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Ytlaya posted:Like, you make up this goofy "electing zombie Karl Marx*" thing, but you're the one who is essentially advocating for millions of people to spontaneously decide they're suddenly willing to vote for politicians they don't like when they weren't willing to do so before. You're doing the same thing conservatives (and many liberals, unfortunately) do where they take issues involving entire populations/countries and boil them down to individual decisions. quote:This is the thing, you guys always redirect things to this voting argument, when it's probably one of the most irrelevant things to focus on. No change will come from constructing some foolproof argument that voting for lesser evil Democrats is technically possibly-in-the-short-term preferable to not doing so (except for possibly negative change, since there's nothing more demoralizing than being told to suck it up and accept that the best you can hope for is little/zero positive change). Nothing you're talking about here has any chance of significantly increasing voting for Democrats, and nothing the people you're arguing with are talking about will significantly decrease voting. The only difference is that the latter are advocating things that might increase voting if what they desire comes to pass.
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Jul 29, 2018 23:47
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Infinite Karma posted:Telling people that Schumer is an rear end in a top hat and that we're idiots for voting for him is exactly the same as Clinton saying that Trump is an rear end in a top hat ans we're idiots for voting for him. What better option is being presented? https://twitter.com/ocasio2018/status/1013784599019782145
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Jul 30, 2018 00:05
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And if she runs in the NY-D Senate primaries in 2022, we should support her. About 700,000 people have the option of voting for her this year, and 325,000,000 live in other districts. It'll be nice if the DSA actually takes off, it'll be a great thing, maybe more candidates will appear of AOC's caliber.
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Jul 30, 2018 00:18
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Infinite Karma posted:Telling people that Schumer is an rear end in a top hat and that we're idiots for voting for him is exactly the same as Clinton saying that Trump is an rear end in a top hat ans we're idiots for voting for him. What better option is being presented? Don't vote for assholes like schumer who are destroying the party. Shaking up the leadership of the senate dems would be a net positive, cause schumer is completely and absolutely not able to handle the job he is tasked with (resisting trump).
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Jul 30, 2018 00:22
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Infinite Karma posted:Changing the cultural zeitgeist is the solution to turning out the vote and having politicians adopt better policies.
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Jul 30, 2018 00:38
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this is part of the problem with the reductionist thinking that accompanies lesser-evilism. your logic follows some sort of "democrats may be bad, but republicans are terrible. more republicans will always be worse than more democrats, so vote for democrats in the general always!" but that doesn't necessarily follow in this case. schumer has been a disastrous senate minority leader. he has constantly been outflanked and outmaneuvered by the republicans, and he has given up with little to no fight on extremely vital issues like dreamers, and this SC justice nomination. and that he's putting up so little of a fight now speaks volumes about what he'll do if dems have a majority and there's less pressure to have dems presenting a unified front (say, for example, if he wants any of that better deal bullshit to pass the senate). with schumer, we're looking at a party that is both unable to resist trump at vital times, and a party that will not push at all if it regains a majority. he's literally poison to our party. so the calculus of "less democrats == worse" does not actually follow in this case. less dems means they cannot push back as hard against trump, but that's only in the case where the dems are actually trying to push back, which they are not under schumer's leadership. the loss of schumer might actually result in leadership that is competent, as opposed to keeping schumer on, which will assure that the dem leadership is wholly incompetent and unable to flex what muscle they have under any circumstances.
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Jul 30, 2018 00:49
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At the end of the day, none of the circlejerking about how unreliable and stupid voters are matters. Centrism is unelectable, it just is. 2016 was supposed to be its crowning achievement, where the Democrats proved once and for all that they could abandon their working class base who demanded profit-threatening things like education and fair wages and healthcare, and smash the rabid extremes of the left and right by forging a new grand coalition of limousine liberals, silicon valley professionals, racist suburbanites, and minorities who have nowhere else to go. And with that overwhelming mandate of victory, they would have the clout to peel centrist Republican legislators away from the Tea Party to form a bipartisan governing majority that will finally pass all of Ronald Reagan's platform just like Macron in France. Of course we know that instead of inaugurating a generation of electoral dominance, they went down in flames in possibly the most embarrassing disgraceful loss in the history of the republic because they can't motivate voters, and no amount of bitching about how the ungrateful voters didn't fall in line like they were supposed to is going to change how hated they are or make their platform of "you have to vote for us or we'll sic the Republicans on you" any more attractive to voters who have become apathetic from 3 decades of the same old poo poo. The Democratic Party will change, or it will continue to lose to fascist and bible-thumping nutjobs. Whine about the voters on the internet all you want, it won't change anything besides giving you a brief feeling of catharsis.
