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thexerox123 posted:You're presenting a false dilemma. They could offer resettlement elsewhere. Offer resettlement to whom? The aggressors? That seems awfully paternalistic. "You guys have to go live somewhere else now, away from your holy sites, ancestral homes, environment to which you're suited, and so on. Also, we, the Federation, now have to put you into a welfare state, because otherwise we're just, what, dumping all of you in the middle of an uninhabited wilderness with no tools or supplies?" Or to the victims? "Hey, it's a shame those guys hate you so much. Now, violence never solves anything, so you guys need to take the high-road and....move away from your holy sites, ancestral homes, environment to which you're suited, and so on. Also, we, the Federation, now have to put you into a welfare state, because otherwise, we're just, what, dumping all of you in the middle of an uninhabited wilderness with no tools or supplies?" And then what happens when the aggressor Glorpians move on to the next area? Or write into their holy texts the time the demons in red and gold came down to their planet and banished them/saved their hated enemies? Or the next time the victim Glorpians go start a war of their own, secure in the knowledge that the Holy Fed-er-ation will come in their time of need and cause their enemies to disappear?
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Oct 7, 2018 18:45
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thexerox123 posted:Isn't it Kira who tries to resign in that episode with the old guy building a wood stove or whatever and Sisko says "I could get someone to fill your position... but replace you??"
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Oct 7, 2018 18:57
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:The universe as written portrays the Prime Directive as a perfectly fine idea that works fine in the vast majority of cases. No, it doesn't. It forbids the Federation from protecting people from natural disasters, for one. An untold number of indigenous peoples in Federation space have died because the Petri dish must not be disturbed, lest [totally unsupported conclusion about their culture being destroyed]. Countless others have died from preventable diseases. We know this because it's the First Law of the Federation and early in the show it was stated that it is more important than the lives of captain or crew.
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Oct 7, 2018 18:59
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Sodomy Hussein posted:No, it doesn't. It forbids the Federation from protecting people from natural disasters, for one. I'll give you that stopping a cosmic string fragment or whatever from destroying a planet that doesn't even know their doom is coming in a way they could never possibly notice seems like a hard sell. I don't know about inoculating an entire planet against space herpes or whatever, that seems like it would potentially have many more unintended consequences.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:04
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I mean a super rad thing about ds9 is that so many characters can have seriously, radically different beliefs and still be buds.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:07
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Sodomy Hussein posted:No, it doesn't. It forbids the Federation from protecting people from natural disasters, for one. An untold number of indigenous peoples in Federation space have died because the Petri dish must not be disturbed, lest [totally unsupported conclusion about their culture being destroyed]. Countless others have died from preventable diseases. We know this because it's the First Law of the Federation and early in the show it was stated that it is more important than the lives of captain or crew. Like at a certain point this becomes "they are morally obligated to provide civic services, by force if necessary."
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Oct 7, 2018 19:07
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Although I'd have liked to see more of Keiko and Kira interacting, I don't know, Keiko gets subordinated or moved offscreen too much, but she's great when she's around.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:08
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Pick posted:Although I'd have liked to see more of Keiko and Kira interacting, I don't know, Keiko gets subordinated or moved offscreen too much, but she's great when she's around. Well at best she is a civilian school teacher, botanist, or wife so she more has to be shoehorned into plots.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:21
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Nessus posted:See I think you're full of poo poo here in general but I'll completely agree with you about natural disasters to a certain extent. There are some things the Federation can trivially prevent (asteroid impacts, potentially space weather incidents) and others which seem more difficult. Should the Federation inoculate people from the skies? Does this mean they are now "spraying bioagents onto hapless people who can't even protect themselves" if there are any reactions? Again we're jumping to "SO YOU'RE JUST GOING TO gently caress WITH THEM IRRESPONSIBLY, HUH" because that is the strawman that the Prime Directive sets up. Oh I mean, yes, I'm definitely advocating chemtrails. You got me. You interact and share information with peoples to the extent they want to do the same, generally. You don't decide for them that they can't handle the responsibility of knowing about your glorious culture.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:28
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Sodomy Hussein posted:No, it doesn't. It forbids the Federation from protecting people from natural disasters, for one. An untold number of indigenous peoples in Federation space have died because the Petri dish must not be disturbed, lest [totally unsupported conclusion about their culture being destroyed]. "Do not worry, brethren, We can live on the slope of the big volcano/in the flood plains/on the island wracked by storms, for the Federation will come bail us out of any thing." quote:Countless others have died from preventable diseases. We know this because it's the First Law of the Federation and early in the show it was stated that it is more important than the lives of captain or crew. Ok, so are you advocating beaming down and telling people that you can inject them with a substance that will protect them from disease? All disease, or just some? What about other injuries? Are you preventing them from dying of disease, but not accidental injury? What about intentional injury? What if some people don't want the inoculations? What if some people object to them on completely rational grounds, like 'My mother told me not to accept injections from strangers?' What if religious leaders advise their followers that the inoculations are evil? What if the local government bans the inoculations, but only for some of it's members? Do you, in an imperialistic and colonial manner, force the ignorant natives to accept your beneficence, for their own good? Do you let the local potentate choose who lives or dies, thus causing the very genocide you were hoping to avoid? Do you advocate the US of A going into Africa, right now, and forcing vaccines onto people at gunpoint? Y'all in America can't even decide if vaccines are a good thing for your own citizens, and you're advocating forcing onto other planets?
