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EponymousMrYar posted:Tempering is something that Primals need to actively do
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Sep 9, 2018 22:04
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Peachy Poo posted:It's been a super long time, but doesn't the Ramuh part of 2.X say that this isn't the case? IIRC He's all like "Yeah all these dudes are tempered now. Sucks, but there's nothing I can do about it." Or am I totally misremembering? We’ve had this discussion before. It’s a bit inconsistent, shivas followers don’t seem to be tempered but Thordans do, so it seems like something a primal has specific choice over. Along with the Mogsguard not being tempered.
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Sep 9, 2018 22:25
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Yeah, as far as I can remember, tempering just kinda happens around primals. Part of what makes them so spooky since, even if one was theoretically summoned for non-destructive purposes, you've still created a group of brainwashed fanatics. E: is Shiva even on the same level as other primals? I always figured she wasn't quite as strong due to having a physical anchor.
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Sep 9, 2018 22:25
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ramuh is a weird duck for a number of reasons he's the primal most cognizant of his own true nature in a world where virtually all summons take a great deal of their temperament from their summoners
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Sep 9, 2018 22:27
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Peachy Poo posted:It's been a super long time, but doesn't the Ramuh part of 2.X say that this isn't the case? IIRC He's all like "Yeah all these dudes are tempered now. Sucks, but there's nothing I can do about it." Or am I totally misremembering? oh no blimp issue posted:We’ve had this discussion before. It’s a bit inconsistent, shivas followers don’t seem to be tempered but Thordans do, so it seems like something a primal has specific choice over. There's also the whole thing that happens with Lakshmi that lends credence to Tempering being something that Primals can control.
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Sep 9, 2018 22:39
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I unlocked Dark Knight, and I want to try it out, but I haven't played a tank before and I'm scared of people getting mad at me for not doing a good job. 
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Sep 9, 2018 22:53
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I unlocked Dark Knight, and I want to try it out, but I haven't played a tank before and I'm scared of people getting mad at me for not doing a good job. Just say upfront that you’re new when the dungeon starts and most players are happy to give you a lot of leeway. Start with like Sastasha and you’ll have a good time.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:00
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I unlocked Dark Knight, and I want to try it out, but I haven't played a tank before and I'm scared of people getting mad at me for not doing a good job. You're the tank, tell them to gently caress off. But in all seriousness, tanking is easy business, point the mobs away and keep their placement consistent and you'll be ahead of 90% of tanks already. Keeping threat isn't all too hard either, I only play PLD personally but open with the DRK versions of Shield Throw and Flash then your aggro combo and you'll have threat for trash pulls easily. Also don't save up your mitigation cooldowns for bosses, they're much better used in trash pulls.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:01
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EponymousMrYar posted:There's also the whole thing that happens with Lakshmi that lends credence to Tempering being something that Primals can control. I think the "tempering is just something that happens" take on tempering is something they've actively moved away from, yeah. At this point, I just take Ramuh's tempering aura as being some early installment weirdness when they were still hammering down the exact nature of primals.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:09
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Rainuwastaken posted:Yeah, as far as I can remember, tempering just kinda happens around primals. Part of what makes them so spooky since, even if one was theoretically summoned for non-destructive purposes, you've still created a group of brainwashed fanatics. Primal's relative power levels are never really discussed as far as I remember? Tsukuyomi is the only one that is described as a "weak primal", but that could have just been posturing on Asahi's part though. From a gameplay perspective too each primal is more powerful than the last through necessity.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:11
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Also remember that characters are actively learning things about Primals as the game progresses, before Moggle Mog no one realised you could summon basically anything you wanted. It's possible that from an in game academic perspective that they did think that tempering was something that just happened, but it turns out that's not true!
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Sep 9, 2018 23:13
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Well, everyone that has been tempered gets killed so it's not like there's much research that's able to be done.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:19
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Wacky Delly posted:Well, everyone that has been tempered gets killed so it's not like there's much research that's able to be done. It's kinda hard to do research on massive malignant representations of gods that want you dead or worse tbh.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:21
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EponymousMrYar posted:Tempering is something that Primals need to actively do Not always. Remember Ramuh! UHD posted:ramuh is a weird duck for a number of reasons Sylphs are extraordinarily red-pilled. oh no blimp issue posted:Primal's relative power levels are never really discussed as far as I remember? Tsukuyomi is the only one that is described as a "weak primal", but that could have just been posturing on Asahi's part though. Nero says Ifrit is pretty pitiful, too. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 23:30
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Odd question I can't remember coming up: What happens if a primal tries to temper someone already tempered by another primal?
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Sep 9, 2018 23:47
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I unlocked Dark Knight, and I want to try it out, but I haven't played a tank before and I'm scared of people getting mad at me for not doing a good job. This was the game that taught me tanking and yeah, it's really not that hard. Read your tooltips, let people know its your first time, and take your first few dungeons a bit slowly. Might annoy some dps but they'll live. 
