HookedOnChthonics posted:

Genuinely v. curious what you imagine ‘well constructed armor’ that weighs less than the greatcoat you already carry for when it rains and the hair that is already growing out of your head might look like.

sullat posted:

It's funny how youtube thinks that the next videos I want to watch are Nazi propaganda.

The Lone Badger posted:

Edit: I'm overcomplicating this. Essentially my question boils down to: people who don't want to be hit with swords used to wear specifically constructed items made of iron, treated leather etc. In the era we now discuss some people have decided that they don't really care about swords any more since they'll probably get shot, and wear no armour. Some other people in this era still don't want to be hit with swords - what has changed that they now favour using multi-purpose items to prevent this rather than purpose-built items?

The Lone Badger posted:

Well, looking at the earlier example of musket balls braided into your hair. Lead is a terrible material for armour, it's soft and very heavy and spheres aren't a great shape either. If we take the same weight of steel and make a light mail coif (using thin wire and wide rings to keep weight down) then you've got something that is substantially more protective, sits more evenly on the head, and which can be taken off.

Edit: I'm overcomplicating this. Essentially my question boils down to: people who don't want to be hit with swords used to wear specifically constructed items made of iron, treated leather etc. In the era we now discuss some people have decided that they don't really care about swords any more since they'll probably get shot, and wear no armour. Some other people in this era still don't want to be hit with swords - what has changed that they now favour using multi-purpose items to prevent this rather than purpose-built items?

sullat posted:

It's funny how youtube thinks that the next videos I want to watch are Nazi propaganda.

Epicurius posted:

Well, obviously, you have to feed troops, and sometimes it's not feasible to cook meals for them. So, you give them field rations, for them to carry around with them. They need to be light, calorically dense, and preservable. The US stated giving soldiers prepared ration packs in 1907 with the "Iron ration', which was basically this compressed bar made from wheat and bullion that soldiers could eat raw or boil in water.

The Lone Badger posted:

Well, looking at the earlier example of musket balls braided into your hair. Lead is a terrible material for armour, it's soft and very heavy and spheres aren't a great shape either. If we take the same weight of steel and make a light mail coif (using thin wire and wide rings to keep weight down) then you've got something that is substantially more protective, sits more evenly on the head, and which can be taken off.

Edit: I'm overcomplicating this. Essentially my question boils down to: people who don't want to be hit with swords used to wear specifically constructed items made of iron, treated leather etc. In the era we now discuss some people have decided that they don't really care about swords any more since they'll probably get shot, and wear no armour. Some other people in this era still don't want to be hit with swords - what has changed that they now favour using multi-purpose items to prevent this rather than purpose-built items?

feedmegin posted:

I really hope you mean bouillon here and not, like, gold.

feedmegin posted:

I really hope you mean bouillon here and not, like, gold.

sullat posted:

It's funny how youtube thinks that the next videos I want to watch are Nazi propaganda.

Siivola posted:

Who's going to pay for this well-constructed armour?

Cessna posted:

Huh - the Nazis HATED All Quiet on the Western Front.

Fangz posted:

Do your bit for the war effort, dislike and blacklist every nazi channel you see.

Don Gato posted:

My top recommendation was a video titled "Native American Genocide was a Myth!" and I hate everyone that it exists.

Tunicate posted:

downvotes still count as engagement on youtube

Fangz posted:

Do your bit for the war effort, dislike and blacklist every nazi channel you see.

zoux posted:

Whoa the dude that grabs the wire and then BOOM just hands. Surprised you could be that graphic in 1930. This is also right after movies start having sound, I imagine the constant barrage of explosions and gunfire would've been really impactful to a 1930's era film goer.

HEY GUNS posted:

i watch religious poo poo, folk music, and rap, and get nazi propaganda

Cessna posted:

Arban posted:

The winged hussars would be taking battle-selfies if they had the technology, wouldn't they.

golden bubble posted:

It's been out on the civilian market for a while, but it's finally arrived at the US military. The pizza MRE is here. How did they come up with the idea of the MRE? Is it just a natural outgrowth of the obsession with scientific food in the later 20th century?

quote:

As anyone who's even glanced at history would notice, humanity only started its current pace of rapid expansion and technological/cultural evolution in (relatively) extremely recent times. For a very long time, major advancement in food science was on the level of better farming methods or the slow introduction of new foods (like the Columbian Exchange). Food preservation methods worldwide were pretty stagnant for centuries or even millennia and relied on a few basic methods for most of the world:

1. Drying
2. Salting
3. Pickling
4. Freezing (if you had access to snow and ice)
5. Fermentation

Food science and nutrition, likewise, didn't really grasp beyond some easily observable results (like "Maybe we shouldn't eat nothing but bread to stay alive" or "Hm, our slaves do better when they eat more vegetables instead of just scraps of pork and fat") until the mid and late 19th century when scientists like Louis Pasteur conclusively proved that sterilization could stymie food contamination and bacterial growth (as opposed to the old belief in germs spontaneously appearing out of nowhere). Pasteurization and other food preservation methods allowed for longer lasting foods, and the 20th century development of mechanical and chemical-based refrigeration allowed fresh foods to be easily kept in virtually any climate. But before then, you were stuck with a handful of types of meals.