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Oct 7, 2018 19:29
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TheCenturion posted:"Do not worry, brethren, We can live on the slope of the big volcano/in the flood plains/on the island wracked by storms, for the Federation will come bail us out of any thing." Hurr durr indigenous peoples don't know any better!!!
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Oct 7, 2018 19:32
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Nessus posted:See I think you're full of poo poo here in general but I'll completely agree with you about natural disasters to a certain extent. There are some things the Federation can trivially prevent (asteroid impacts, potentially space weather incidents) and others which seem more difficult. Should the Federation inoculate people from the skies? Does this mean they are now "spraying bioagents onto hapless people who can't even protect themselves" if there are any reactions? I feel like another aspect of the PD that isn't being discussed is that if we do indeed determine we have a moral obligation to protect all intelligent life we find from natural disasters, who's definition of "intelligence" are we using? Do we say all human-level intelligence or higher? Seems to be an arbitrary line to draw, especially if you've got an enormous spectrum of races (both humanoid and non-humanoid) in your Federation, each with a society full of people that probably themselves don't all agree on a standard definition of intelligence. On our own planet today we've got people who argue apes, dolphins, whales, and dogs are intelligent. We've got religions and philosophies that believe all life (and maybe even matter) has some form of inherent sentience and that our definition of the word is arbitrary. In a multi-world federation this debate probably doesn't get any simpler. What happens if you save some planet from an asteroid where the highest level of intelligence is akin to stone-age humans, but don't do the same where the highest level of intelligence is basically a tiger? What if one of your cat-people member species finds that to be some sort of racist hypocrisy? So then do we go around protecting all life of all levels wherever we find it? Does that mean we go around preventing every space-related mass extinction event we find, ignoring the fact that humanity itself wouldn't exist if it weren't for asteroid impacts wiping out some fairly intelligent animals that came before us? Drink-Mix Man fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 7, 2018 |
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Oct 7, 2018 19:35
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Hurr durr indigenous peoples don't know any better!!! Don't know any better than what? That they've learned that the dudes in the spaceships will swoop down and save them from natural disasters? After all, that's what you're advocating; that the Federation should never allow a natural disaster to happen. Or are you advocating, what, a one-time policy? Three strikes, you're out? One natural disaster per 500 KM radius, per generation? Or is the Federation now expected to be watching every planet it knows about, 24/7/365 (or local equivalent) and averting any and all natural disaster? And that would be unfair to planets it doesn't know about, so it drat well better be finding new planets to protect as often as possible. Now, it's time and resource consuming to be watching all those planets, so they should construct artificial habitats and move the various aliens they find there, 'for their own safety.'
