|
Char definitely wants to get people into space to become Newtypes in Zeta. It’s the whole reason the Argama has kids on board.
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 09:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:53 |
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Char definitely wants to get people into space to become Newtypes in Zeta. It’s the whole reason the Argama has kids on board. As for Deikun, didn't he actually not say much about what a 'new type of human' would be, and 'Newtype' kind of became a generic eyerolly term for anybody claiming paranormal abilities - which of course did not end when people moved to space, humans being humans - until the term got applied to the ACTUAL spatial/empathic/telepathic phenomenon that can fly the Gundam good? I remember hearing that but I forget from where. The novels?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 10:13
|
|
|
You might be thinking of the secret charter in Unicorn. Zeon Zum Deikun definitely thought humans would evolve psychic communication abilities.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 14:26
|
|
|
The secret charter is so dumb. Thank god Narrative says that revealing its contents achieved nothing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 14:42
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:The secret charter is so dumb. Thank god Narrative says that revealing its contents achieved nothing. Hell, even people in Unicorn question whether revealing what's in the box would do loving anything, with them even admitting smart money is on it doing nothing at all. It's even explicitly pointed out how weird it is that this document, which has no real power and is written such that it has a pile of obvious loopholes, developed such a reputation that it basically let the Vist Foundation do whatever the hell it wanted. I've said it before but from a meta context the irrelevance of the box really is Unicorn's biggest problem, it builds itself up to be a pivotal turning point in the history of the Universal Century but from the start it literally COULD NOT be a pivotal turning point in the history of the Universal Century because that setting is already earmarked for at least another hundred years of strife and decay. Banagher, Audrey, Riddhe, and all the rest didn't change the world, their possibilities were doomed from the start.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 15:38
|
|
|
I think they're going for a Fallout style "War Never Changes" thing with the secret being a big pile of nothing, but I can't really say that's supported by basically anything else in Unicorn.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 17:20
|
|
|
Omnicrom posted:Hell, even people in Unicorn question whether revealing what's in the box would do loving anything, with them even admitting smart money is on it doing nothing at all. It's even explicitly pointed out how weird it is that this document, which has no real power and is written such that it has a pile of obvious loopholes, developed such a reputation that it basically let the Vist Foundation do whatever the hell it wanted. Gundam as a whole has repeatedly made points like "heartlessly sacrificing some people for the greater good is pretty hosed up." Judging things on their concrete, utilitarian effects on the world is not generally how the good guys of Gundam do things. Mineva explicitly renounces her earlier policy of choosing the lesser of two evils in the name of stability, and Banagher's often-mocked cries of "But still!" are generally in response to someone suggesting something sensible yet awful (in fact, "sensible yet awful" would probably be a good descriptions of about a quarter of all Gundam antagonists). Judging them solely on the concrete political consequences of their actions seems to be missing the point. Also, there is something ironic about looking at a show that says "our futures should not be predetermined by yesterday's stories" and responding with "well a TV series from the 90s shows us their future is still lovely, so I guess this was all just a huge waste of time."
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
The problem is that Banagher never goes beyond that "But". When Amuro and Char spar, they both have something to say. Same with most other Tomino Gundam protagonist, and even a few others like Domon. In X D.O.M.E. is the one that ends up rebutting the bad guy's words. But Banagher doesn't say anything. Much like Kira Yamato in SeeD. They are empty.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 18:22
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:The problem is that Banagher never goes beyond that "But". When Amuro and Char spar, they both have something to say. Same with most other Tomino Gundam protagonist, and even a few others like Domon. In X D.O.M.E. is the one that ends up rebutting the bad guy's words. The problem with Banagher's talk comes from the way Unicorn is at odds with itself. Banagher talks a lot about possible futures, but that talk is metatextually hollow when we KNOW what the future holds. His message of hope is less inspiring and more pitiable in the context of UC 96, and the real problem is that the series at once positions it as the morally correct perspective while not letting us forget it's a futile and sad perspective. From an in-universe perspective Banagher isn't wrong to want to believe in a brighter tomorrow where people can be free from the demons of their past, he's arguably