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Jul 28, 2018 00:12
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I feel Durkon not dying for real in this arc would be unsatisfying. This has been the perfect coda for his character, and it'll be more interesting for the Order to learn to go on and finish all this without him in the last book. How would that happen, though? The order wants Durkon back, it's been cleaarly established that it's within their power to do so if they kill the vampire, and there is no way Durkon would peace out and go to Valhalla. And the title of the comic is The Order of the Stick. It is, ultimately, the story of these six characters. None of them are going go get written out before the last book. Belkar and Durkon are still going to be around for the next book, even if it's just their adventures in Valhalla, or Belkar biting it for good and being drafted into the service of Cedric of the IFCC or something. Plus, I really feel like Durkon deserves a heartfelt apology from everyone but Belkar for letting all this poo poo happen to him. Gwyneth Palpate posted:With that in mind, this was actually a pretty risky gambit on Durkon's part. If Nokrud hadn't succumbed to it, Durkon would have probably been shoved in the eidetic dog house pretty soon after this was over. The thing is, he could have done that as soon as he stopped pretending to be Durkon and asserted his own personality at the Godsmoot, or at least after Durkon tricked him into breaking the keystone. He didn't have to let Durkon show him the final memory, but he chose to, anyway. Durkon had figured out the spirit's weakness and had nothing to lose, anyway.
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Jul 28, 2018 00:20
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RIch is definitely OK  I'm hoping he's got a couple more panels saved up to keep this going.
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Jul 28, 2018 00:44
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One detail that probably everyone noticed, but I liked, was how the vampire in the real world is stuck. Way back at the start of the book, the vampire explains that everything in Durkon's mind happens "at the speed of thought," so the fact that he's unable to react shows how much control the vampire has lost, even before we got today's reveal.
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Jul 28, 2018 00:50
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ColdPie posted:One detail that probably everyone noticed, but I liked, was how the vampire in the real world is stuck. Way back at the start of the book, the vampire explains that everything in Durkon's mind happens "at the speed of thought," so the fact that he's unable to react shows how much control the vampire has lost, even before we got today's reveal. Yeah, looks like his thoughts have slowed down quite a bit. VodeAndreas posted:RIch is definitely OK He usually tries to keep a good pace with bits like this, so we'll probably have at least a couple more (relatively) quick updates.
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Jul 28, 2018 01:07
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W.T. Fits posted:I'm kinda feeling the opposite - I think this arc is a perfect encapsulation of why Durkon would want to be rez'ed. Because he knows that even if they stop Hel's scheme here, Xykon still remains a threat to the last Gate, and after dealing with him, the Snarl itself could become another potential threat to the world. I mean, his mom just mentioned how it would've been senseless to pull his dad out of Valhalla so that's definitely setting up Durkon willingly leaving it to finish his duty with Xykon et al
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Jul 28, 2018 02:39
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Calaveron posted:I mean, his mom just mentioned how it would've been senseless to pull his dad out of Valhalla so that's definitely setting up Durkon willingly leaving it to finish his duty with Xykon et al Nah, that just falls in line with putting the good of other people above your own personal happiness sometimes. Of course Durkon would willingly leave Valhalla to try to save the world, it's basically the same choice his mom made but BIGGER.
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Jul 28, 2018 02:43
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Yeah, I don't think Durkon would feel comfortable going off to Valhalla when he knows his friends are down there fighting to save the world, he has a huge sense of duty. If he could be rezzed, he would definitely jump at the chance.
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Jul 28, 2018 04:01
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We should also recall that not only is Hilgya fairly unlikely to want to rez Durkon, even if she were persuaded, the fact that Durkon would be getting the call back to life from a Chaotic Evil source might make him unlikely to accept it. Particularly with the way that time gets all screwy for dead people in the afterlife, as Roy discovered.
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Jul 28, 2018 05:20
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Yeah, I expect that Durkon will need to be rezzed by someone other than Hilgya.
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Jul 28, 2018 05:23
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Hahaha Hel's gonna be so pissed abut this. And Loki's gonna gloat so hard right to her face.
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Jul 28, 2018 05:39
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Remember that the vampire threat isn't 100% over; the Exarch and a nameless vampire were sent ahead to "begin preparations" on screwing with the Council vote.
