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zoux posted:Not even a regular army unit, no he wants the committed Nazis He wants the really bad ones to die horribly. Actually, you know what, yeah, gimme an SS brigade...
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Aug 3, 2018 18:00
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Jobbo_Fett posted:How does a 2nd front affect the quality of the units? Real good way to advocate for your forces by saying that they could only win a stand-up fight if the Soviets were too busy fighting a second front.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:01
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Tekopo posted:I saw another TIK video and it's quite funny to see the wehraboos come out in force for relatively uncontroversial opinions like "the soviets were actually quite strategically, operationally and tactically adept" I like that it's "I'll take, you take" rather than "if they met". Pretty sure the Russians had the better strategy at least, given they loving won.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:02
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Tekopo posted:I saw another TIK video and it's quite funny to see the wehraboos come out in force for relatively uncontroversial opinions like "the soviets were actually quite strategically, operationally and tactically adept" An SS brigade (what kind?) and a Soviet brigade (again, what kind?) don't even have equal numbers. Also a Soviet brigade was a tactical unit not designed to operate independently, but that's details.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:06
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There's a lot of media that has conditioned people to see SS units as some uber-powerful special forces with all the latest and best weapons, while in reality there was a large gap of skill, equipment and ability between the best and the worst of the Waffen-SS. Although the "Myth of the Eastern Front" is not completely authoritative, it does show how especially the Waffen-SS was mythologised, and how even today in wargames (even simple stuff like making the SS counters black), video games and pop-history crap like "Deadliest Warrior" seems to show that the myth of the SS is still strong nowadays.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:09
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Jeez haven't you watched the award winning documentary series Deadliest Warrior? You just see how good the best weapons they have are then smash them together while making explosion noises to find out whose better.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:10
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Do modern armies still estimate casualties beforehand? In wwi they would estimate a casualty %, how did they come up with that number? Obviously terrain, what they can target with artillery, but what was an acceptable rate? Certain attacks had 50% predicted and went ahead. Did the soldiers know this?
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Aug 3, 2018 18:11
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ilmucche posted:Do modern armies still estimate casualties beforehand? In wwi they would estimate a casualty %, how did they come up with that number? Obviously terrain, what they can target with artillery, but what was an acceptable rate? Certain attacks had 50% predicted and went ahead. Did the soldiers know this? They definitely were prior to the first Gulf War - coalition forces (especially the Marines) were expecting to take a lot of casualties and talk about it in memoirs.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:25
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Do I get to pick the SS unit he gets stuck with? Because some SS units were decent, but a lot were terrible.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:59
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Epicurius posted:Do I get to pick the SS unit he gets stuck with? Because some SS units were decent, but a lot were terrible.
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Aug 3, 2018 19:02
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The number one qualification for an SS brigade was politics right? So did these decent SS units just get lucky or was there an effort to put the guys who were ardent, dispicable Nazis AND decent army guys into certain units. The parallel structure of "regular" and "political" armies seems real dumb to me. Was that unprecedented? I mean beyond your typical interservice rivalries. I know there was a huge rivalry between IJA and IJN but that wasn't based on politics right?
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Aug 3, 2018 19:14
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Tekopo posted:How about the 30th Waffen-SS Division? They were not one of the better ones, no.
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Aug 3, 2018 19:15
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zoux posted:The number one qualification for an SS brigade was politics right? So did these decent SS units just get lucky or was there an effort to put the guys who were ardent, dispicable Nazis AND decent army guys into certain units. The number one qualification for SS divisions was whatever Himmler thought he needed to put together. Most of the SS-infantry formations were foreign legions or end-war ersatz formations, and many of the foreign legion units performed poorly. The SS-Panzer divisions were largely prestige divisions and were similar to normal Panzer divisions in quality- they were by far the most dangerous elements of the German army both to civilians and soldiers. That was the general gist of the Wehrmacht post-1942, though- weakening infantry units of varied quality, panzer-divisions providing the strength. Brigades as seperate units were not often used in any of the German Army- the exception was the hastily formed Panzer-Brigades in the West to try to stop the breakout through France. Their results consisted of such wonderful 'successes' as Arracourt.
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Aug 3, 2018 19:31
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Some of that SS mythmaking might have been partially the result of the British and Americans making modest attempts at copying the "ideological elite" soldiers. Wingate... WTF, Wingate was assigned to the Palestine, became an ardent zionist himself, and created special night squads for attacking Arab nationalists? He then got assigned to Ethiopia, where he made the multi-national Gideon Force He then went to burma to form the Chindits, the long range jungle gurrelia force. He decided the best way to toughen his men up was to have them camp in the jungle during the rainy season, and naturally everybody got sick e: "After his meeting with Allied leaders, Wingate contracted typhoid by drinking water from a flower vase in a Cairo hotel while on his way back to India." Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 19:55
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zoux posted:The parallel structure of "regular" and "political" armies seems real dumb to me. Was that unprecedented? I mean beyond your typical interservice rivalries. I know there was a huge rivalry between IJA and IJN but that wasn't based on politics right? The reason behind the Waffen SS was that Hitler and Himmler didn't trust the regular army. They wanted a parallel army that was loyal to Hitler and the party. So it doesn't make sense from a military standpoint, but it does if you think there's going to be a military coup and you need loyal soldiers around you. Was it unprecedented? Not really. Mussolini did the same thing with the Blackshirts, and a bunch of a lot of smaller German puppets in WWII made their fascist militias army units with their own command And even today, China's PLA is the military of the Chinese Communist Party, and not of the state. eta: Wingate was all sorts of awesome.
