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guts and bolts posted:w/r/t the 2.0 Core Set: That Luke squad isn't bad. I'd run the three generics together and flank with Luke. If they turn into Luke, run and let the 3 babies eat their lunch. If they turn into the generics, no one runs. Luke falls in behind and the 3 X-Wings joust. It looks solid, if not especially original. However, that Vader squad is awful. No bid, no FCS on Vader, three TIEs that are (kinda) hard to kill but don't do much damage...it's just sad. Iden is great against a small number of big hits (like torps), but still just melts against mass incoming fire. Barrage rocket bombers would be a FAR more efficient use of points than the three TIEs, IMO. Jonus and two Scimitars with Barrage. Then you'd have a bid. Maybe put a seismic on something? Also, I kinda wish I knew what kind of stuff was being played around your neck of the woods that makes you so incredibly hyped about Super Luke. We have a guy locally who has been flying X-Wings for years, took T-65s that weren't Biggs to multiple top cuts in Regionals and even Nationals once even as late as wave 12ish, and he's moved away from Supernatural Luke to Heightened Perception Luke just to ensure his boy gets the opportunity to shoot a few times. In my experience, Luke is amazing against 2-die attacks and can win against any 2-3 ships that move after him. But if he runs into a squad of heavy hitters, or if something moves after him, he just dies, taking his 80-100 points with him.
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Sep 23, 2018 01:41
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I'm thinking this as a first list to try out 2.0 with. Probably not the best, but my locale isn't exactly cutthroat. The Afterburners are mostly there as points fill. Not sure how much I'll actually end up utilizing them. Luke Skywalker (62) Supernatural Reflexes (12) R4 Astromech (2) Afterburners (8) Servomotor S-Foils (0) Wedge Antilles (52) Outmaneuver (6) R4 Astromech (2) Servomotor S-Foils (0) "Dutch" Vander (42) Expert Handling (2) Proton Torpedoes (9) R4 Astromech (2) Total: 199
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Sep 23, 2018 02:04
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Put the Afterburners on Wedge instead. You can't double-up on boosts with Luke, but Wedge with Afterburners is loving mean.
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Sep 23, 2018 02:06
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Out maneuver on Wedge is such a trap. It's a win-more choice: if you're in a position to get use out of it, you're probably already in the lead. If you're not in the lead, you don't get much at all.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:13
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Strobe posted:There are still a limited number of places for Luke to end up, and the split nature of his repositions being one before and one after his maneuver actually cuts that number by a lot. I have yet to experience difficulty getting Luke in 1-3 arcs on any given turn where I'm actually trying to do that specifically to him. I mean, objectively, no. He has more options, because Luke cannot double reposition without either SR or Afterburners. One arc on Luke is fine, because he trades fire better than almost anything. If you're regularly getting multiple arcs on Luke and the other player isn't punishing you for it by dogpiling you right back, they're just bad.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:16
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The Gate posted:I mean, objectively, no. He has more options, because Luke cannot double reposition without either SR or Afterburners. One arc on Luke is fine, because he trades fire better than almost anything. If you're regularly getting multiple arcs on Luke and the other player isn't punishing you for it by dogpiling you right back, they're just bad. Both games it happened in so far I saved Luke for last; cleaning up ~120 points of list with 200 points of list didn't take very long, and at the end of both games I still had three ships. I'm not approaching this from the direction of "Supernatural Reflexes on Luke is bad", I'm approaching it from the direction of "Supernatural Reflexes isn't as loving good as Guts seems to think" which is getting tiresome.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:21
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canyoneer posted:And in case you were wondering how the coin storage boxes work for dials, this is how. Quoting from a few pages back. What size are these boxes and where can I find them?
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Sep 23, 2018 03:24
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Has anyone here played against 5 bombers yet?