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Jul 28, 2018 05:41
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CapnAndy posted:Remember that the vampire threat isn't 100% over; the Exarch and a nameless vampire were sent ahead to "begin preparations" on screwing with the Council vote. Yeah but we've definitely slammed straight into arc denouement territory. The only way that can supply tension is if it starts to relate back to sub boss xykon
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Jul 28, 2018 06:08
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That whole business might actually be a good reason for Durkon to stick around a bit longer, depending on if the exarch is bound to him. Not sure how that works here, since it might not be following the 3.5e rules exactly; though, while I don't think it was spelled out explicitly, given the changes in Durkula's behavior and apparent mental faculties after Malack was destroyed, compared to how the exarch spoke and behaved when we saw him, I suppose the possibility of him still being enslaved is a long shot. He's far less simple-minded than "baby" Durkula was, even if he's not particularly bright, and he questioned/objected to the order he was given in the linked strip. Would still be a pretty powerful force in said conflict, though; letting himself get offed immediately might have a certain nobility and poetry to it, but it's arguably not the pragmatic option or the one with the best chances of saving the world. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Jul 28, 2018 |
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Jul 28, 2018 07:56
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durkon is not pragmatic.
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Jul 28, 2018 08:24
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Also remember how in the last strip Sigdi told us how she never let go of Durkon's dad? And how in the first strip we see her in she also tells someone to not let go of her? God, this is a great read. Gwyneth Palpate posted:Also: mmkay fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jul 28, 2018 |
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Jul 28, 2018 08:34
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Can someone explain what is going on with Belkar?
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Jul 28, 2018 10:36
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violent sex idiot posted:durkon is not pragmatic. No, but if it occurred to him to think of it as finally being able to retire to Valhalla or whatever, he might view checking out immediately as the selfish thing to do. Then again, it could go exactly as people have been speculating; the idea of him "not wanting to rest while the universe is in danger" or whatever occurred to me, though, so I felt like throwing it out there, even if it seems like the less-likely way for things to go even to me. mmkay posted:Also remember how in the last strip Sigdi told us how she never let go of Durkon's dad? Yep, pointed out the Sigdi thing earlier myself. Also, it's very important for dwarfs to learn how to combat the arboreal menace. Edit: Alchenar posted:Can someone explain what is going on with Belkar? Mr. Scruffy inadvertently activated his Protection from Evil clasp, both waking him up (likely due to the pain it causes him) and protecting him from further domination attempts from the vampires (as well as breaking the one he was under if that persists even when unconscious, I don't know the rules there). He then proceeded to rage out and kill the one vampire, and is now letting out all the confusion and frustration over Durkon's sacrifice he's been showing over the course of the arc while ineffectually trying to get through the Anti-Life Shell Durkula put up earlier, which is still up and still solid to living things, such as angry halflings. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Jul 28, 2018 |
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Jul 28, 2018 10:37
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Roland Jones posted:That whole business might actually be a good reason for Durkon to stick around a bit longer, depending on if the exarch is bound to him. Not sure how that works here, since it might not be following the 3.5e rules exactly; though, while I don't think it was spelled out explicitly, given the changes in Durkula's behavior and apparent mental faculties after Malack was destroyed, compared to how the exarch spoke and behaved when we saw him, I suppose the possibility of him still being enslaved is a long shot. He's far less simple-minded than "baby" Durkula was, even if he's not particularly bright, and he questioned/objected to the order he was given in the linked strip. The Order and Hilgya has more than enough firepower to take on two vampires. Plus there are probably a lot of metaphysical ramifications to Durkon's actions. There's no guarantee that Yurkon's transformation is permanent, or that Hel couldn't somehow interfere. Being a good negative energy spirit also can't be good for you. Oh, and there's no way the Order will ever trust him. Durkula already pulled that gambit once and almost destroyed the entire world.
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Jul 28, 2018 10:42
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Alchenar posted:Can someone explain what is going on with Belkar? His emotional state he explains p clearly.
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Jul 28, 2018 10:43
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Y'all are gonna feel real silly when Hilgya destroys Durkon's corpse after they kill Durkula.