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Jul 30, 2018 00:56
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Condiv posted:this is part of the problem with the reductionist thinking that accompanies lesser-evilism. your logic follows some sort of "democrats may be bad, but republicans are terrible. more republicans will always be worse than more democrats, so vote for democrats in the general always!" To put a finer point on it, even if one does assume that "more Democrats is always better," the assumption that the Dems standing up for the working class inevitably means that there will be fewer Democrats in Congress does not really hold water. For decades, Democratic voters have had it pounded into their heads that they can either vote for their values, or vote for someone who is electable, because we couldn't have both. The fact that anyone can still live under that delusion, after the past eight years' worth of electoral catastrophes, is pretty appalling. Infinite Karma posted:Telling people that Schumer is an rear end in a top hat and that we're idiots for voting for him is exactly the same as Clinton saying that Trump is an rear end in a top hat ans we're idiots for voting for him. What better option is being presented? I don't think you're an idiot for voting for Schumer up to this point, but I kind of have to wonder why you'd continue to vote for him, or defend him. He's terrible, and yet he's under no threat of being supplanted by a Republican. So there's no excuse for him behaving like a Republican, and I can't think of much of an excuse for supposedly-progressive voters supporting him. Can you? I'm seriously asking. Why would you vote for Schumer after his horrible mismanagement of the Democratic caucus in the Senate? Why wouldn't you vote for a third party candidate for New York senator, if you're a progressive? Majorian fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 01:15
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I'm leaving the ballot blank for Gillibrand this November and it's going to feel real good.
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Jul 30, 2018 02:23
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Schumer is a disaster. He was supposed to just rubberstamp Hillary's tax cuts while doing little else and has been inadvertantly thrust into the job of resisting American fascism which he is absolutely unqualified for. We couldn't be unluckier that he was promoted entirely on intra party nepotism for a seemingly do nothing job. His place in history with either be as a joke or the man who helped usher in a despotic regime. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 03:07
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We need a Minority Leader who is capable of leading the minority to the point where courts can be convened to try and sentence Trump for his crimes against humanity. Then, the Majority Leader needs to stay the course instead of pulling a Truman.
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Jul 30, 2018 03:53
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Infinite Karma posted:And if she runs in the NY-D Senate primaries in 2022, we should support her. About 700,000 people have the option of voting for her this year, and 325,000,000 live in other districts.
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Jul 30, 2018 06:53
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Infinite Karma posted:Do you live in West Virginia or New York? Then you can't vote for or against Chuck Schumer or Joe Manchin anyway. They should be purged from the party, that's not a question, but if they aren't purged from the party by election day, they're still better than voting for the fascist. We failed to reform the party in time for 2018, so our next chance is 2020. Being able to see what's coming doesn't actually give us the power to change it, it's a good motivation at best. If people actually behaved like you're demanding, i.e. "vote left in the primary but always vote Dem in the general" the Schumers and Manchins and Feinsteins have absolutely zero incentive to shape up in any way, but rather they have a huge incentive to just rig the primaries. Of course they're already doing that, but your demand means that they could just make it impossible for leftist challengers to win and suffer no consequences for it, so why the hell wouldn't they? Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 07:14
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And if they lose, they can just McGovern the good candidates.
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Jul 30, 2018 13:03
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Wasn't it also ruled that since the Democrats are a private organization they can legally do what they want with their primaries?
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Jul 30, 2018 13:35
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EdithUpwards posted:And if they lose, they can just McGovern the good candidates. they're already doing this in a number of races. for example: https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1022912575095418883 quote:Maryland gubernatorial nominee Ben Jealous needs all the help he can get to unseat incumbent Gov. Larry Hogan (R), but he’s facing resistance from some fellow Democrats uneasy with his left-wing platform. Condiv fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 13:47
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Radish posted:Wasn't it also ruled that since the Democrats are a private organization they can legally do what they want with their primaries? Actually that was part of the Democrats defense in a trial over a possibly rigged primary and the judge agreed with them and so ruled in their favor.
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Jul 30, 2018 14:21
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Condiv posted:they're already doing this in a number of races. for example: I'm sure we'll hear the centrist protestations that Hogan "ISN'T EVEN A DEMOCRAT!!!" aaaaany day now.