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Sep 23, 2018 03:24
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Raged posted:Has anyone here played against 5 bombers yet? I have. You will never win a joust with them with anything EXCEPT that Luke/Hera list I posted earlier on the page. That list will wipe Jonus off the map before he shoots, Hera will take 6-8 damage, then they'll kill ANOTHER one before it shoots, and so on. Hera dies, then Luke cleans up the last two. Final score: 200-104ish. Every time. However, that 5x bombers is SUPER vulnerable to old-school arc dodgers. Whisper/Duchess or Soontir/Support Ship has made pretty quick work of it for me.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:27
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Strobe posted:Haven't flown against her yet. My immediate response to the threat of her ability is to ignore it, because it's one charge and she doesn't get it back. It might hurt, but Proton Torpedoes come with two charges now and using one that doesn't hit isn't the end of the world. Even with that in mind, I'm not going to let one pilot that might show up in a TIE fighter stop me from running a good combo. Supernatural Reflexes Luke combines the complete inability to be blocked with double reposition options at i5. If you think X-Wings are good, I'm curious as to how Luke would be unimpressive, considering he is to X-Wings what a Lambo is to Fiat. I respect your opinion, it just surprises me. My main point of contention is how your ships survive the first exchange. Unless you have outflown the swarm so badly as to be comedy, in which case list building is irrelevant, Iden straight up erasing one of your ordnance shots is absolutely a potential game-losing scenario. I don't feel like it's impossible, but I feel like it is incredibly dangerous and hard to pull off a gameplan in which you get to shoot multiple ordnance attacks at a Howl+Iden swarm and they aren't eating at least one (probably more) ship in the exchange, because your first shot effectively doesn't count at all. I'm using a lot of words to get my point across, so I'll cut to the chase - it feels like any Rebel 3-ship list that doesn't include an arc-dodger par excellence is putting its fate in the hands of the variance gods. Definitely don't let me talk you out of a list you're winning with, though. Floppychop posted:I'm thinking this as a first list to try out 2.0 with. Probably not the best, but my locale isn't exactly cutthroat. The Afterburners are mostly there as points fill. Not sure how much I'll actually end up utilizing them. If you want a "cut-throat" critique, here it is:
ConfusedUs posted:Also, I kinda wish I knew what kind of stuff was being played around your neck of the woods that makes you so incredibly hyped about Super Luke. We have a guy locally who has been flying X-Wings for years, took T-65s that weren't Biggs to multiple top cuts in Regionals and even Nationals once even as late as wave 12ish, and he's moved away from Supernatural Luke to Heightened Perception Luke just to ensure his boy gets the opportunity to shoot a few times. Super Luke in the right hands is straight up unhittable by a large number of ships because of his i5 and the Force upgrade. Even if you bring 4+ ships to shoot at him, he is egregiously difficult to kill, and the resource he uses to remain hard to kill is refreshed whenever you try to kill him. I get that this sounds kind of master-of-the-obvious, and I'm not trying to be smug; it's just what he does. I've used Luke/Wedge/Norra in about 30ish "real" games so far and a bunch of online nonsense, and the number of times in the game ends where he has been effectively undamaged is high. He cannot be blocked, and the different locations he might end up after doing two re-positions is nightmarish. The only price he has to pay to do all this is to remember to manage his foils, and alternate turns in which his shot is weaker, owing to the wording of Supernatural Reflexes and Servomotor S-Foils. Keeping him in arc is difficult to manage for most ships in the game, and is outright impossible for several unless the pilot behind the wheels sells out hard to make it happen, which is where his wingmen come into play. If you sell out to trap Luke, you now have to contend with either Norra and another ace or 3 X-Wings that likely have primo angles of attack on your forces. Against 2-dice attacks, Luke is mathematically as close as you can get to "invincible" without actually being invincible. In 2E games (without conversion kits) he is probably the best ship in the game. In Extended games he is... still probably one of the best ships in the game? I don't like speaking in such broad terms, but for what you get versus how much you paid for it, he is excellent. If your problem with Supernatural Luke is that he isn't getting shots off, then I think that's just a question of practicing more with Super Luke. Especially on the first pass, and any ensuing turn where his foils are closed to begin Planning phase, it is extremely difficult to deal with him. Natural predators to Super Luke are arc-dodger i5s (if they win bid) or i6 ships with good dials, and in 2E the list of ships that do that effectively enough to scare Luke and shoot hard enough to worry him is short. What's more, he doesn't need anything other than Supernatural Reflexes to become insanely powerful, and his offensive output is very high. To put it in the plainest possible terms, Luke is highly maneuverable without having to pay for it with stress, and doesn't ever need to take Focus actions owing to his innate Force tokens, so his re-position options are always on the table. The opponent has to respect what he can do at all times, and if you don't have an initiative over him in some way, it quickly becomes extremely difficult to actually shoot at him at all, and then when you do shoot at him it isn't very good. If you roll 4 reds at him and you have a Focus, and he has his Force to spend, you can expect to get an average of 1.773 hits. With three reds and a Focus you get an average number of hits perilously close to 1. Shooting him with a 3-dice primary at range 3 when you have a Focus does an average of a half-a-hit. If you have a 2-dice attack and a Focus, you get an expected no. of hits of .2. And the number of times you shoot at him is essentially irrelevant, because he he keeps regenerating Force when you decide to shoot at him again. When you say a "squad of heavy hitters" is shooting at Luke, you seem to be implying multiple 4 dice or more attacks on the same round of shooting, which in my experience straight up does not happen unless you are either brand new at X-Wing or something has gone horribly awry. Side note: the Vader and 3 named TIE Fighters list is a purely 2E-only list. In Extended it would get eaten alive, and even in 2E it isn't spectacular. The most common archetypes I see