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Jul 28, 2018 10:57
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:The Order and Hilgya has more than enough firepower to take on two vampires. Plus there are probably a lot of metaphysical ramifications to Durkon's actions. There's no guarantee that Yurkon's transformation is permanent, or that Hel couldn't somehow interfere. Being a good negative energy spirit also can't be good for you. Oh, I pointed out there being no way they'd trust him earlier in the thread myself. I was imagining something more like him handing the baby back, dropping the shell and domination, and misting or teleporting out. He could even lead the party by having them chase him to the council chambers or whatever; with Minrah dead, unless Hilgya happens to know the way they'll be at a loss for where they need to actually go, assuming they even realize that they still need to get to the council immediately despite their victory here. Admittedly that level of subterfuge is not the kind of thing Durkon usually does, but he did just pull off a pretty amazing plan that required misleading, manipulating, and concealing information from an evil spirit that has access to all his memories, so getting the Order to chase him to where they need to be when they already think he's an evil villain is pretty simple. It also fits on a narrative level, in my opinion. Everything we just saw of Durkon and his past, his mother's actions and how that shaped him into who he is? The party doesn't know any of that, and they likely never will; to them, Durkon was just the boring, dependable, inflexible-but-well-meaning dwarf, and now he's a corpse puppeted by an evil spirit. Heck, outside of him, Sigdi, the people she had raised, and the priests who raised them, no one knows about all that; Sigdi's amazing sacrifice will likely go unsung beyond her name being inscribed on that wall, and as far as she's concerned that's fine. She didn't do it for praise or accolades, she did it because it was the right thing to do; even if no one at all knew about it and she gained nothing, not even the good relationships, from it, she still would have done it. Similarly, no one knowing about the battle that's been going on in Durkon's mind, or Durkula's conversion, or their combined last act being one more heroic act, instead seeing an evil vampire making one last attempt at his plans or trying to flee or whatever and putting it down, seems like it'd continue that nicely. Though admittedly, as I was writing this post I realized that even just letting himself get finished off here would fit that minus the very last bit. So, I suppose that part isn't really necessary; even him just passively accepting his fate while they think he's still evil fits. I do like the idea of Durkula actually actively doing something as a result of Durkon's influence on him, though. On a tangent, while rereading some things this strip reminded me that Durkon still hasn't been told about his exile being ended. After that specifically being brought up back at the Godsmoot and in this fight, it seems like that has to at least come up again at some point. It doesn't feel like a red herring to me, at least, so I'm curious how it might end up mattering. Kerning Chameleon posted:Y'all are gonna feel real silly when Hilgya destroys Durkon's corpse after they kill Durkula. I'm pretty sure this being Durkon's final death is the prevailing theory here, so, probably not. Edit: Almost entirely unrelated, but I'm amused that even when Belkar is saving the day he's managing to disobey Roy as part of it. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Jul 28, 2018 |
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Jul 28, 2018 11:39
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Roland Jones posted:Similarly, no one knowing about the battle that's been going on in Durkon's mind, or Durkula's conversion, or their combined last act being one more heroic act, instead seeing an evil vampire making one last attempt at his plans or trying to flee or whatever and putting it down, seems like it'd continue that nicely. Though admittedly, as I was writing this post I realized that even just letting himself get finished off here would fit that minus the very last bit. So, I suppose that part isn't really necessary; even him just passively accepting his fate while they think he's still evil fits. I do like the idea of Durkula actually actively doing something as a result of Durkon's influence on him, though. I mean, I believe that whatever Rich writes happening next will be entirely in character and fitting, and if the vampire helps the Order while pretending to be evil, it'll be earned. I just have a mental image of Durkula releasing everybody, letting down his guard, and getting staked with a smile on his face, same as when he first died, and I really want it to happen. I think staking him would also be a major part of Belkar's arc, and it would be a bit weird to put it off for another couple strips. Imagine if the vampire responds to all of Belkar's rage and frustration with a big ol' "thank you for resisting the vampire at every turn. You inspired me to do the same." Roland Jones posted:On a tangent, while rereading some things this strip reminded me that Durkon still hasn't been told about his exile being ended. After that specifically being brought up back at the Godsmoot and in this fight, it seems like that has to at least come up again at some point. It doesn't feel like a red herring to me, at least, so I'm curious how it might end up mattering. I still don't see that happening. There's still a whole book left, and I don't think the story of most of the Order of the Stick discovering the true nature of the Snarl, and also Durkon's adventures in Valhalla, would be as compelling as the story where the Order has overcome their trials and grown into a unified functional team for their last adventure. At this point, I think Durkon's exile ending was a deliberate red herring. It set up a situation where Roy could theoretically help Durkon resist the vampire, but then revealed that Durkon managed to do it entirely on his own.