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Aug 3, 2018 20:23
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Nebakenezzer posted:
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Aug 3, 2018 20:25
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Wingate also had a tendency to walk around naked and would keep a raw onion on a string around his neck, which he'd snack on throughout the day.
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Aug 3, 2018 20:34
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To be fair, that was the style at the time, onions having recently migrated from the belt thanks to American influence. Now, to take the ferry cost a rupee, and rupees in those days had pictures of bumblebees on them. They didn't have white onions because of the war, the only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 20:49
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Trin Tragula posted:To be fair, that was the style at the time, onions having recently migrated from the belt thanks to American influence. Now, to take the ferry cost a rupee, and rupees in those days had pictures of bumblebees on them. They didn't have white onions because of the war, the only thing you could get was those big yellow ones... that was the style at the time, you see
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Aug 3, 2018 21:14
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Slim did not have good things to say about Wingate in his autobiography. Also in all, (well 80%) actual seriousness: look at the US Marine Corps.
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Aug 3, 2018 22:01
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Epicurius posted:The reason behind the Waffen SS was that Hitler and Himmler didn't trust the regular army. They wanted a parallel army that was loyal to Hitler and the party. So it doesn't make sense from a military standpoint, but it does if you think there's going to be a military coup and you need loyal soldiers around you.
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Aug 3, 2018 22:15
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GotLag posted:Including this guy whose chute was caught on the church tower when his stick was accidentally dropped on a village. He survived by playing dead until he was taken prisoner a few hours later. This guy's luck seems all over the place but ultimately i would not like to play cards with him I think.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:00
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13th KRRC War Diary, 3rd August 1918 posted:Large parties of the enemy were observed, presumably a working party to the trench at L 3 d 6,1 - L 3 d 95,10.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:40
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Nebakenezzer posted:Some of that SS mythmaking might have been partially the result of the British and Americans making modest attempts at copying the "ideological elite" soldiers. Wingate... Wingate was loving insane. Like 'giving commands naked with just a watch in the middle of the jungle' crazy. Trin Tragula posted:onions J'aime l'oignon frît à l'huile, J'aime l'oignon quand il est bon, J'aime l'oignon frît à l'huile, J'aime l'oignon, j'aime l'oignon. SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 00:07
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Trin Tragula posted:To be fair, that was the style at the time, onions having recently migrated from the belt thanks to American influence. Now, to take the ferry cost a rupee, and rupees in those days had pictures of bumblebees on them. They didn't have white onions because of the war, the only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...  The classic Simpsons will never leave us SeanBeansShako posted:Wingate was loving insane. Like 'giving commands naked with just a watch in the middle of the jungle' crazy. I knew he was eccentric, I didn't know he was going to fight Stonewall Jackson for being literally the insanest commander He thought soldiers were dying in the jungle because the fact that they could get medical treatment was making them soft I mean, I get how this guy got sent to Burma
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Aug 4, 2018 00:29
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It's funny though, you'll remember Wingate but aside from Monty a lot of the British generals of that war sort of just melt together into some sort of beige middle of the road blob.
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Aug 4, 2018 00:32
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Who was that American General in...Burma who was trying to make a SS, American style? (IE not racist but selected specifically for ideology to make them tougher in the face of adversity?)
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Aug 4, 2018 00:50
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Nebakenezzer posted:Who was that American General in...Burma who was trying to make a SS, American style? (IE not racist but selected specifically for ideology to make them tougher in the face of adversity?) I don't know the answer, but I'd put money on it being Stillwell.
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Aug 4, 2018 01:17
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Merill?
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Aug 4, 2018 01:25
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's funny though, you'll remember Wingate but aside from Monty a lot of the British generals of that war sort of just melt together into some sort of beige middle of the road blob. A whole gaggle of Mustached Brits in Khakis, but can you guess WHICH one is an incompetent boob, and WHICH one will save Europe?
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Aug 4, 2018 01:33
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's funny though, you'll remember Wingate but aside from Monty a lot of the British generals of that war sort of just melt together into some sort of beige middle of the road blob. Slim is criminally under appreciated.
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Aug 4, 2018 01:38
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Lobster God posted:Slim is criminally under appreciated. Is this a joke about his child molestation?
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Aug 4, 2018 01:40
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's funny though, you'll remember Wingate but aside from Monty a lot of the British generals of that war sort of just melt together into some sort of beige middle of the road blob. O'Connor was pretty neat, Dempsey did his job and did it well, and de Wiart was probably almost half as nutty as Wingate.