being played are Scum jank 4-ships, six named TIEs, a full 8 TIE swarm (THE OCHO!!), Supernatural Rebel/Empire ace + stuff, and crew + aces archetypes in both Rebels and Empire. Super Luke + 3x X-Wings poses problems for all of those lists, especially if your goal becomes "reduce the board state to Luke Skywalker against 2 or fewer ships that are below him in initiative." If Super Luke gets to that point, the rest of the game is basically a formality. Strobe posted:Both games it happened in so far I saved Luke for last; cleaning up ~120 points of list with 200 points of list didn't take very long, and at the end of both games I still had three ships. I'm sorry to say this, but you're (probably!) just kinda wrong. In the example you just mentioned, you had all 200 points to shoot down 74 points of Luke Skywalker. Any scenario in which you don't lose even half of a single ship and reduce someone else's list to just 1 ship is a game you were going to win regardless of what lists were brought, because of the massive skill disparity between players. And it isn't just Luke that poses this problem - Supernatural Reflexes Vader is essentially not ever going to be in an arc of your three-ship AEE list, and Supernatural Reflexes Inquisitor is also going to probably eat that up. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 03:52
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Repositions don't magically make a ship unhittable, you know. Even against a skilled player, it's entirely possible to arrange multiple shots to cover a wide area that an X-wing - even one with multiple repositions - can't escape. Luke now is significantly more predictable than Soontir ever was, and flying against Soontir and other high PS arc-dodgers in 1.0 wasn't a matter of getting arcs on target, it was a matter of if you did manage to get arcs on target a token'd up ace with Palpatine was nigh unhittable. Luke is not. guts and bolts posted:I'm sorry to say this, but you're (probably!) just kinda wrong. In the example you just mentioned, you had all 200 points to shoot down 74 points of Luke Skywalker. Any scenario in which you don't lose even half of a single ship and reduce someone else's list to just 1 ship is a game you were going to win regardless of what lists were brought, because of the massive skill disparity between players. And it isn't just Luke that poses this problem - Supernatural Reflexes Vader is essentially not ever going to be in an arc of your three-ship AEE list, and Supernatural Reflexes Inquisitor is also going to probably eat that up. Sorry you're bad at playing to higher initiative?  It really, really is not nearly as difficult as you seem to think it is.
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Sep 23, 2018 04:10
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Strobe posted:Repositions don't magically make a ship unhittable, you know. Even against a skilled player, it's entirely possible to arrange multiple shots to cover a wide area that an X-wing - even one with multiple repositions - can't escape. Actually, if you are losing the initiative war against Super Luke/Vader/Quiz, it is functionally impossible to guess precisely where he's going. If Luke dials in a 3-speed straight, the total number of final positions he could be at is cartoonishly large. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. It is especially easy for the Supernatural Reflexes player to manage if you have to move before he does, where he can safely gauge if he wants to boost away from you and hit the gas, or boost toward you, or if you tried to block him he barrel rolls, etc. Luke is not predictable unless the people you are playing against are comically bad at X-Wing. If you are routinely winning 200-0 with your AEE list, including against Supernatural Reflexes aces, the quality of your opposition is extremely poor, and it is warping your view of the game. Flying against Soontir Fel was and absolutely still is a matter of keeping him in arc for meaningful shots, because that's the hardest part; what's more, Super Luke survives any shots at a substantially higher clip now. Use a movement simulator, or TTS, or Fly Casual, and see how you can dial in all the different places for a Supernatural ace to go (and Luke has the worst dial of the three most common variants!). Use the math calculator yourself if you don't believe me. Your ad hominem notwithstanding, please don't let your dislike of my verbosity somehow lead you to incredibly erratic/inconsistent conclusions about the game, because it will probably wind up with you having way less fun.
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Sep 23, 2018 04:17
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guts and bolts posted:Actually, if you are losing the initiative war against Super Luke/Vader/Quiz, it is functionally impossible to guess precisely where he's going. If Luke dials in a 3-speed straight, the total number of final positions he could be at is cartoonishly large. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. It is especially easy for the Supernatural Reflexes player to manage if you have to move before he does, where he can safely gauge if he wants to boost away from you and hit the gas, or boost toward you, or if you tried to block him he barrel rolls, etc. You're confusing predictable with... I'm sure there's a single word that encompasses the concept of having multitudinous options but I'm coming up blank on it right now. Predicting a move frequently has very little to do with where a unit could technically end up, and has significantly more to do with what's going on in the game state to inform a given maneuver. The real maneuver and actions that are going to end up happening are ones designed to have at least one enemy in arc, and to minimize return fire from the positions you gauge most likely (believe it or not, being condescending here is not my goal, but laying out the thought process is important). Even with Supernatural Reflexes the number of maneuver/reposition permutations that tend to fill those criteria against a well-flown opponent is going to be five or six, tops. Setting bait, especially with lower initiative pilots in order to incentivize a particular maneuver, or leaving gaps in a formation, or even ending up in a position where a white/blue maneuver won't get you in arc but a red maneuver will, will edge any player - even a good one - toward a significantly smaller set of possibilities. Forcing a full-on disengage from Luke in order to avoid said multiple arcs is honestly a win in and of itself. The odds of every single one of those possibilities being wholly out of arc of multiple or all ships is not nearly as high as you think. Planning maneuvers to cover contingencies with overlapping arcs and high overall coverage is not nearly as difficult as you seem to think it is. Or maybe I'm biased and find it easy, who knows?