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Oct 7, 2018 19:46
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Hurr durr indigenous peoples don't know any better!!! Yeah? We're talking about pre-writing societies in some cases here, not 21st century pre-warp Earth (where it would still 100% cause the worst wars we've ever seen unless they actively prevent them with force) In order for them to give informed consent you are going to have to educate them on basic biology, germ theory, epidemiology, maybe even statistics. Maybe even "consent" There isn't time if it's a real crisis. How the hell would you even do that in a bronze age or stone age world? Beam representatives into every villiage to explain to them that everything they know is wrong, but it's OK because people from space with magic will save them from something very dangerous that is about to kill them, but you can't see it unless you use one of our devices, but trust us we're the good guys. Yikes
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Oct 7, 2018 19:54
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So, I’m watching “Sub Rosa” for (I think) the first time. I had always assumed the thread title was a paraphrasing or satirical. Nope. This episode is 100% Barclay’s secret Enterprise fanfiction and nobody will ever convince me otherwise.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:57
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The Bloop posted:Well at best she is a civilian school teacher, botanist, or wife so she more has to be shoehorned into plots. Quark's a bartender.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:59
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Pick posted:Quark's a bartender. He's a community leader He's also principal cast and she isn't. I'm not on the Keiko hate wagon but I think she gets better screentime than most of the tertiary characters.
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Oct 7, 2018 20:19
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Hurr durr indigenous peoples don't know any better!!! Exactly. Read any history of the colonization of the Americas by Europe and it’s how folks in this thread sound right now. (Not everyone and I’m exaggerating slightly, but still.)
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Oct 7, 2018 20:36
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Geekboy posted:Exactly. I can't even tell what side you are taking but it's more like modern man interacting with cavemen than European colonizers in any case and even that doesn't account for the fact that we are talking about aliens from space
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Oct 7, 2018 20:48
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The notion that it's a general policy in Starfleet to not interfere is pretty reasonable--usually you'll want to send in more specialized teams later Of course the prime directive being both inviolable and the most important order seems silly
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Oct 7, 2018 21:08
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cheetah7071 posted:The notion that it's a general policy in Starfleet to not interfere is pretty reasonable--usually you'll want to send in more specialized teams later It is definitely worth making the distinction that this is Starfleet's general order 1, not The Federation's, true. Also, as noted many times so far, it isn't inviolable. Captains violate it during extenuating circumstances rarely but regularly. Not knowing the actual text makes this argument difficult, but the evidence on the screen is that apparent "violations" are sometimes condoned or even rewarded.
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Oct 7, 2018 21:17
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Again we're jumping to "SO YOU'RE JUST GOING TO gently caress WITH THEM IRRESPONSIBLY, HUH" because that is the strawman that the Prime Directive sets up. Which of course I assume you would also do. But that would also constitute a form of imposition.
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Oct 7, 2018 21:20
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Nessus posted:Which of course I assume you would also do. But that would also constitute a form of imposition. In the end there is no way around it. A lot of Federation policy sounds nice in theory but there is no middle ground between imposing yourself or watching others suffer. You can certainly "impose" yourself in a very, very gentle way but in the end you want others to share _your_ values or you wouldn't have those in the first place. I mean there is never going to be a Federation which will suddenly embrace for example the Ferengi way of life. The only alternative to cultural assimilation is isolation or conflict.
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Oct 7, 2018 21:49
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Sodomy Hussein posted:You interact and share information with peoples to the extent they want to do the same, generally. You don't decide for them that they can't handle the responsibility of knowing about your glorious culture. Where's the line, then? If it's not spacefaring civilizations, then post-industrial? Literate? Humanoid-only? You're tossing a lot of shade but you don't seem to have thought out any sort of actual alternative idea.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:01
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LinkesAuge posted:In the end there is no way around it. A lot of Federation policy sounds nice in theory but there is no middle ground between imposing yourself or watching others suffer. You can certainly "impose" yourself in a very, very gentle way but in the end you want others to share _your_ values or you wouldn't have those in the first place. I mean there is never going to be a Federation which will suddenly embrace for example the Ferengi way of life. The only alternative to cultural assimilation is isolation or conflict. You can peacefully share with the Ferengi with a way smaller power imbalance than with bronze age peasants, though. You have to make a judgement call about where the line is and the generally accepted one in-world (which we have to assume is based on much more evidence and experience than we are shown in episodes) is warp capability. I suspect if a species created iconian gates or a stable wormhole generator or something but not warp, it would be treated similarly. One thing that isn't really dealt with are pre-warp species that can no-doubt detect the existence of aliens using various observation methods and may try to reach out and communicate even if they can't come visit yet.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:04