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Aug 4, 2018 01:59
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Put a small rocket engine in their tails maybe? Durandals were so incredibly hardcore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj_cjcyjMHc Question - did USSR have something similar, i.e. rocket-assisted penetration bombs?
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Aug 4, 2018 05:45
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Nebakenezzer posted:Who was that American General in...Burma who was trying to make a SS, American style? (IE not racist  Given the US army was segregated I guarantee black people weren't invited.
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Aug 4, 2018 05:48
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Epicurius posted:They were not one of the better ones, no. They defected to the Free French en masse and took their mortars and AT guns with them. Best SS ever imo
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Aug 4, 2018 05:55
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spectralent posted:Speaking of the Vietnam stuff from a few days ago, how frequently were the conscripts able to call artillery and air support? Was there a ton of training involved for that? I'm aware that artillery observation is a specialist job that usually comes with a bunch of attendant equipment, so presumably it was a lot more guesswork, but was it particularly regimented or was it just getting on a phone and estimating a spot you wanted erased from reality? I'm pretty sure it was usually the officer/senior NCO still alive (if the college boys had gotten themselves killed) calling the shots (quite literally, ha) and the enlisted man on the radio just relaying said orders. But I'm pretty sure map reading with the little clear plastic card that divides a grid square into artillery-shell-sized units is taught in Basic. (Disclaimer: I was smart enough to not join the US Army in 2000, so I can't say for sure, but they taught us that in JROTC, which I took because marching around the parking lot, learning the right way to shoot a rifle, and wearing the pickle suit once a week was accepted as an alternative to sports.) Speaking of parachute mishaps, one time in jump school Dad was the last man out the door before the drop was called off for weather reasons. He landed just as the wind picked up, got dragged on his back (turns out a parachute is also a really good sail, who'da thunk) long enough to pull out and open his nice German switchblade his older brother had bought for him when stationed there, and just as he reached up to cut the shroud lines (the original use of paracord, connecting the harness to the 'chute), he woke up in a hospital. He'd run headfirst into a tree stump and got a massive concussion. The worst part was that he never did find his favorite knife. Then there was the time in SF school when it was hot out, so they decided to drop into a lake wearing only shorts and their parachutes (they did pretty constant training/requalification jumps, more to practice the "leaving the airplane and making a landing" bit, the combat-training jumps were fewer and a bifferent thing. Dad got on every one he could because he got an extra $5 per jump, his brother the officer didn't need the hazard pay, and only did the minimum to keep his wings.) The lake was surrounded by brambles on three sides. So Dad and most of the guys were enjoying a nice swim when the wind changed and the last few guys out of the plane got blown into the thornbushes. Once they recovered from being scratched to poo poo, they thought it was pretty funny, too. Chillbro Baggins fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 05:58
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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How did defectors work in ancient times? Like at Salamis how did the Greeks know the Greek Persian ships had defected? Did they just start ramming Persians? Same with land battles, did they start attacking friendlies, and then other side assumed they'd switched?
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Aug 4, 2018 08:50
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Gervasius posted:Durandals were so incredibly hardcore. There is also the JP233, a anti-runway bomb made by the British. In addition to a primary charge that fucks up the runway, the explosion scatters small anti personell bomblets with variable fuses all over the place, meaning the poor fuckers tasked with repairing the runway after you bomb it have to deal with a runway that is not only hosed up but also covered in tiny bombs constantly going off all over the place. Not cricket if you ask me.
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Aug 4, 2018 09:17
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spectralent posted:Speaking of the Vietnam stuff from a few days ago, how frequently were the conscripts able to call artillery and air support? Was there a ton of training involved for that? I'm aware that artillery observation is a specialist job that usually comes with a bunch of attendant equipment, so presumably it was a lot more guesswork, but was it particularly regimented or was it just getting on a phone and estimating a spot you wanted erased from reality? Caveat: "its complicated" Air support and artillery control support was usually at the battalion level. Each battalion had the equivalent of what is now a Fires Cell, which is where artillery fire direction guys and air force tactical air control guys (TACP) sit together and plan out what to do to who. A call for fire comes in from wherever, they assess what is available, and match target to system. Targeting data could come from forward air controllers (these guys were nearly always airborne in Vietnam, either in helicopters or in rickety prop planes), TACPs, or anyone on the ground calling for fire in a forward observer role. Calling for fire is really pretty simple - you just give your grid, distance and direction to the target, and describe the target. Most people can do it without a whole lot of extra training, provided you know where you are on the map and you can estimate distance reasonably well. All of the calculation happens at the battalion - the company HQ passes up calls for fire they can't handle with company mortars to battalion, who then decides to either use battalion mortars, attached arty (if they have it), higher echelon artillery, or air support. You had dedicated FOs down to the platoon level, but in the Vietnam era they really weren't all that important - everything was mass/area fire, so as long as you knew your position and how to adjust fire you could handle it. Nowadays poo poo has to be mensurated and targets much more carefully identified, so FOs are a lot more important
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