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Sep 23, 2018 04:39
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Floppychop posted:Quoting from a few pages back. They're on Amazon. X-large Double Row Coin Holder Storage Box for 1oz Silver Eagle, 1oz Silver & Copper Rounds, and Silver Dollar Coins in Ring Type "I" Capsules https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RDL6NWS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_eXWPBbB7VWMDF
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Sep 23, 2018 04:45
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You fight Super Luke just like you fought AdvSensors Kylo in first edition. If you can't move after him (which makes it super easy), you have to hit him from multiple angles, chase him into a corner, or just cover a wide net with your arcs. The ease of doing that depends on how good both players are. Most ace players will bail rather than take a bad fight; the trick is not to overextend and give them a chance to escape the dragnet. Strobe's pretty good at boxing in aces with lower-PS ships. He may well be having a relatively easy time. However, going back to moving last: I think we're going to see our deepest bids targeting the initiative 5 slot rather than 6. Sure there are some I6 ships out there that care about moving last, but only a couple are actually good. Vader is in a class of his own, then there is Soontir and scum Fenn Rau, then..uh..yeah. Just them. The other I6s care far less about moving last. It's nice, sure, but hardly required. Compare that to the I5 slot where there are at least half a dozen very strong contenders who very, very, VERY much want to move last. Guri for Scum. Whisper, AdvSens Rexler, and Duchess for Imperial. Luke, Corran, and Hera of all drat things for Rebels. All of those ships live or die by moving last. (Although in Hera's case it's more about making sure her bigass gun is pointed in someone's face rather than trying to avoid incoming fire.)
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Sep 23, 2018 04:57
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It is definitely worth mentioning that during the entire lifetime of 1.0 when I wasn't flying PS 9/10/10 X-wings with no repositions and no bid I was flying T-70s and a Falcon all at PS3. Those were literally the only things I flew for years. I am as unimpressed by Supernatural Luke now as I was by Soontir or Whisper (admittedly post-Phantom nerf) in 1.0. They're good ships. They're not so good they have no good counterplay.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:02
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Strobe posted:They're not so good they have no good counterplay. I think this is the point I'm trying to make. Super Luke is good. There's a reason that, fully-kitted, he costs upwards of 90 points. But there are ways to handle him.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:05
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Strobe posted:You're confusing predictable with... I'm sure there's a single word that encompasses the concept of having multitudinous options but I'm coming up blank on it right now. Predicting a move frequently has very little to do with where a unit could technically end up, and has significantly more to do with what's going on in the game state to inform a given maneuver. The real maneuver and actions that are going to end up happening are ones designed to have at least one enemy in arc, and to minimize return fire from the positions you gauge most likely (believe it or not, being condescending here is not my goal, but laying out the thought process is important). So I agree with some of what your premise is - that you are trying to anticipate maneuvering that will result in a minimum number of arcs shooting at a ship, and maximizing the number of ships that are eligible to be shot - but that isn't actually true. If, after the first turn, I can see that you are "selling out" (flying slow or conservatively to maximize the coverage of multiple firing arcs to make life hard for an arc-dodger), I have absolutely no incentive to maximize my own number of shots on that ship at all. His mission goal becomes simple: run away, and do not die. If you make your decisions for Planning based on the expectation that my Super Luke is going to try to shoot you back, there is a real possibility that he will not try that, and in attempting to maximize your shot coverages you really just gave your flank away to the rest of my list. More to the point, at i5, Luke gets to actually see what you are doing first and react to that information in a way that non-Super aces just can't do - his pre-maneuver re-positioning is a huge strength here, because it makes him immune to being blocked, and it allows him to get the most versatility out of his mediocre dial. In short, I don't have to decide if I want to shoot back or run away until after I have seen what you did. I didn't have to do it in Planning. Like, at all. And now it's my turn to admit I probably sound patronizing here, but I promise I'm not trying to be. I'm struggling to understand what your arguments actually are. It appears to be "arc dodgers are not actually hard to shoot," and that "re-positioning pre-maneuver is not that good," which fly in the face of every game of X-Wing I've ever played. Supernatural Reflexes can essentially be parsed as similar to pre-nerf Phantom decloaking, and that was so powerful it caused a small uproar and had to be patched out of the game. If you "forced a full-on disengage" from Luke, what actually happened was you had to expose yourself to the rest of his list, because 2.0 Luke does not fly with a true wingman at all. My thought process on the matter is simple and binary, which probably leaves gaps that can be pointed out, and I'd welcome them. Here is how I approach list-building with arc dodgers. How good is the ship(s) at dodging arcs, and what are the usual methods of doing so? This is why Supernatural Reflexes is so dangerous. Soontir (or various other PTL aces du jour) would have to eat stress to do his two re-positions, which meant he was actually fairly predictable in terms of what