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The Bloop posted:You can peacefully share with the Ferengi with a way smaller power imbalance than with bronze age peasants, though. You have to make a judgement call about where the line is and the generally accepted one in-world (which we have to assume is based on much more evidence and experience than we are shown in episodes) is warp capability. I suspect if a species created iconian gates or a stable wormhole generator or something but not warp, it would be treated similarly.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:13
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The Bloop posted:He's a community leader https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HogVDLzk4E0
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Oct 7, 2018 22:40
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The problem is, ANY sort of sharing would be EXPLICTLY and AUTOMATICALLY contaminating. How are you going to describe technology that a given culture has zero basis for? Probably, loan words. Here, we translated the instruction manual into your language, but half of it is English, because you have no term for 'quantum entanglement' or 'atom' or 'dilithum' or 'duotronic circuit' or 'isolinear control chip.' Like the man said, at least if somebody's already achieved warp travel, they're not basically compelled to accept the gifts from the strangers in the sky. And what are you arguing for, blind transfer? If the Federation rolls up on a culture which practices ritualized but frequent blood sacrifice, what's going to happen? "Hey, you don't need to sacrifice thousands of your people every year just to ensure a good harvest. Here's a device that makes free food just by shoveling some dirt and crap into it." You know what the response is going to be? It isn't going to be 'This is excellent! Now, we won't have the population pressure and food production issues that have led us to this draconian method of population control! Joyous day, we can release the slaves, unbond the serfs, and dedicate ourselves to lives of leisure and the arts!' No, it's going to be 'great! Now we can sacrifice EVEN MORE dudes, AND our priests will be extra-well fed! Oooh, and those duranium knives work awesome compared to these flint/obsidian/bronze/whatever ones!' I mean, there are people, right now, in the US of A, who genuinely and honestly believe that the earth is flat, that crystals can heal you, that airplanes are spraying mind control chemicals into the air, that vaccinations are, at best, a terrible idea, and at worst, a knowing consipiracy to do terrible things to their children, and that weekly school massacres are a necessary price to pay for 'muh freedoms,' and you think that if some sort of alien federation rolled up and said 'hey, want some super science?' things would work out well?
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Oct 7, 2018 22:52
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Nessus posted:So are you talking about mere knowledge of the Space Brothers or technology/medical exchange? I mean, if you have several cultural groups and some of them like the Federation and others don't - and the former get access to Federation technology - then the former will probably win out in any regional conflicts, unless you are also able to encourage them to reconcile their differences and form some kind of unified or at-the-least peaceful system. Yes, also known as what happens in Star Trek anyway.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:53
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Hot take: The Man Trap is the only first episode of TOS, The footage in The Menagerie is the only canonical footage and The Cage is completely non-canonical. Also ST:TAS > ST:VOY P.S. The Doomsday Machine is the best episode.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:55
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S04E15 First Contact - Riker, I don't think that's compliant with the Prime Directive.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:57
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TheCenturion posted:The problem is, ANY sort of sharing would be EXPLICTLY and AUTOMATICALLY contaminating. I would legit like seeing a ST show where one of the Federation's main rivals was an interstellar political power whose main objective was doing this sort of thing, complete with all the unintended consequences you described.
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Oct 7, 2018 23:02
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So what's that new Klingon look?
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Oct 8, 2018 01:34
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Arglebargle III posted:So what's that new Klingon look? pumpkin spice
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Oct 8, 2018 01:44
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Pick posted:pumpkin spice The seven Orbs of the Profits light throughout the galaxy, and only Discovery can reach them Ginger Scary Sporty Baby Posh Pumpkin Spock
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Oct 8, 2018 02:16
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They’re gonna summon shenron in the season finale
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Oct 8, 2018 02:45
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I would legit like seeing a ST show where one of the Federation's main rivals was an interstellar political power whose main objective was doing this sort of thing, complete with all the unintended consequences you described. I always thought that should be the Ferengi's thing - they're the guys who'll do business with anyone, without worrying about the consequences.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:43
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Angry Salami posted:I always thought that should be the Ferengi's thing - they're the guys who'll do business with anyone, without worrying about the consequences. I think that was the original intent before they realised no one took the Ferengi seriously at all.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:59
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Angry Salami posted:I always thought that should be the Ferengi's thing - they're the guys who'll do business with anyone, without worrying about the consequences. That's basically what Little Green Men is about!
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Oct 8, 2018 04:08
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i'm watching that episode of VOY where the Doctor creates a holodeck program of a family, and he makes an extremely white misogynistic power fantasy for.. some reason They should've leaned more into the Doctor being a loving weirdo creep
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Oct 8, 2018 06:14
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