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Jul 30, 2018 20:22
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https://twitter.com/CoreyRobin/status/1023734949860597760
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Jul 30, 2018 22:08
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Is that real because lol https://twitter.com/CoreyRobin/status/1023735292270764032?s=19
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Jul 30, 2018 22:36
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Nothus posted:Is that real because lol I said this about Doug Jones, I'll say it about Obama. He was better than the alternative but holy lol he sucks rear end.
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Jul 30, 2018 23:07
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Kamala is probably gonna walk away with this poo poo, unless people start really pinning all cop sins on her.
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Jul 31, 2018 00:15
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Nonsense posted:Kamala is probably gonna walk away with this poo poo, unless people start really pinning all cop sins on her.
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Jul 31, 2018 02:25
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Skex posted:What I am advocating is that it doesn't help the cause to give the fascists a free pass by undermining their opposition. Yes, I too agree that the centrists should stop waging a pointless war against the left, and should instead support the leftists who strongly oppose fascism. Okay, I've said my joke. Now, let's put joking aside. The real issue is that "oppose fascism" and "pursue good policies" cannot be taken separately. People turn to fascism because poo poo sucks and the existing political establishment appears to be completely incapable of doing anything about it or even really acknowledging the problem. If we elect a lovely centrist whose only selling point is "won't personally vote for fascism", then it may delay fascism's rise by a bit, but it'll just encourage fascism's growth further. Just look at what happened in France. Macron benefited heavily from the "anyone but a fascist" vote, and now he seems determined to make everyone regret it. Next time, the "anyone but a fascist" vote will be weaker, and the fascists will do better.
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Jul 31, 2018 02:46
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another problem with what skex said is that it doesn't help us fighting alongside centrists when they consider us a bigger enemy than they do fascists. and that's very much the case. their leadership makes it clear every day that they prefer fascism to leftism. that's why schumer compromises with fascists but not the left. that's why the party freezes out leftists while embracing right wingers and racists like manchin.
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Jul 31, 2018 02:51
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There will also always be the Republican specter as an excuse to not criticize Democrats. Even if there's a Democratic president and/or Congress, they can/will just say "we need to focus on preventing Republicans from getting back into power." There's no end to it. And perhaps more importantly, as I mentioned before there's no real substance to their "we need to focus our attacks on the Republicans" stuff. No number of liberals complaining about Republicans is going to change anything; liberals/Democrats can only really change their own party. So the only real way to win against Republicans is through changing the Democratic Party into something capable of winning against them.
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Jul 31, 2018 03:50
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From the Trump thread:Skex posted:You know what irritates me the most about this crap? 
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Jul 31, 2018 03:57
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I will just state for the record, skex (and his ilk) and I do not "disagree on tactics" we exist in different moral universes and are sworn enemies whether they acknowledge it or not
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Jul 31, 2018 04:02
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You should be guffawing at the failing libs, conquest awaits!
Nonsense fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 04:03
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I think my favorite part is where skex tells me that my gender identity and past leave me unable to view the matter as dispassionately as they are-preventing me from seeing the truth.  I've never encountered this particular variety of privilege before, can't imagine that there is a term for it or anything.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:08
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Condiv posted:another problem with what skex said is that it doesn't help us fighting alongside centrists when they consider us a bigger enemy than they do fascists. and that's very much the case. their leadership makes it clear every day that they prefer fascism to leftism. that's why schumer compromises with fascists but not the left. that's why the party freezes out leftists while embracing right wingers and racists like manchin. Once again you utterly miss the point. You have to be able to be both strategic and tactical. Consider Bernie Sanders, he spent most of his career as pretty much the only successful socialist in American politics. Decades of advocating for the very policies that have all the righties and moderates in such a tizzy today. Yet it wasn't until 2016 when he decided to run as a Democrat that his policies (which haven't changed in 20+ years) gained mainstream attention and anything resembling mass support. As Gandhi said, first they laugh at you, then they fear and attack you, then you win. For decades they laughed, now they are afraid and are attacking, well you know what is next. Where you see a coordinated attempt to shut the left down, I see as incoherent panic. I'm not worried about what the centrists do to undermine the left for the same reason I was confident that prop 8 represented the last desperate gasps of homophobia. Because I remembered when the debate was over whether it should be illegal to beat or kill gay people rather than whether or not they could get married. In 2008 Single Payer health care wasn't a well understood or supported option. 10 years down the line it is about to become a litmus test for Democrats. Republicans like Meaghan McCain has a meltdown on national television and become a laughingstock to the public in general. The path is set, but we have to hold things together long enough for everything to play out. And in the short term given certain realities about the system of government in the United States that means preventing the Republicans from destroying the country so that there is a country left to implement those leftist policies. That means voting for Democrats, even the lovely ones.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:16