he'd dial in next turn (a 2-speed turn or a high-speed straight being the most likely candidates, depending on the circumstance). Even with that information it was often hard to block Soontir or keep him in arc unless you brought a lot of arcs or beat him in the initiative war; but tellingly it wasn't impossible, and blocking aces was one of the most dependable ways to kill them when I quit the game circa the release of the Jumpmaster 5000. Supernatural Reflexes aces cannot be blocked, pure and simple, and they do not have to eat stress to do what they're doing, which means they are free to dial in white maneuvers with impunity. The trade off is that Luke with open foils and Vader have to take damage to boost pre-maneuver (Super Quiz doesn't even have to do that), but even then, Luke can mitigate this with careful management of his foils. To sum up: Supernatural aces are high on initiative and want to win the bid or just straight up be higher on the list than everyone else is. They dodge arcs by seeing whatever everyone else has done, and then they have unparalleled flexibility in reacting to that information; they are less "dial-limited" owing to not having stress. What happens if my opponent goes all in on trying to destroy my arc-dodger(s)? This is much more subjective and usually includes some part of "well, the rest of my list stops them/makes them pay for the privilege," but what you do with the ace being dogpiled is important. Typically, most arc-dodging aces wilt under sustained pressure, and singular (minor!) mistakes cost you the game as they die too early or before the rest of your list can capitalize. Lots of people play chase-the-ace with varying degrees of success, but your opponent can always try to sell out with the maximum number of ships in their list to cover a huge radius on the board where there is nowhere for the arc-dodger to dodge to. Luke is singularly extremely well equipped to handle this problem because he just... doesn't die. If you shoot at his 6EHP with one or two ships, what happens is he's probably fine, and that's a worst-case scenario. I posted the math above - Luke shrugs off most attacks that put the fear of God into Vader or Fel, and so it's easier for him more than any other Supernatural ace to survive long enough for the cavalry to show up. What are the inherent weaknesses of my arc-dodger(s)? Every ship has a different answer, but Luke (at i5) has an innate hatred of i5 (with bid) and i6 ships with maneuverability and firepower; what's more, Luke has to eventually try to win the game instead of just not-losing, so keeping a fellow Super ace in check who beats him in the initiative war is challenging, as are interceptor-class i6 ships writ large (Fenn Rau and Soontir Fel can both present problems). What helps Luke is his survivability. If Whisper gets dogpiled when I'm playing Whisper/Fel/Sai, mistakes with how Whisper de-cloaks and making sure I guessed correctly during Planning become magnified in importance, and missteps are costly often to the point of game-changing. If Luke gets dogpiled, unless it's an extreme circumstance, he survives long enough to cover for me making those same missteps in a way that virtually every other ace just does not. tl;dr what I'm getting at is this: any player who is using Super Luke, Super Vader, or Super Quiz against a team of all i4s gets to see what you're doing and doesn't have to guess at all during Planning. Or, at the very least, their need to guess is mitigated. I just see where you drive, then drive to where you can't shoot me, because I can go basically wherever I want, because I don't even have to dial in blue maneuvers. Hell, if you do Afterburners, you have arc dodgers who get to double re-position off of red maneuvers, which if timed right is absolutely loving brutal, albeit it actually requires guessing. Super aces are extremely safe choices to add to any list, and Luke is (by virtue of his pilot ability) the safest of the safe. If you get shot once or twice, no big deal, and you can still dance around effectively enough so that anyone at i5 (losing bid) or below is turbo-hosed during Planning phase. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 05:31
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Uh, having to guess correctly what maneuver will accomplish your objectives is still something you have to do with high PS aces, you know? You get exactly one opportunity to turn 45 degrees with a boost, and you get a correction opportunity with barrel rolls for minor distance adjustments and a two-ship-length correction on arcs, but if you dial in a 2 hard left then having Supernatural Reflexes is not going to magically let you end up facing the other direction or be out side an arc that's prepared for a 2 hard plus repositions. You make it sound like Supernatural Reflexes doesn't even bother to put a dial down until I5.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:35
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Strobe posted:They're not so good they have no good counterplay. ConfusedUs posted:I think this is the point I'm trying to make. Luke Skywalker's maximum cost is 99 if you take Supernatural Reflexes, Proton Torpedoes, R2-D2, and Afterburners. Just Supernatural and he's 74. So anywhere between 74 and 99. And I agree! Supernatural Reflexes Luke Skywalker, like anything in the game, is vulnerable to being outflown - flying matters more now than it ever has, arguably, so if you're better than your opponent the chances are you will win. All of my discussions about the relative "strength" of a ship are what that ship offers you in terms of power for its cost, and for 74 points Supernatural Reflexes Luke Skywalker is incredibly good. (I also feel this way about Supernatural Reflexes Darth Vader and Supernatural Reflexes Grand Inquisitor, but they have less desirable list-mates in my eyes.) My intention was never to say "Luke Skywalker is actually invincible and ruins X-Wing," it was "If you play him correctly, Super Luke is a loving nightmare to contend with, and can actually help less-skilled players beat their opponents by virtue of how good he is in tandem with how safe he is to pick."