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Sep 9, 2018 23:55
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ImpAtom posted:Odd question I can't remember coming up: It’s not come up afaik. Alternatively a fan theory is that we’ve been tempered by Hydelyn, so tempering is immutable and cannot be removed even by another Primal.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:56
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i mean a primal's strength is also stated to vary depending on how many crystals are used to summon it. unless that's also been quietly retconned.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:00
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oh no blimp issue posted:It’s not come up afaik. Ifrit says something about that when he tries to temper you. The blessing of Hydelyn preventing it or something.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:04
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Inflammatory posted:i mean a primal's strength is also stated to vary depending on how many crystals are used to summon it. unless that's also been quietly retconned. In one of the HW short stories Shiva summons herself with a single crystal. Which probably explains why she got jobed quite so hard by the airship.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:05
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That aspect is recent enough that it probably sticks. It's another showcase of primal power levels too, Ravana has most of his bug people with who knows how many crystals.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:06
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Wacky Delly posted:Ifrit says something about that when he tries to temper you. The blessing of Hydelyn preventing it or something. But is the blessing just tempering by another name?
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Sep 10, 2018 00:07
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Inflammatory posted:i mean a primal's strength is also stated to vary depending on how many crystals are used to summon it. unless that's also been quietly retconned. The amount of crystals has never really come up since ARR since we're past the early game where we have to explain why godlike entities are able to be beaten by some random adventurer who doesn't even have a Soul Crystal yet. That said, I always imagined Primal power levels as nebulous. You aren't going to convince me that Lakshmi is one of the strongest Primals in the story thus far. Certainly not compared to Alexander or Bahamut.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:16
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oh no blimp issue posted:But is the blessing just tempering by another name? I don't think so. I need to check the lore book again but I'm pretty sure it says tempering is a primal's aether partially overwriting the aether of its followers Hydaelyn's aether is just the Lifestream in general
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Sep 10, 2018 00:17
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Blockhouse posted:I don't think so. The ultimate tempering my dude
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Sep 10, 2018 00:19
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I think the WoL is something new and nobody is really sure what’s going on with that classy dame. Like other beings infer stuff and are sussing out the rules too. I don’t think hydaelynn is evil, I think she is running an experiment with us because the current cosmic status quo sucks and is doomed to eventually be eaten by zodiark because she is losing a war of attrition, so she is trying something different either by making a new kind of god to replace her or test running the idea of relinquishing her power into mortals which is also jrpg as hell.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:22
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Can you summon more than one copy of a primal at once? I think this has come up in the game before but I forget exactly.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:25
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Since it's the Echo that blocks tempering, if anything the Echo is what makes you "tempered" by Hydaelin. I'd be in the camp that says primals can't temper each other's tempered, though. The blessing was always about keeping you from being hassled by Ascians.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:27
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There's only one consciousness for a Primal, so nah. It's why Ultima Weapon was such an attractive means of deterrence.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:27
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:There's only one consciousness for a Primal, so nah. It's why Ultima Weapon was such an attractive means of deterrence. Why is that thought when it’s possible to straight up summon anything you like with enough crystals and belief?
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Sep 10, 2018 00:31
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oh no blimp issue posted:Why is that thought when it’s possible to straight up summon anything you like with enough crystals and belief? They've made it explicit several times throughout the plot that you need to have the knowledge of unspecified rituals that the Ascians provide before you can summon anything. It's why the Twelve aren't running around Eorzea despite a huge amount of belief and more than sufficient aether.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:37
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And yet Gilgamesh summons Enkidu just by wishing for him to be there.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:39
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Vermain posted:They've made it explicit several times throughout the plot that you need to have the knowledge of unspecified rituals that the Ascians provide before you can summon anything. It's why the Twelve aren't running around Eorzea despite a huge amount of belief and more than sufficient aether. With two exceptions to this, one for comedic value and the other being a major plot point that no Ascians were involved in so we still don't really know how it worked (other than yoship going "gently caress it, this will make a rad as hell CGI", and it was). e: ok three exceptions, there was also kobold kid and it seems unlikely that Ascians taught him anything.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:40
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oh no blimp issue posted:And yet Gilgamesh summons Enkidu just by wishing for him to be there. The Hildibrand stuff takes place in a slapstick setting where things are deliberately exaggerated for comedic effect. Thundarr posted:e: ok three exceptions, there was also kobold kid and it seems unlikely that Ascians taught him anything. They've never really said what the rituals are. My read on it is that the rituals needed were already in place, and all that was needed was the faith (or, in this case, total despair) to trigger it.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:42
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Thundarr posted:With two exceptions to this, one for comedic value and the other being a major plot point that no Ascians were involved in so we still don't really know how it worked (other than yoship going "gently caress it, this will make a rad as hell CGI", and it was). It doesn’t seem the rituals need necessarily be performed by the one who summons the primal, since Zenos taught Asahi the rituals but Tsukyomi ultimately summoned herself. And I forget if Shiva ever mentions if she spoke to Ascians?
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Sep 10, 2018 00:44
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Vermain posted:The Hildibrand stuff takes place in a slapstick setting where things are deliberately exaggerated for comedic effect.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:45
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Basically, primal summoning happens because they want to put it in the story and if the rules for how it happens are inconsistent, that's all right as long as I keep getting rad Soken tracks to kill gods by.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:48
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If the mogsguard spoke to Ascians can we suffer them to live?
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Sep 10, 2018 00:50
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Not always. Remember Ramuh! I did. I went back over all the footage I could find of Ramuh. AFAIK and remember everything that contradicts what I said is background information.
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Sep 10, 2018 01:08
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oh no blimp issue posted:And yet Gilgamesh summons Enkidu just by wishing for him to be there. Well he was also in possession of a bunch of crystals at the time. Also, Enkidu is female in XIV.
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Sep 10, 2018 01:22
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