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Jul 28, 2018 12:10
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Can Durkon cast Raise Dead on himself? If he can, that’s my guess for how this ends. And then Durkon getting to see his mom again (is she still alive?).
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Jul 28, 2018 12:46
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, I believe that whatever Rich writes happening next will be entirely in character and fitting, and if the vampire helps the Order while pretending to be evil, it'll be earned. I just have a mental image of Durkula releasing everybody, letting down his guard, and getting staked with a smile on his face, same as when he first died, and I really want it to happen. Something along those lines could work too; like you say, it can go either way and still be in-character depending on how Durkon views it. The main way that occurred to me that'd be unsatisfying would be Durkula somehow getting murked while still being oblivious to the outside world; the seemingly-genuine conversion ending up as a glorified distraction and the change of heart part not actually mattering at all would feel rather cynical and disappointing. Both enabling and passively accepting his own destruction and actively making a sacrifice would fit (and I had the idea of the latter actually loopholing Durkula into Valhalla if he doesn't just cease to exist, since he is (sort of) Durkon and a dwarf and all, and that'd be a pretty brave and honorable way to die), but Durkula getting attacked while still grappling with all these emotions and Durkon's efforts pretty much amounting to getting the vampire to look away while his allies killed him would be a big let down to me. Thankfully I don't think that is a likely outcome; the Anti-Life Shell is a pretty hard barrier to get past, and Belkar likely isn't in a state to think of a clever way around it or go heal/wake up one of the allies who could do that, so I figure that things aren't progressing on that front until Durkula drops the shield, whenever that actually happens. quote:I still don't see that happening. There's still a whole book left, and I don't think the story of most of the Order of the Stick discovering the true nature of the Snarl, and also Durkon's adventures in Valhalla, would be as compelling as the story where the Order has overcome their trials and grown into a unified functional team for their last adventure. Well, presumably going to Valhalla would be Durkon exiting the strip beyond maybe the occasional cutaway panel and possibly a "Where are they now?" epilogue, not him having his own minor plot running parallel to the main one. Coming to terms with his death, moving on, and adapting and persevering despite that would be a significant development for the Order as well, and plenty compelling, I think. Though this being a D&D world does make death cheaper than it is in most stories, so him coming back is definitely much more likely than it would be in other things, at least. Like a lot of the things discussed here, we'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully the comic's current pace continues so we aren't waiting long..