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Sep 23, 2018 05:35
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Strobe posted:Uh, having to guess correctly what maneuver will accomplish your objectives is still something you have to do with high PS aces, you know? You get exactly one opportunity to turn 45 degrees with a boost, and you get a correction opportunity with barrel rolls for minor distance adjustments and a two-ship-length correction on arcs, but if you dial in a 2 hard left then having Supernatural Reflexes is not going to magically let you end up facing the other direction or be out side an arc that's prepared for a 2 hard plus repositions. I don't even know how to reply to this, I don't think. If you look at a movement chart for where Super Luke/Vader/Quiz can go by dialing in a straight/bank/turn of any speed and any difficulty, I think my point is probably made. The opponent has to do way more guessing than the Super ace does, to their detriment.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:37
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guts and bolts posted:I don't even know how to reply to this, I don't think. If you look at a movement chart for where Super Luke/Vader/Quiz can go by dialing in a straight/bank/turn of any speed and any difficulty, I think my point is probably made. The opponent has to do way more guessing than the Super ace does, to their detriment. Yeah, I'd say you've made it pretty well. Strobe posted:
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Sep 23, 2018 05:39
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Supernatural Reflexes is literally pre-nerf Whisper, the upgrade. Shorter moves, but actually sightly more options thanks to boost and not just a 2-straight. I'm not going to pretend that any of the SR aces are untouchable, but saying that all you have to do is put multiple arcs on them is laughable. There's a reason that decloak was nerfed in 1e.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:53
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Strobe posted:Yeah, I'd say you've made it pretty well. Honestly, I'm at the stage where I think I just have to discount everything you say. None of it makes any sense with regards with how X-Wing is played, and is actively bad advice for newer players reading the thread. Your point seems to be "arc dodgers can't arc dodge against me, Strobe!!" and that's just so crazy-pills that I can't make sense of it. Like, earlier in the thread you literally said you destroyed 120 points of Luke (???) with 200 points of your list (????) while also saving Luke for last (?????). So you killed his whole list except Luke and didn't even lose half of one of your ships? And you only have three in the first place? And none of them are at a high enough initiative to give Luke any problems whatsoever? When I ask "How does your list with ordnance perform against Iden?" and your response is "I haven't played against her and even if I did I would ignore her ability" speaks to a crazy amount of either skill disparity between you and your local meta crowd, or total ignorance if not outright deception. I'm not trying to participate in call-out culture here, but that is an objective wrong take on things. At this point, if your counter-"argument" to the math and movement options present in a Supernatural ace (specifically, in my examples, Luke Skywalker) is "guts just doesn't know how to fight high-PS ships," I think you have comically missed the point; I also think you have comically missed the point if you think what I have been saying is that Supernatural Luke Skywalker is unbeatable, un-out-flyable, and flat-out obviates the need to even play the games because he's so God-mode. I don't really care if you want to take pot shots at me because that's irrelevant, but it bothers me that people might read what you post and think "Sure, that sounds like a good investment of my $40," and buy in when the sole evidence of how good your list is is "I (Strobe) always beat everyone with it." It also sorta bothers me that you're essentially saying that opponents I've beaten, including some people in the thread, must somehow be bad at X-Wing because they don't have your psychic powers w/r/t Supernatural aces moving after you move. It's insulting. I don't take exception to much, and I know that my being extremely verbose and overly analytical rubs people the wrong way - I own that, and I apologize if it puts people off. It does bother me that by saying Supernatural Luke is "extremely predictable" and "unimpressive" that you're basically poo poo-talking everyone I've ever beaten with that ship, especially when you seem to be winning games against people who legitimately do not know how to play X-Wing. I could be reading too much into that cavalier attitude, and I don't know how much of it is just your dislike of me and the ideas I talk about, but it's getting really old. I can't speak for the thread, but I would certainly appreciate it if you knocked it off.
