Religionthread: Mass at 5am so we can have breakfast earlier

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StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Idk theres some commonality in being really into Logic and Reason. Hadn't seen that article before either, I had been under the impression Alexander was less of a dipahit than the other lesswrong esque people. (The tranahumanism is still kinda weird tho)

# ? Aug 29, 2018 13:47

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 22:34

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

pidan posted:

It also has a tendency to "openly discuss" all kinds of things that are not generally considered open to discussion, like the benefits of fascism.

i have lived in non-DE environments all my life and in academia for most of it. people say "oh these ideas are so taboo, let's explore the forbidden ideas" but in my experience everyone i know has been open to thought experiments of all kinds. it's difficult to discuss plato's Republic or Laws without talking about authoritarianism for instance, and it would be intellectually dishonest (and therefore immoral) not to

the reason some ideas aren't discussed isn't that they're suppressed by The Cathedral, it's that if you read more history you know they end in failure. this is so irrespective of your moral stance. (Assume fascism is morally neutral. According to Eco, they are incapable of truly judging their own military capacity or that of their enemies. If he's correct, that's a sub optimal way to fight a war.)

this is also what i think is wrong with the enlightenment part of the dark enlightenment, the technological utopia. human beings are fallible and so are their products, history is indefinitely complex and most of that complexity takes the form of people not being as good at what they do as they thought they would be.

but this entire community eschews history as a discipline so they can reinvent the wheel from first principles

if you are intelligent it is immoral to be that poorly read

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 14:03

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

StashAugustine posted:

Idk theres some commonality in being really into Logic and Reason. Hadn't seen that article before either, I had been under the impression Alexander was less of a dipahit than the other lesswrong esque people. (The tranahumanism is still kinda weird tho)

Hey, I want my laser eyes and chrome butt

# ? Aug 29, 2018 14:04

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

HEY GUNS posted:

i have lived in non-DE environments all my life and in academia for most of it. people say "oh these ideas are so taboo, let's explore the forbidden ideas" but in my experience everyone i know has been open to thought experiments of all kinds. it's difficult to discuss plato's Republic or Laws without talking about authoritarianism for instance, and it would be intellectually dishonest (and therefore immoral) not to

the reason some ideas aren't discussed isn't that they're suppressed by The Cathedral, it's that if you have any understanding of history whatsoever you know they end in failure. this is so irrespective of your moral stance.

this is also what i think is wrong with the enlightenment part of the dark enlightenment, the technological utopia. human beings are fallible and so are their products, history is indefinitely complex and most of that complexity takes the form of people not being as good at what they do as they thought they would be.

but this entire community eschews history as a discipline so they can reinvent the wheel from first principles

For some reason "what if black people are inherently inferior" is treated as unexplored territory that only bold logicmasters dare touch, and not the primary focus of social sciences for the first fifty years of their existence.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 14:17

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

JcDent posted:

Hey, I want my laser eyes and chrome butt

Settle down there, laputan machine

# ? Aug 29, 2018 14:23

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

P-Mack posted:

For some reason "what if black people are inherently inferior" is treated as unexplored territory that only bold logicmasters dare touch, and not the primary focus of social sciences for the first fifty years of their existence.

the counterpoint to this is i have seen some internet leftists say that there is no such thing as differences of intelligence, capacity, or talent among human beings, which is also absurd

# ? Aug 29, 2018 14:26

The Phlegmatist: Nov 24, 2003

G�nswein: Benedict did not 'confirm' Vigano testimony

quote:

Vatican City, Aug 28, 2018 / 05:10 pm (CNA).- Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI�s personal secretary said Tuesday that the former pope has not commented on a testimony released Saturday by a former Vatican ambassador, and that he has no plans to do so.

Archbishop Georg G�nswein told German newspaper Die Tagepost Aug. 28 that accounts Benedict had �confirmed� Vigano�s testimony were �fake news.�

lol.

despite how amazingly incompetent this hit job is, it performed its purpose in emboldening the reactionaries. who are now Extremely Concerned about the victims of abuse...whom they are currently using as a cudgel against a pope they never liked in the first place

e: there have been two major advocacy groups so far that have made statements to the effect of "this is dumb, why are you old men fighting, let's get back to talking about investigating abuse 'cause we were getting somewhere with that finally"

The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 14:37

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

to get an elderly german to say that, one must be very blatant indeed

# ? Aug 29, 2018 14:45

Senju Kannon: Apr 9, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

HEY GUNS posted:

the counterpoint to this is i have seen some internet leftists say that there is no such thing as differences of intelligence, capacity, or talent among human beings, which is also absurd

i think the leftist stance is that under capitalism, it is impossible to determine if there are such differences between individuals, because the largest contributor to poor test scores, failure to graduate (either high school or college), and poor life outcomes in general is poverty. are there some people more talented than others, or are some people economically well off enough to practice consistently? are some people smarter than others, or are some people able to have parents who have the free time to engage with their kids schoolwork and encourage them in their efforts? there are people able to shine under poverty, but how many more would be able to without poverty?

# ? Aug 29, 2018 18:44

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

HEY GUNS posted:

this is also what i think is wrong with the enlightenment part of the dark enlightenment, the technological utopia.

Almost none of the DE are techno-utopists or transhumanists, they only care about hating others and technology (save for their dark web safe space) rarely scratches that itch well enough.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 19:06

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

Senju Kannon posted:

i think the leftist stance is that under capitalism, it is impossible to determine if there are such differences between individuals, because the largest contributor to poor test scores, failure to graduate (either high school or college), and poor life outcomes in general is poverty. are there some people more talented than others, or are some people economically well off enough to practice consistently? are some people smarter than others, or are some people able to have parents who have the free time to engage with their kids schoolwork and encourage them in their efforts? there are people able to shine under poverty, but how many more would be able to without poverty?

Well obviously some people just suck, as evidenced by how many rich, privileged, yet incredibly dumb people there are.

But yeah there's so many factors in play that it's really hard to pull any given one out. Which is why it's really hosed up that given this huge mess of confusing data to work with people zero in on trying to prove a 0.005% race/IQ correlation. Yes you're "just asking questions" but why did you pick that question out of a million others that haven't been answered? You're "just stating the facts" but there's a hundred other facts you could have stated that may have been more interesting. Given a long and inglorious history of this kind of poo poo directly harming people, there's zero reason to tolerate it as up for friendly civil debate.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/the-real-problem-with-charles-murray-and-the-bell-curve/

This puts it more eloquently than I can-the problem with Murray et al isn't that they have the wrong regression line on the graph on page 234 (even if they very well do), it's hey dude why on earth are you even doing this in the first place.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 19:25

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Tias posted:

Almost none of the DE are techno-utopists or transhumanists, they only care about hating others and technology (save for their dark web safe space) rarely scratches that itch well enough.

they really are, that's the difference between them and your garden-variety reactionary, scientific racist, or neo-Nazi. Hell it's bled into the mainstream alt-right, there are alt-rightists who keep talking about how we would all live in a dyson sphere now if black people didn't exist

edit: the DE talk about racist transhumanism but the guys who write patriot fiction talk about living a morally pure existance in the woods. they're not the same even though they're both racists

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 19:42

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

HEY GUNS posted:

they really are, that's the difference between them and your garden-variety reactionary, scientific racist, or neo-Nazi. Hell it's bled into the mainstream alt-right, there are alt-rightists who keep talking about how we would all live in a dyson sphere now if black people didn't exist

I think Tias is thinking of the other strain of these weirdos, the ones who want a monarchist neo-feudal pastoral utopia, like Dreher's Benedict Option but explicitly racist.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 19:53

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

P-Mack posted:

I think Tias is thinking of the other strain of these weirdos, the ones who want a monarchist neo-feudal pastoral utopia, like Dreher's Benedict Option but explicitly racist.

i hate these people especially as a monarchist

nothing bites you like a racist distortion of yourself

# ? Aug 29, 2018 19:56

Senju Kannon: Apr 9, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

�who are you?�

�i�m you but racist�

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:21

Keromaru5: Dec 28, 2012; Pictured: The Wolf Of Gubbio (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Has anybody actually tried reading Moldbug's manifesto? I could only get through parts three or four. It's even more tl;dr than tl;dr.

Tias posted:

Almost none of the DE are techno-utopists or transhumanists, they only care about hating others and technology (save for their dark web safe space) rarely scratches that itch well enough.

The weird thing about the DE is that a lot of them are Silicon Valley types. IIRC, one of the first people to really hype it up in the early '10's was some trans Google employee who claimed to be a big part of OWS.

Or maybe it's not weird, because if tech companies have proven anything, it's that they do not have a healthy relationship with democracy and justice.

Senju Kannon posted:

�who are you?�

�i�m you but racist�

Worst "We're not so different" villain speech ever.

Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:23

The Phlegmatist: Nov 24, 2003

the lord's believers did nothing wrong

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:23

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

The Phlegmatist posted:

the lord's believers did nothing wrong

In SMAC? They didn't really. Miriam and Lal are really the only two faction leaders not to embrace full transhumanist dehumanizing horror.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:36

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Senju Kannon posted:

�who are you?�

�i�m you but racist�

i know, right? like if someone with your beliefs met an an-cap or a guy who read herman hoppe. like you after you step into the baited trap or ate the poisoned apple

speaking of, i bring you a peace offering, you'll love this
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:40

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

Epicurius posted:

In SMAC? They didn't really. Miriam and Lal are really the only two faction leaders not to embrace full transhumanist dehumanizing horror.

Miriam gets a bad rap because her AI in-game was such a dick.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:42

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

P-Mack posted:

Miriam gets a bad rap because her AI in-game was such a dick.

Super aggressive, IIRC?