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Jul 28, 2018 12:50
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Roland Jones posted:Something along those lines could work too; like you say, it can go either way and still be in-character depending on how Durkon views it. The main way that occurred to me that'd be unsatisfying would be Durkula somehow getting murked while still being oblivious to the outside world; the seemingly-genuine conversion ending up as a glorified distraction and the change of heart part not actually mattering at all would feel rather cynical and disappointing. Both enabling and passively accepting his own destruction and actively making a sacrifice would fit (and I had the idea of the latter actually loopholing Durkula into Valhalla if he doesn't just cease to exist, since he is (sort of) Durkon and a dwarf and all, and that'd be a pretty brave and honorable way to die), but Durkula getting attacked while still grappling with all these emotions and Durkon's efforts pretty much amounting to getting the vampire to look away while his allies killed him would be a big let down to me. Hell, we might even get to see them both go to Valhalla and hanging out with grampa and Tenrin, and Yurkon the Durkon gets to stay behind when the OG Durkon gets called back. It'd allow for an epilogue where we get to see both Durkon in Valhalla and Durkon and Kudzu continuing the cycle of being raised by an extremely badass and heroic single parent. And yeah, I think the Anti-Life Shell was primarily put into place as a way for Durkon to let down his guard and get in a few words without getting immediately cut down. Roland Jones posted:Well, presumably going to Valhalla would be Durkon exiting the strip beyond maybe the occasional cutaway panel and possibly a "Where are they now?" epilogue, not him having his own minor plot running parallel to the main one. Coming to terms with his death, moving on, and adapting and persevering despite that would be a significant development for the Order as well, and plenty compelling, I think. Though this being a D&D world does make death cheaper than it is in most stories, so him coming back is definitely much more likely than it would be in other things, at least. Like a lot of the things discussed here, we'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully the comic's current pace continues so we aren't waiting long.. In one of the author commentaries in the books, I wanna say following the Belkar prophecy in Don't Split the Party, Rich says something along the lines of "In the end, the title of the story is the Order of the Stick, and it's always going to be the story of these six characters. Even if one of them dies for good, we'll still follow whatever happens to them afterwards." You could certainly tell a meaningful and compelling story of how the Order learns to deal with the loss of a member they hadn't even realized was the backbone of the party and grows as a result, but I don't think that's the story Burlew wants to tell. I mean, Durkon's exile could even be the vehicle for his permanent death. He's not going to allow his resurrection because he still can't set foot in Dwarven lands, and he never got the chance to learn that it was over or that he was only exiled in the first place because of the now-defeated vampires. It could easily be made to make narrative sense given the story so far.
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Jul 28, 2018 13:07
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Rich actually decided to clear up the "Why doesn't this happen with all vampires" question.quote:First, the main difference between Durkon's situation and other vampires is the speed at which everything happened. A standard vampire gets three days in the grave to absorb the lion's share of memories, and then takes months to slowly assimilate the rest. This vampire didn't get any of that, and so they were overwhelmed. A vampire who absorbs the memories in the "proper" way will not be overwhelmed. It could easily be argued that this would be a "balancing factor" in Malack's swift-rise spell, if I was going to stat it up for actual D&D play (which I'm not). And that's an aspect that Hel and her newly-created minion wouldn't necessarily know about, because it was Nergal's spell.
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Jul 28, 2018 19:24
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Called it!
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Jul 28, 2018 19:30
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The Exarch's name is Gontor, apparently.
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Jul 28, 2018 19:57
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Now I want to see a vampire try to turn O-Chul.
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Jul 28, 2018 20:53
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quote:But if I poured 93 gallons of water down your throat today, you would die.
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Jul 28, 2018 22:12
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PMush Perfect posted:Challenge accepted. You don't even need that much water, a girl died after drinking 2 gallons for a stupid radio show contest.
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Jul 28, 2018 22:22
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My Lovely Horse posted:Now I want to see a vampire try to turn O-Chul. He'd beat them to their final death with his bare hands first
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Jul 28, 2018 22:27
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My Lovely Horse posted:Now I want to see a vampire try to turn O-Chul. Well the act of kindness that turned O-Chul into the champion of good he is today wasn't anywhere near as mind-blowing as what Durkon had in stock, and I don't think O-Chul could pull of this gambit. His appeals tend to be a bit more... direct. He'd probably just resist all the way.
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Jul 28, 2018 22:49
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My Lovely Horse posted:Now I want to see a vampire try to turn O-Chul. Good luck with that. I'm pretty sure O-Chul has a Con score in the mid-30's by this point. They would probably die (un-die? re-die?) of exhaustion before he did! MechanicalTomPetty fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jul 28, 2018 |
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Jul 28, 2018 23:15
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Draining O-Chul's blood would probably not be unlike trying to drink 93 gallons of water, yeah.
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Jul 28, 2018 23:22
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O-chul would just resist so long that even at the speed of thought the spawn wouldn't get any memories in time
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Jul 29, 2018 00:25
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You mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02I47U2p5x4&t=492s
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Jul 29, 2018 03:20
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Yeah, I've been thinking hard about Persona through this bit. I've come to two conclusions.
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Jul 29, 2018 03:43
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Could someone do a persona 101 to explain how this is similar?
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Jul 29, 2018 06:46
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