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Sep 23, 2018 06:15
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ConfusedUs posted:However, going back to moving last: I think we're going to see our deepest bids targeting the initiative 5 slot rather than 6. Sure there are some I6 ships out there that care about moving last, but only a couple are actually good. Vader is in a class of his own, then there is Soontir and scum Fenn Rau, then..uh..yeah. Just them. The other I6s care far less about moving last. It's nice, sure, but hardly required. I think that's a good assessment in principle, though I think "i6s who care about moving last," even if the list is short -- those are incredibly popular ships, and they're going to crop up a lot, and if they do move last it's tough. In terms of either flavor (Vader) or meme-generation and mechanical prowess (Fel) you're likely to still see a lot of big-bid lists that are built around or include an i6. I agree 100% on the i5 point, though, and it creates a weird ripple in the meta-game. The i5s are so good and so many of them wanna move last SO BAD that the obvious counter is to just jump ahead of them to i6 and worry less about the bid - Fenn Rau and 3x Zealous Recruits, for example, is 200, but if your whole meta is 191-point lists featuring an i5 ace, it doesn't count against you as much. The bid is the most meta-dependent thing in any list, I feel, and it's why a lot of the lists I like to post have at least some measure of flexibility in what upgrades you can take or not take if you need to get to 190 or if you can go up to 198 or whatever.
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Sep 23, 2018 06:41
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You're reading a lot into this that isn't there, and misinterpreting almost as much. I'll tackle the errors in the order they appear, for my own sanity. - In the games I've played against Supernatural Reflexes Luke so far, I've saved Luke for last and focused the entire bulk of my list against the 120 points that aren't Luke first. (I really don't know how you even managed to get this part mixed up. That's not a jab, I am genuinely perplexed.) I'm not counting MOV or half-ships (what?) because scoring MOV on a ship doesn't decrease its capability at all and only affects the match-up versus Luke tangentially. - I have yet to fly a pilot above I4 in 2.0. - My response to Iden's ability is "I would probably ignore it" in the context of not refusing to play a list I wanted to play on the off chance that a particular TIE pilot is on the other side of the field, and even then the only reason I included it is that apparently her existence is what's keeping you from running an entire list archetype. She gets one charge, I can't control where it's used. With the AEE list I've been running lately, I would try to bait it out with Jake first, but I'm not going to refuse to take a good shot because it might end up not doing damage. There is no circumstance under which her ability does nothing, you can't get rid of it by shooting her first; there are similarly few circumstances under which I'm going to let the mere possibility of her ability activating (like it will do) prevent me from taking a good action. That's, uh, kinda the definition of ignoring it. - I've described some aspects of Supernatural Luke as predictable, and some aspects of him are, especially based on common player tendencies. Mostly I've been saying that he's not nearly as unpredictable as you seem to think he is, because he's not. Other than that, the only qualifier I put on that is that I think he's more predictable than Soontir ever was. "Extremely predictable" is not actually something I said at any point. You can crow about the massive number of possibilities and options, but that doesn't make 90% of those possibilities or options viable at any given moment. At any given time you'll have maybe three or four maneuvers that are worth taking even with multiple repositions. Lining up multiple arcs to cover the most likely results is not nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be. This whole tangent arose because I said I was 'unimpressed' by Supernatural Luke. That's still true. He's an expensive ace that can be outflown and accounted for. Apparently I'm pretty alright at that part? I've never had issues or even very much difficulty playing against aces with multiple repositions at a higher pilot skill. The irritating part, and the part that I've disagreed with when it comes up (like now) is the idea that Supernatural Reflexes obviates the need for planning or that it's the second coming of christ on a well flown ace. Neither of those things are true, and I think it says more about your local space than mine if I disagree.The jab about you being bad at playing to higher PS/initiative is admittedly a juvenile jab, but it underscores the point: Supernatural aces can be countered using many of the same fundamentals and planning that countered high PS aces in 1.0.
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Sep 23, 2018 06:55
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e: this was a pointless and stupid slapfighting post, my apologies.
guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 07:12
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Thinking of dropping the Lambda on the Sai/Whisper/Soontir. Alpha lists decimate the shuttle and 5 bombers take a lot of work to chew through. This is what I put together. Feel free to pick it apart and tell me what you think is wrong with it. I might drop juke on Soontir and replace it with marksmanship and have one of the bombers with seismic. Also, I want to keep the bid at 6 or more points to give Soontir and Whisper the best chance of moving last. "Whisper" (52) Juke (4) Darth Vader (14) Soontir Fel (52) Juke (4) Scimitar Squadron Pilot (28) Barrage Rockets (6) Scimitar Squadron Pilot (28) Barrage Rockets (6) Total: 194 View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0
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Sep 23, 2018 09:26
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The answer to super Luke is 'kill everything else and win on points'. But this relies on your opponent accurately reporting his points when asked, and not including his bid in his points remaining, taking him from behind to ahead and radically changing the last 10 to 15 minutes of the game. Ask me how I know. Or torpedoes and bombs.
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Sep 23, 2018 09:39
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thespaceinvader posted:The answer to super Luke is 'kill everything else and win on points'. Wasn’t the app supposed to have tournament organizing and management? Wonder if it ever will.