(http://www.lore-and-saga.co.uk/)

To start with, Ancient Roman soldiers carried cooking equipment with them and were expected to make their own meals. That golden saucepan-looking thing is a patera, which acted as a combination drinking vessel, frying pan, and food bowl. Bread could be baked at forts in dome-shaped ovens and both regular loaves of bread and bucellatum (a hard cracker) were carried in general rations; every soldier was given a ration of about 830 grams (1.8 pounds) of unmilled wheat per day for grinding and cooking themselves. Other than that, the actual ingredients were a free for all. Salted and dried meat was always a thing, just like it was back home. Sausages were a common method of meat preservation and making use of trimmings in Rome, so you could expect to see those show up in the mess. Beef was uncommon, as cattle were prized as draft animals and usually only older or injured ones would be slaughtered for food. Historically milk didn't keep well until the creation of pasteurization and common refrigeration, so dairy products would have been hard cheese. Handheld querns (carried on mules, preferably) could be used to grind up grain at camp for baking into crude flatbread or porridge, but it was fully possible to just boil and eat the grain if you were lazy or too busy. Soldiers hunted, fished, farmed, and occasionally pillaged the locals to add whatever was available in the immediate area. Live animals like a herd of cattle could be brought along with a legion, as they provided other resources (like hide and bone) when slaughtered. Wine was the preferred beverage in Rome, but expensive wines were obviously not going to end up in the hands of regular troops. You'd be more likely to find posca, made by mixing low quality or sour wine (or even wine that's turned to vinegar) with water, herbs, and possibly honey. Posca was the common drink of the poor in Rome anyway and it kept discipline to give soldiers crappy watered-down wine (or "wine") instead of something high in alcohol. It also had the benefit of preventing scurvy by providing Vitamin C, a disease that plagued soldiers for a very long time due to lack of knowledge of nutrition.

Actual recipes of the poor and soldiers in Rome aren't known to nearly as high a degree as the recipes of the rich. Who would bother writing down what a farmer ate? Nonetheless, some information is known about what soldiers cooked for themselves. Porridge made from barley, emmer, wheat, or spelt would be the simplest dish and modified with meat like bacon, whatever herbs and spices soldiers could get their hands on, olive oil, and vegetables (including what was foraged or pillaged by the legion). Meat preparation in this period (after washing the salt off) was typically either roasting on a spit, boiling, grilling, or browning in a frying pan. Since rations weren't specially prepared and packaged for soldiers, it was "anything goes" for how you wanted to cook. Toss some bacon in a pan with carrots and sprinkle herbs over the top? Probably done! Boil ground pork with some olive oil to top your gruel with? Go right ahead! The only limitation is your imagination...and, you know, having the ingredients. This could be helped by the longstanding tradition of sutlers, merchants who would follow the army and sell privately to soldiers.

This is kinda how military rations went for most of the past millennium. Soldiers were assigned grain products, meat, cheese, whatever fruit and vegetables was actually available, and the local alcoholic beverage (contrary to common belief, plain water was still drank). Soldiers often had the responsibility of cooking their own food, sometimes beginning with slaughtering the animal it came from. Here we enter the realm of American rations, as a lot of easily available literature covers how they evolved and it mirrors what happened in Europe.

The United States first standardized a garrison ration in the early years of its existence, during and shortly after the Revolutionary War. This ration consisted of:

* Salt beef, salt pork, or salt fish
* Beans, peas, or some other vegetable equivalent
* Bread or flour
* Milk or cheese
* Rice or cornmeal (still called "Indian meal" then)
* Beer, spruce beer, or cider

Soldiers were still preparing their own food and animals were still accompanying the troops, but there was now some idea of what they should nominally be fed. One major flaw was a real lack of fresh food; almost everything was either preserved or shelf stable (like plain grain or flour). This did nothing to keep the soldiers from getting sick or malnourished, and supply lines and food storage methods were still too primitive to reliably get the best stuff to the boys in blue. It wouldn't be until the American Civil War that things really changed, as the country was firmly in the throes of the Industrial Revolution and the Union could more reliably provide a specific ration:

Per Soldier

* 20 oz. of fresh beef, salt beef, or salt pork
* 12 oz. of hardtack in camp or garrison or 16 oz. of hard bread at sea, on campaign, or on the march
* 1 oz. compressed cube of desiccated mixed vegetables or a 1.5 oz. compressed cube of desiccated potatoes if supplemental foods were unavailable