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Oh good, so you're now all the way around to assuming victory is inevitable, therefore you don't have to try, let alone do anything that might offend the sensibilities of rich white people.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:27
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Skex posted:Once again you utterly miss the point. You have to be able to be both strategic and tactical. Lol. You really think some variation of the old status quo can come back if we just steer the ship straight enough for long enough. Whatever emerges from this, whether for good or ill, will not even vaguely resemble the old status quo. It is gone forever. No variation of it is coming back within our lifetimes. You are seemingly incapable of conceptualizing the fact that the present situation requires thinking and behavior well outside of what would have been considered normal/acceptable within the context of the old status quo. All enabling people like Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi is going to do is at best- delay the inevitable. At worst it weekens are collective chances of getting through this. In a resistance movement against the kind of tyrants that we now face there is simply no room for incompetent leadership. None. Zilch. Nada. The most powerful leader in the Democratic party also openly supports a brazenly racist apartheid state. This man is not going to stop tyranny. Far from it in fact. When push comes to shove he is guaranteed to enable tyranny for percieved personal gain- because that's all he knows how to do.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:31
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Skex posted:Once again you utterly miss the point. You have to be able to be both strategic and tactical.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:31
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Matt Zerella posted:It 100% absolutely does not mean that. If you don't vote for dems because they're not pure enough for you, you're no different than a Republican voter.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:36
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Verranicus posted:If you don't vote for dems because they're not pure enough for you, you're no different than a Republican voter. I don't vote for republicans in D clothing. Sorry if your willing to.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:37
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Matt Zerella posted:I don't vote for republicans in D clothing. Sorry if your willing to. Ok, enjoy more Republican administrations then I guess.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:44
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Guys, we need to vote for our team. We need to vote for the people with a D next to their name who will uphold leftist values like universal healthcare and federal rent control/affordable housing. The team the team the team. So remember, go out and vote for teammates like *scans list on clipboard with neceonomicon teeth up top* Claire McCaskill, Joe Manchin, and Doug Jones. Also Hillary "single payer healthcare will never ever happen" Clinton.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:47
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Verranicus posted:Ok, enjoy more Republican administrations then I guess. I live in NY. I can vote however the heck I want. In fact, I got to vote for my future representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. In September I'm voting for Cynthia Nixon and Zephyr Teachout. In November I'm voting for AOC and not Cuomo or Gillibrand. Sometimes living in a state full of hellish centrist liberal baddems has upside, I can vote my conscience.
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Jul 31, 2018 04:50
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Matt Zerella posted:I don't vote for republicans in D clothing. Sorry if your willing to. Do you understand how congress actually works? That the majority party gains some serious advantages when it comes to determining the legislative agenda? That even lovely Red State Democrats shift the balance of power towards the left since it means that the the better Democrats can actually advance a more left agenda. Having Manchin as horrible as he may be to win in his state, could literally be the difference between whether say Bernie Sanders is a member of a committee or chairing it and thus influencing its agenda. Politics is a team sport, it's about finding enough people whose views are close enough to yours that you can find an acceptable compromise in order to promote the kinds of policies that you agree with. Someone like Manchin is playing his position, not everyone can score the goals, someone has to guard your goalpost. Yeah you might score more goals if the whole team was playing offense all of the time, but you could still end up with a net loss because your opponent had unfettered access to your goal. I get that the analogy is imperfect given that sometimes those Red State Dems prevent better scores, you have to remember what the actual consequences would have been had those players not been in place. As much as I hate Max Baucus for sabotaging the ACA if he hadn't been there and his seat had been held by an actual Republican we wouldn't have even gotten that. Yes it would be better if the Democrats had the level of electoral support to retain sufficient majorities in congress to promote an agenda but the country is not quite there yet (though it is getting closer). I'll say this, if you really want to support the idea that these policies are winners. Find a way to help Beto O'Rourke, because if he can win a Senate seat in Texas running on a Medicare for All and Abolish ICE platform then that's a platform that can win anywhere. Hell if that platform can win here and I seriously think that it might then I fully expect to see Universal Healthcare, comprehensive immigration reform, UBI, an end to war on drugs, criminal justice/prison reform and a Mars colony before I die. But if the Democrats don't take back at least the house and hold the line in the Senate that's not going to happen.
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Jul 31, 2018 05:30
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