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Sep 23, 2018 12:19
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The Gate posted:Supernatural Reflexes is literally pre-nerf Whisper, the upgrade. Shorter moves, but actually sightly more options thanks to boost and not just a 2-straight. I'm not going to pretend that any of the SR aces are untouchable, but saying that all you have to do is put multiple arcs on them is laughable. There's a reason that decloak was nerfed in 1e. I can't speak to the other ships that can take it but SR Luke (who I haven't even gotten to fly yet!!!) doesn't have near the offensive output, cost effectiveness, or tankiness that a palp Whisper had back then. Counterplay was a lot worse. Dials and repositioning options are much better now. I was wondering what the first thing the Internet would decide Rebels had to have taken away would be, but I'm not sure if SR Luke appears outside of this thread. Edit: also it's pretty cool to see the main character of the movies in a ship the game is named after finally useful instead of no namers from books or video games 
alg fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 13:43
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TheCenturion posted:Wasn’t the app supposed to have tournament organizing and management? Wonder if it ever will. The app was supposed to have a lot of things.
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Sep 23, 2018 14:18
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Dropped into the FLGS to see they had new stuff in. Small ships are now €23 each. Conversion kits are reasonable at least. Payday is next week, so I'll consider how much I really want to buy in again then.
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Sep 23, 2018 20:56
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alg posted:I can't speak to the other ships that can take it but SR Luke (who I haven't even gotten to fly yet!!!) doesn't have near the offensive output, cost effectiveness, or tankiness that a palp Whisper had back then. Counterplay was a lot worse. Dials and repositioning options are much better now. I mean, I don't think that SR needs to be nerfed, or Luke. No one is saying that, actually? He's just a very good ship, there's nothing wrong with that. I swear this thread has a reading issue where whenever someone says something is strong, it gets taken as people saying it needs to be killed off. Luke's offense is really good too, he's definitely not lacking in that department. Targets Lock is actually very good on him thanks to high I plus his force charges. If he doesn't have to reposition after he moves he's very nasty. Nothing in 2e compares to Whisper/Palp, which we should all take as a good thing, I think. SR aces are going to be really strong though thanks to the interaction with repositions, force charges, and making Target Lock more useable. If anything needs to be changed or nerfed, it's Iden Versio, that ability is just npe all over. Negating any single hit is stupidly strong.
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Sep 23, 2018 22:59
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Raged posted:Thinking of dropping the Lambda on the Sai/Whisper/Soontir. Alpha lists decimate the shuttle and 5 bombers take a lot of work to chew through. Have you considered Redline? Throw Proton Torps, Proton Bombs, Traj Simulator, and optionally Ablative Plating on him. If you control range well, he's gonna drop a bomb right in the middle of any alpha list, and he's very unlikely to die before he shoots because he has 9hp. And when he shoots, it'll be with a fully-modded proton torp. I spent all night tonight ramming him down people's throats. He's far too dangerous to ignore and does a hell of a lot more damage than Sai ever did. Even if he dies on the first pass, he can easily inflict an equal amount of damage just by himself. Not to mention the damage dealt by your other two ships that are flanking.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:39
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ConfusedUs posted:Have you considered Redline? Throw Proton Torps, Proton Bombs, Traj Simulator, and optionally Ablative Plating on him. I'll second this. Redline is quite nasty. Another potential build I want to try but haven't yet is Torps, Advanced Sensor, Seismic. Seismics are pretty scary to a swarm, and being able to AS focus + TL before a K-turn or stall seems huge for Redline. Traj plus Proton bombs is obviously even nastier against a swarm, but he was tough to get back in the fight after a pass.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:44
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I'm pretty sure you can't linked action off of Advanced Sensors. "After you reveal your dial, you may perform 1 action. If you do, you cannot perform another action during your activation."
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Sep 24, 2018 02:47
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Strobe posted:I'm pretty sure you can't linked action off of Advanced Sensors. "Acquire a lock" is the wording on Redline, otherwise you'd also not be able to get two locks in the same turn with him.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:48
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The Gate posted:I'll second this. Redline is quite nasty. Another potential build I want to try but haven't yet is Torps, Advanced Sensor, Seismic. Seismics are pretty scary to a swarm, and being able to AS focus + TL before a K-turn or stall seems huge for Redline. Traj plus Proton bombs is obviously even nastier against a swarm, but he was tough to get back in the fight after a pass. I didn't have any trouble getting him back into the fight. If Redline survived the first pass (not a guarantee), I usually took two turns to get back into the fight. One to turn/bank and reload + lock, the next to turn or K-turn (with a boost or focus if necessary). This almost always got his gun back on a target. Strobe posted:I'm pretty sure you can't linked action off of Advanced Sensors. You can't, but Redline's ability isn't an action. You just "acquire a lock", so it totally works after your AdvSens action.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:50
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| # ? May 25, 2024 19:32 |
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So my buddy and I bought our conversion kits, and we’re a bit confused. Where the heck is Luke? Also, where are the rules? Do we seriously have to buy another core set? Also, where is the app they were touting?
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Sep 24, 2018 03:30
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