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:53

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

quote:

speaking of, i bring you a peace offering, you'll love this
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/

that story is actually appropriate for this thread, as it would definitely get canonized if the yospos bitcoin thread ever assembled a Bitcoin Stories bible

# ? Aug 29, 2018 20:57

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

Lutha Mahtin posted:

that story is actually appropriate for this thread, as it would definitely get canonized if the yospos bitcoin thread ever assembled a Bitcoin Stories bible

And now, a reading from the Book of French Engineer in Brazil

# ? Aug 29, 2018 21:05

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Deidre did some dark poo poo to get there but the Transcendence ending is the only happy ending to AC

also Miriam's final quote heavily implies that she commits suicide and urges her followers to do the same once she no longer believes her war against scientific progress is winnable

# ? Aug 29, 2018 21:10

Senju Kannon: Apr 9, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

HEY GUNS posted:

i know, right? like if someone with your beliefs met an an-cap or a guy who read herman hoppe. like you after you step into the baited trap or ate the poisoned apple

speaking of, i bring you a peace offering, you'll love this
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/

i love that story so much

those greek anarchists gave that fucker so much hospitality

# ? Aug 29, 2018 21:22

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

and then they were all like "noooooo"

# ? Aug 29, 2018 21:25

hailthefish: Oct 24, 2010

Epicurius posted:

In SMAC? They didn't really. Miriam and Lal are really the only two faction leaders not to embrace full transhumanist dehumanizing horror.

Tbh it's getting pretty tempting to start spraypainting "We Must Dissent" on things.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 21:50

The Phlegmatist: Nov 24, 2003

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Deidre did some dark poo poo to get there but the Transcendence ending is the only happy ending to AC

also Miriam's final quote heavily implies that she commits suicide and urges her followers to do the same once she no longer believes her war against scientific progress is winnable

SMAC had some deep themes which would have been better in literally any other medium because I don't think a lot of people realized just how dark that game was.

The weird Objectivist/Dark Enlightenment/Transhumanist thing is honestly the most evil modern ideology that exists, and a lot of techbros just eat that poo poo up. It's like you shove the tedious John Galt speech right into Shadowrun and think "yeah this is ethical."

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:08

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

The Phlegmatist posted:

The weird Objectivist/Dark Enlightenment/Transhumanist thing is honestly the most evil modern ideology that exists, and a lot of techbros just eat that poo poo up. It's like you shove the tedious John Galt speech right into Shadowrun and think "yeah this is ethical."

calvinism is the most evil ideology imo

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:14

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

to back up my claim about Transcendence a bit

any other ending either means that in the long run humanity genocided the native Planet intelligence, or vice-versa
any ending other than transcendence or diplomatic means one faction crushed all the others
in the transcendence ending, everyone gets to be immortal thought-forms for the rest of history. this explicitly includes whoever the game calculates to be your worst mortal enemy (based on hidden factors I'm not 100% clear on, but it's generally pretty accurate) and they're called out in the ending fiction as a kind of "trickster" entity that keeps the rest of you honest.
there's no way to cut them out of the process, IIRC even if you turn on the ability to permanently eliminate factions (which is off by default) and destroy them first, they still show up

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Aug 29, 2018

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:15

The Phlegmatist: Nov 24, 2003

HEY GUNS posted:

calvinism is the most evil ideology imo

techbros subscribe to calvinism except it's an IQ test instead of a seemingly-capricious God

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:20

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

HEY GUNS posted:

calvinism is the most evil ideology imo

I have no idea how Calvinism caught on.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:21

Senju Kannon: Apr 9, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

being able to be saved without any effort, or be damned regardless? it�s a theology that demands little and expects less

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:23

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Senju Kannon posted:

being able to be saved without any effort, or be damned regardless? it�s a theology that demands little and expects less

not to be rude, but isn't the possibility of being saved just for asking one of the major selling points of your sect?

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:24

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

It just seems designed to inflict maximum misery, either by someone who is certain they're saved regardless and so can justify whatever awful poo poo they want to do, or by other people driving themselves to distraction fretting over if they're saved or not and trying to confirm it for themselves by conforming like mad.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:25

pidan: Nov 6, 2012

pidan fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Dec 19, 2019

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:27

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Senju Kannon posted:

being able to be saved without any effort, or be damned regardless? it�s a theology that demands little and expects less

ugly snort

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:29

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

The Phlegmatist posted:

techbros subscribe to calvinism except it's an IQ test instead of a seemingly-capricious God

iq has to do with things you do and accomplish. damning someone before you create them with nothing to do with the morality of their future deeds is the worst thing it is possible to imagine a deity doing

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:30

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

pidan posted:

See in the 16th century the weather in central Europe became really bad and people were basically constantly beset by the four horsemen and I guess "why do bad things happen to good people" became a very pressing question then.

Also near my hometown a robber knight was captured but escaped when he offered to jump over the castle moat with his horse and subsequently actually did manage to pull it off.

16th century was a wild time

the early modern ruled

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:31

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 22:34

The Phlegmatist: Nov 24, 2003

HEY GUNS posted:

iq has to do with things you do and accomplish. damning someone before you create them with nothing to do with the morality of their future deeds is the worst thing it is possible to imagine a deity doing

okay so what happens when peter thiel starts up his breeding program so he can eat people's stem cells

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:37

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