Per 100 rations

* 8 qts of beans or peas
* 10 lbs of rice or hominy
* 10 lbs of green coffee beans or 8 lbs of roasted coffee beans
* 10 lbs of sugar
* 2 qts of salt
* 1 gallon of vinegar

At least, this is what they were supposed to get. In practice, supply line problems meant that soldiers often went without something or had substitutes. You'll also notice that I specified "the Union" up there. The Confederate economic situation is a way bigger topic, but suffice to say they were in a really lovely economic position from start to finish and their troops struggled to get everything they needed. It wasn't unknown for Union and Confederate soldiers to privately trade Northern coffee for Southern tobacco, as the Confederates often had to make substitute coffee from roasted chicory root or acorns. Another major difference was the greater presence of peanuts in Southern rations, which were locally grown.

The frontier foods eaten by soldiers in the Indian Wars on the plains to the west were basically the same. Monotonous and bad tasting, but now supplemented by native-style trail rations like pemmican or jerky (often bison). Pemmican is sort of like a processed form of jerky, made by shredding the dried meat, pounding it into powder, and mixing it with rendered fat and optionally some berries and rolling it into balls or bars. An almost identical diet (with the inclusion of canned food) continued into the Spanish-American War, where food spoilage or outright lack of food was estimated to kill 14 soldiers for every one killed in battle. Serious changes were necessary, but the US military ended up in a much more openly neutral stance leading up to the Great War and didn't really make any huge changes. It even downsized to less than 100,000 active duty soldiers as of 1914. The sudden entry into World War I finally gave everyone the kick in the rear end needed to improve.



Since 1907, the US Army already had the Iron Ration. This was the emergency personal ration carried by every soldier to provide a day of food. It consisted of three 3 oz. cakes made by mixing wheat with beef bouillon powder, three 1 oz. bars of chocolate, and some salt and pepper all in a sealed tin packet. Upon America's entry into the war, the Trench Ration was introduced. This was nothing but canned foods sealed in canvas-covered tin box. As you can expect it was bulky and heavy to cart around and the soldiers (as they often did until recently) grew tired of the monotony. The Reserve Ration was introduced the same year, first as a supplemental and then replacement (in 1922) of the Iron Ration. The Reserve Ration set the tone for most of the 20th century: canned meat and bread, coffee with sugar, salt, and some loose tobacco (later, commercial cigarettes). This ration continued to evolve, with items being removed or added, until 1938.

World War II brought the famous letter system for rations:

* A-rations are freshly made food at the base mess hall, basically identical to home cooking or restaurant kitchen stuff.
* B-rations are prepared meals made in field kitchens with shelf stable preserved foods (canned, dried, or otherwise requiring no refrigeration)
* C-rations are individual ready-to-eat canned meals carried by soldiers.



C-rations were the proverbial bread and butter of World War II soldiers, as they were eaten any time they were away from base without a field kitchen. C-rations may get mocked, but they were revolutionary compared to other nations. Most of the rest of the world was still following the same standard from the 19th century or even earlier, with soldiers simply being assigned a certain amount of particular foods and having it tossed at them. The Japanese gain extra inconvenience points for actually making soldiers cook their own food in their mess kits on a regular basis, rather than just away from base, and outright expecting soldiers to forage, fish, hunt, and steal from the locals to supplement what they got. The Germans and Soviets both suffered massive supply difficulties when each had the upper hand, to the point where German soldiers at the Battle of the Bulge were struggling just to get basic amounts of canned pork and hard bread to avoid hunger pangs.

On the other hand, the American love of standardization and excellent industrial and logistics capability allowed them to provide plenty of mass produced food. C-rations were divided into a handful of specific menus with a unique combination of meat item, bread, dessert, and supplementals like candy and coffee. Field kitchens were so common that the American mess kit resembles a folding, round lunch tray only really suitable for having food ladled into it (whereas the German mess kit that almost everyone in Europe and Japan copied was a small pot with a lid that served as a small frying pan and eating bowl). Everyone got standardized meals at all times, with little need to forage around or try to bayonet a trout.

There were a few other rations, like 5-in-1 and 10-in-1 group feeding rations, and some experimental designs like the Assault Lunch (a bunch of candy and snacks for high calorie feeding on short notice) and the Type X (a secretive experimental ration for commando operations and invasions), but the most famous are D-rations and K-rations.



D-rations were developed by Hershey as a high-calorie emergency food bar for soldiers and pilots. The ingredients are easily available and the recipe publicly available, so feel free to make your own. The requirements unfortunately specified a bland taste to prevent the 600 calorie bar from being casually eaten as a snack, and Hershey erred too far on the side of unpalatability and created something so bitter that most soldiers hated it. The recipe also created an incredibly thick paste that became tooth-breakingly hard after cooling in the molds. As you can see on the wrapper, it was advised that you eat it slowly over a long period of time or melt it into a hot chocolate drink instead of just trying to shove the whole thing in your face.