correct when he argues against the cruelty on both sides of the conflict, but Unicorn is so deeply enmeshed in UC history and minutia that it's drat near impossible to buy into the pathos of it. Unicorn has so many callbacks to previous UC Shows (and a handful of call forwards) that you never forget it's a UC show (it's in the title!), and knowing it's a UC show just makes Banagher's hope seem so hopeless. Is it really missing the point of a series to point out that what the series wants to be (an inspiring message of hope and possiblity) is undercut by the other thing the series wants to be (a big deal, big budget, fanservice laden UC Gundam historical tour and callback)? And I don't believe for a second that the writers missed this, Banagher's dreams of a better possibility are fleeting and ephemeral. We know more about what Banagher's position isn't than what it is. Banagher rejects the EFA's callousness, Zeon's old scars, and Frontal's dream of a marginalized Earth, but has little to say about his own position other than "I want to believe the future will be better". What Unicorn needed was to actually show there were people who were working to find a different way. The series needed more bits with people like Kai and Beltorchika and Bright showing they were working in their own ways to circumvent the system and better the world in whatever way they can. If Unicorn really wanted to proceed with its message of hope it needed more honesty about how long it would take to fix the utterly hosed up world of the Universal Century. Banagher always talked like the bright future he believed in would be in his own lifetime, and I can't believe that because I KNOW it isn't true. Am I wrong for not believing in someone I absolutely KNOW 100% for sure is wrong? I almost wish they'd opened the box in movie 6, and spent movie 7 exploring the lack of results and progressing Banagher et. al. so they realized that their dream wouldn't end with them but their children or even their children's children. One of Unicorn's major themes is of inheritance, what passes from parent to child. So many people in Unicorn inherited some form of hatred or some ugly legacy, ending Unicorn with the cast choosing to pass on their hopes instead would be a drat sight more appropriate for the attempted themes of the show than, well, Unicorn movie 7.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 19:41
|
|
|
Omnicrom posted:If Unicorn really wanted to proceed with its message of hope it needed more honesty about how long it would take to fix the utterly hosed up world of the Universal Century. Banagher always talked like the bright future he believed in would be in his own lifetime, and I can't believe that because I KNOW it isn't true. Am I wrong for not believing in someone I absolutely KNOW 100% for sure is wrong? That is literally the opposite of what happens. Full Frontal tries to confront Banagher with the idea that peace won't come ever and Banagher still rejects him. He never actually argues that it would be within his lifetime. That is part of the point of the Magical Newtype Mystery Journey Through Time and what ultimately defeats Frontal because Banagher doesn't back down even in the face of the idea that peace won't come in a hundred lifetimes. Likewise if we know the UC, we do know things get worse but they also get better. The massive damage to the ecosystem for example is shown as being undone by the time of Turn-A and G-Reco and while people are hosed up the situation in Turn-A is infinitely better than the situation in the UC even with assholes like Gym running around. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Sep 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 19:53
|
|
|
DKD posted:Gundam as a whole has repeatedly made points like "heartlessly sacrificing some people for the greater good is pretty hosed up." Judging things on their concrete, utilitarian effects on the world is not generally how the good guys of Gundam do things. Mineva explicitly renounces her earlier policy of choosing the lesser of two evils in the name of stability, and Banagher's often-mocked cries of "But still!" are generally in response to someone suggesting something sensible yet awful (in fact, "sensible yet awful" would probably be a good descriptions of about a quarter of all Gundam antagonists). Judging them solely on the concrete political consequences of their actions seems to be missing the point. That's one of the interesting things about IBO, I think. Even before the ending, it's a constant theme that everyone has to do things they'd rather not. At the start, Kudelia's a pure idealist, someone with literal as well as metaphorical clean hands who has trouble accomplishing anything. Halfway in, she gets blood on them, and suddenly she's stopping whole fleets. Hell, in the second season, she and Rustal both have scenes where they make a deal with Nobliss, one of their companions discusses how much of a scumbag that guy is, and they remind that person that they can't be that much better if they're dealing with him. (Kudelia with considerably more regret than Rustal since, you know, she's a better person, but same basic sentiment.) It's a show where the most idealistic political actor (at least, the most idealistic one who accomplishes anything of note) has mob hitmen on speed dial. Where the UC's cynicism comes from no-one ever accomplishing anything good long term, PD's cynicism comes from what it takes to accomplish anything of value. (You'll note that the character who promises that he'll show the value of friendship and honor, a character who's generally shown to be one of the better people in the setting, accomplishes that dream by using one of his best friends as a living CPU and shooting the other dead while working for the most Machiavellian figure in the setting. Unlike most mech shows where something like this happens, this isn't shown as a betrayal of his principles.) chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Sep 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 19:58
|
|
|
Omnicrom posted:If Unicorn really wanted to proceed with its message of hope it needed more honesty about how long it would take to fix the utterly hosed up world of the Universal Century. Banagher always talked like the bright future he believed in would be in his own lifetime, and I can't believe that because I KNOW it isn't true. Am I wrong for not believing in someone I absolutely KNOW 100% for sure is wrong? Yes, because this is anime, and whenever someone like you shows up with a prophecy saying THIS IS DESTINY, YOU CANNOT RESIST, our hero does resist and changes destiny with his burning spirit. I also disagree that we should dogmatically accept Victory and other existing late-UC works as unambiguously canonically defining what will happen in the future, given its relative neglect and lack of connection to other works, especially when the show goes out of its way to say things like "Earlier stories should not define the future!" and "Who knows what will happen? No, seriously, we don't know what the future holds." (Also, should we read anything into the fact that there is no foreshadowing or call-forwards concerning V or F91?) The ending is a clumsy, ham-handed deus ex machina, but I don't think there's anything objectionable about the deus itself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 21:01
|
|
|
Does unicorn actually deny or render noncanonical the future of f91 or victory though?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
I wish The Origin manga would get released in digital format or something because $30 CAD per volume is horseshit.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 22:06
|
|
|
Does anything actually happen in Victory/F91 that plays as ‘consequences of past UC events’ or are they just, more or less, Gundam reboots set in the same chronology? E: same question for greco I guess
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 22:09
|
|
|
Argas posted:I wish The Origin manga would get released in digital format or something because $30 CAD per volume is horseshit. You can read it on Comic Walker.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 22:14
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Does anything actually happen in Victory/F91 that plays as ‘consequences of past UC events’ or are they just, more or less, Gundam reboots set in the same chronology? The baddies of the day in F91 and Victory explicitly roll in because of the gradual collapse of the Federation, which is a plausible consequence of the Box being opened. G-Reco happens hundreds (or even thousands) of years after the Universal Century goes to hell in a handbasket - it’s unclear what caused this, but possibly the burgeoning climate disaster we see the early stages of in Victory.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 22:18
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:The baddies of the day in F91 and Victory explicitly roll in because of the gradual collapse of the Federation, which is a plausible consequence of the Box being opened. G-Reco happens hundreds (or even thousands) of years after the Universal Century goes to hell in a handbasket - it’s unclear what caused this, but possibly the burgeoning climate disaster we see the early stages of in Victory. Really the Federation's issues stem all the way back to the OYW, that basically crippled them in a way they never really recovered from, all the subsequent conflicts only magnified the problem even further
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 22:43
|
|
|
Isn't Unicorn something of a decisive victory for them? Granted they are fighting the last dregs of Zeon at a point in history where their technology well outstripped their enemy's, but they did pull a victory with minimal casualties. 10,000 or so dead between Dakar and Torrington and probably several hundred at Palau is nothing compared to colony drops killing half of the species and two vicious wars happening in sequence, but it is a victory.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 22:49
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Char definitely wants to get people into space to become Newtypes in Zeta. It’s the whole reason the Argama has kids on board. Huh? What gave you that idea? The reason he gives is that he feels like he wants to take care of someone in place of Commodore Blex, and it can also be seen as him starting what he wants to do himself (i.e. moving people out in to space; the thing he talks about several times). Where is it implied or stated he's doing it because he hopes they'll become Newtypes? Nessus posted:What a jerk! He should give those children agonizing cyborg implants, like God intended. Funny you should mention that, since in the scene with him and Dr. Hasan discussing Cyber-Newtypes with Kamille the reason Char gives for why cyber-augmentation might be a necessary step is because if they waited for people to naturally evolve then the Earth would be destroyed while they did so. ImpAtom posted:That is literally the opposite of what happens. Full Frontal tries to confront Banagher with the idea that peace won't come ever and Banagher still rejects him. He never actually argues that it would be within his lifetime. That is part of the point of the Magical Newtype Mystery Journey Through Time and what ultimately defeats Frontal because Banagher doesn't back down even in the face of the idea that peace won't come in a hundred lifetimes. I thought Full Frontal's vision of the end of time was more meant to show that hope and possibility were themselves an illusion that blinded people to reality as a way to convince Banagher to see his point of view regarding the Co-Prosperity Sphere and the necessity of cruel but reasonable actions like it. That he shows Banagher the Axis Shock along with several of Amuro's battles appears to be to convince him that hopeful sacrifices don't achieve much, which he transitions to a view of the end of time to show that hope and illusion can't change reality on their own because everything will end despite them. Their confrontation is basically a continuation of Amuro and Char's argument over Axis at the end of Char's Counterattack. There too Char argues that the despite feeling the warmth of humanity that it means nothing, because the same people that possess such comforting warmth can still destroy the planet i.e. that their hope is meaningless. The fact that the first thing shown in Frontal's Newtype mind trip is the Axis Shock is probably no accident and seems to indicate that because nothing changed in the immediate future means nothing will change and this seems to be what is driving his almost nihilistic lack of personal drive and utilitarian worldview. What I think Char, and a lot of other's miss is that just because change won't happen immediately doesn't mean it won't happen. Char is just too impatient and wanted to force it when the Federation didn't start moving people within a handful of years (which is reasonable, given their recent history really; even if the political will was there), but Amuro argued with him at the end that they should have more faith in people and let them change naturally on their own. That F91 followed 30 years later, and Victory 40 years or so after that doesn't mean much because he wasn't saying if they just waited a few decades it'd happen; he was saying if they waited it'd happen with no definite time frame. Banagher and Mineva are much the same. Most people seem to think that because F91 and Victory follow them, that their desire for a better future is invalid, but it's no more invalid than Amuro's. It'll happen. Eventually. Change takes time though. In UC's case, that could be centuries, or even millenia because of how lovely the setting is. Ultimately it doesn't matter though, because they believed things would be better, even if it was in 100,000 years and making poo poo slightly better for some in the mean time at the cost of making it worse for others wasn't any good. ImpAtom posted:Likewise if we know the UC, we do know things get worse but they also get better. The massive damage to the ecosystem for example is shown as being undone by the time of Turn-A and G-Reco and while people are hosed up the situation in Turn-A is infinitely better than the situation in the UC even with assholes like Gym running around. Wasn't it part of G-Reco's setting that the majority of Earth was hosed ecologically, bar a few places like the surrounding of the Capital Tower? Hence why cannibalism is rumored to have been used in the past, to make up food stocks since the planet was so hosed. G-Reco seems to be showing a planet that's recovering, but still in bad shape on the whole rather than Turn A, where the planet seems to be recovered. General Battuta posted:Does anything actually happen in Victory/F91 that plays as ‘consequences of past UC events’ or are they just, more or less, Gundam reboots set in the same chronology? F91 and Victory were basically attempts to start a new "era" in UC going by interviews like this, with new casts, new villainous factions etc. to replace the Zeon era of early and more importantly, Amuro and Char, since they're such a central element of early UC. They don't carry over too much, presumably so that they can define their own identity and be friendly to new viewers. One of the bigger problems with UC and related universes like RC and CC to me is that Tomino keeps resetting the timeline so that the setting never really grows or shifts beyond the Earthsphere. There's some mention of humans leaving the Solar System in Turn A and a brief trip to Venus in G-Reco, but the problems and focus is still firmly on the Earthsphere. It makes the setting feel really repetitive and small. Darth Walrus posted:The baddies of the day in F91 and Victory explicitly roll in because of the gradual collapse of the Federation, which is a plausible consequence of the Box being opened. The gradual collapse of the Federation began with the One Year War really. Zeon lost the war, but the Federation never financially recovered from the costs of it and even a few years later in Zeta their premier military force are a fairly small group who struggle with a much smaller enemy than Zeon. By Char's Counterattack they're selling Axis to Char both because they need the money to continue their social welfare schemes and because doing so might avoid another war by just giving him what Spacenoids normally talk about wanting (i.e. independence).
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 22:52
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Where the UC's cynicism comes from no-one ever accomplishing anything good long term, PD's cynicism comes from what it takes to accomplish anything of value. The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 23:05
|
|
|
Banagher's quest for the Box was actually his attempt to get laid by a nominal Princess
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 00:28
|
|
|
tsob posted:Wasn't it part of G-Reco's setting that the majority of Earth was hosed ecologically, bar a few places like the surrounding of the Capital Tower? Hence why cannibalism is rumored to have been used in the past, to make up food stocks since the planet was so hosed. G-Reco seems to be showing a planet that's recovering, but still in bad shape on the whole rather than Turn A, where the planet seems to be recovered. The Earth IS recovered in G-Reco; the resource crises and cannibalism are far in the distant past, to the point where everyone has been living under the Photon Battery Economy for so long that it's become a religion. The conflict in G-Reco is touched off in part because the various nations on the recovered Earth are chafing under the photon battery ration because they've prospered and grown so much, and partially because the Earth has been so peaceful for so long that no one really knows what a real war is or how loving bad of an idea they are. The Amerians are treated as hardened veterans because they've been fighting border skirmishes for a few years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 00:45
|
|
|
Did Sunrise just license THX's entire sound library during the late 80s early 90s? Apparently the Geara Doga's backpack thrusters are the same engines as an X-Wing fighter.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 21:28
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:Did Sunrise just license THX's entire sound library during the late 80s early 90s? Apparently the Geara Doga's backpack thrusters are the same engines as an X-Wing fighter. Most likely it was just "borrowed because the Americans will never notice."
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 21:47
|
|
|
Watch/listen to F91.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 22:48
|
|
|
BizarroAzrael posted:Watch/listen to F91. Case in point. Skip to the 50 second mark for the full effect.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 22:51
|
|
|
I figured sound effects would be in a bit more of a grey area than actual plagiarized music.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 23:19
|
|
|
So Gundam Battle Operation 2 updated today and alongside adding a new map and doing some refinements it added a painting system for your suits, surprisingly for a Free to Play game it doesn't cost anything to access, you just need to be a certain rank to access it
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2018 02:50
|
|
|
Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Banagher's quest for the Box was actually his attempt to get laid by a nominal Princess Which, in fairness, makes total sense for a kid his age. In terms of protagonist motivations, I'm always gonna be a sucker for Judau. "Yes I can pilot this thing. Pay me and I'll do it more." It isn't until way later that he gets a personal bone to pick with Zeon, but before then he's just trying to make a living. On the one hand, it's pretty gross and does a good job of telling you how things are going for orphans like him at this point of UC history. On the other hand, it does make Judau likeable faster than it took for me to warm up to Kamille. Judau is just looking out for his own, and sees a massive payday waiting for him at the end of the war. Kamille took a little longer before I was actively rooting for him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2018 03:30
|
|
|
VolticSurge posted:Case in point. Skip to the 50 second mark for the full effect.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2018 08:44
|
|
|
How much do you want to bet Narrative took that name just so they could use the NT abbreviation for Newtype.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2018 23:54
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:How much do you want to bet Narrative took that name just so they could use the NT abbreviation for Newtype.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2018 23:57
|
|
|
Most definitely. Same reason Gundam Unicorn can be Gundam UC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 01:25
|
|
|
Remember when the Nintendo DS came out and every game on it had a name like Drive Shifters or Dimension Strike? Anything for that DS abrieve.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 01:28
|
|
|
HitTheTargets posted:Remember when the Nintendo DS came out and every game on it had a name like Drive Shifters or Dimension Strike? Anything for that DS abrieve. Or when pretty much every Super Nintendo game would include Super in the title, same with N64 and GBA with 64 and Advanced as well Basically it's a common motif for games on Nintendo consoles
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 03:13
|
|
|
HitTheTargets posted:Remember when the Nintendo DS came out and every game on it had a name like Drive Shifters or Dimension Strike? Anything for that DS abrieve. Dream Drop Distance
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 14:32
|
|
|
Szmitten posted:Dream Drop Distance You gotta admit though, that one's pretty clever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 14:41
|
|
|
Shinjobi posted:Which, in fairness, makes total sense for a kid his age. Just started a rewatch of ZZ, and mostly it makes him come off as an rear end after the first few times. He's trying to be a thief, who decides because his kawaii sister asks him to do the right thing he'll help the argama. Also the start to ZZ is such a departure from Zeta. its exceedingly childish and it's almost distracting how low rent a lot of the animation is right out of the gate. 7 or 8 episodes in, nothing has happened, it's full of gags, and ugh I forgot how long it takes this show to ramp up to being engaging. Marhsmellow day dreamin antagonist is just too funny he has no business being in a UC gundam show. I just don't know what Sunrise was thinking with how they launched this series. Judau isn't really that awful, but the schtick gets tired almost immediately. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Sep 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 18:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:53 |
|
|
ZZ launched what two weeks after Zeta ended?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 20:06
|
|