K-rations are one of the few total flops in ration design. They were designed for commandos and paratroopers to provide a very light, compact, and nutritionally balanced meal. They had lightweight components like candy, D-ration bars (or regular chocolate bars), bouillon cubes, canned meat (including Spam!), and dextrose or malted milk tablets. Unfortunately, the rations were tested in the United States in very easy and relaxing marching conditions and declared good to go before being sent to soldiers living and fighting constantly in the jungle. The K-rations didn't provide nearly as much caloric content or nutrients as the soldiers actually needed, and the soldiers in nations like Burma who ended up living on them for extended periods of time suffered from malnutrition and major weight loss.

The Vietnam War saw minor changes, so minor that the new Meal, Combat, Individual rations were still called C-rations by the soldiers.



MCI rations were practically the same as the old C-rations, just with more menu variety and components. Like the C-ration, they were derided as monotonous and bad tasting. The military partnered with, of all companies, the McIlheny Company that makes Tabasco Sauce to send copies of the Charlie Ration Cookbook to Vietnam. The book came with a miniature bottle of Tabasco and had recipes that could be made using just Tabasco and C-ration components. They also included optional ingredients like flour, cooking oil, and new meats like chicken that the soldiers were expected (with the aid of racist caricatures in the book) to pilfer from the locals if given the opportunity. War never changes, I guess.

MCIs lasted up until the 1980s officially (no clue when the last stocks were sold or eaten, though). The Meal, Ready-to-Eat was introduced as special issue in 1982 and standard issue in 1986 as a replacement for the canned diet.



The early MREs were mostly different from MCIs in how they were packaged and had a fairly similar set of menus. The major difference was that flexible pouches replaced cans and everything was compacted to easily fit in a tear-open bag. Unlike many foreign rations which are packaged for 24 hours, an MRE is a single meal. If you're living off of them, 3 per day is what you'll likely need if you're engaged in high activity. In practice, the military continues to feed from kitchens when not out in the field working or fighting. The Tailored Operational Training Meal (TOTM) is a slightly cheaper variant of the MRE that acts as a sort of sack lunch substitute while on base, and they're sold for low prices to anyone with access to the Exchange stores in the same way that you'd buy microwave meals around here. Since the 90s, every ration has also included a Flameless Ration Heater that reacts with water to heat up the pouches placed inside.

These aren't the only rations in American use, despite the prominence of the MRE. The Meal, Cold Weather and Long Range Patrol ration are nearly identical lightweight rations with freeze-dried entrees (think Mountain House). They're meant for use in extremely cold or hot weather where normal MRE components and cooking methods are unsuitable, or for special forces units that require very lightweight food.



The First Strike Ration is the same concept as the canceled WW2 Assault Lunch. It consists of ready-to-eat foods that require no cooking (such as Bridgford pocket sandwiches, Starkist tuna pouches, candy, and nuts) for those action-packed days when you can't really sit down and eat with a spoon or try to cook anything.


New developments are still ongoing. The most noticeable is that MRE menus evolve every year; new menus are brought in and old or unpopular ones are taken out. Whereas the C-rations and MCI rations had a generic Midwest American diet, MREs are always incorporating new ethnic cuisines like Mexican, Indian, and Chinese and the various regional American cuisines to appeal to a wider variety of soldiers. Experiments are being conducted with waterless ration heaters, which merely require exposure to air to spontaneously heat. The most promising and infamous development is likely MRE pizza, which is expected to hit the bags in 2017. It's surprisingly hard to actually make shelf stable pizza.

HEY GUNS posted:

you can eat carrots in whatever period you want but pre-17th c they have to be purple, the orange ones are modern

wdarkk posted:

Link?

Nuclear War posted:

Re field kitchens: a few years ago I wandered bleary eyed and exhausted over to a UK reservist unit on exercise with my own unit and there was a fat guy in a wifebeater within the cordon cooking bacon like I'd wandered into some weird pub. Since then I've always just assumed thats how it works in the British army.

sullat posted:

Do US troops still have to wait for contractors to show up before they can get hot food?

bewbies posted:

This...hasn't ever been the case? Most company/battery/troop size units have a couple of cooks and a mobile kitchen. They actually make some pretty good stuff.

bewbies posted:

This...hasn't ever been the case? Most company/battery/troop size units have a couple of cooks and a mobile kitchen. They actually make some pretty good stuff.

Agean90 posted:

just watched florida man eat a chunk of beef that's older than the Titanic, thanks thread!

Agean90 posted:

just watched florida man eat a chunk of beef that's older than the Titanic, thanks thread!

chitoryu12 posted:

I have a thread on MREs and other military food and beverages here. My post on the history of rations: