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the petition started here in alberta so it's definitely a response to 'pray away the gay' groups and possibly whatever passes for counselling in the catholic school system. they really should give more specific examples and definitions but really stopping human rights' abuse is definitely the responsibility of the legislature, they shouldn't need it spelled out. (of course they do anyway)
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Oct 10, 2018 01:42
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BattleMaster posted:The only way banning conversion therapy could affect actual treatment is if it was maliciously crafted to do so on purpose, but I can't imagine anyone who wants to stick it to both LGBT people AND pray away the gay poo poo. Based on my reading of the ongoing Zucker controversy at CAMH this isn't really true. The politics has moved a lot faster than the scientific or clinical consensus and practices that some people think are common sense or even indispensable are viewed by others as tantamount to child abuse. Hence why I really want to know what is being targeted by people advocating a blanket prohibition on "conversion" therapy. If we can't reliably identify a confused minor from a minor with gender dysphoria then how do we determine whether their treatment options are an attempt to "convert" them?
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Oct 10, 2018 01:45
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it's not actually all that hard in many cases to tell a queer kid who is actually queer apart from a straight kid who's merely "confused" for example, if someone is outright telling you they are trans, repeatedly and definitively over a long time period, the likelihood that they might just be "confused" is very small. but for some reason, the Zuckers and Kays of the world will insist on circling back to this vanishingly small possibility, over and over and over. they're just asking questions though!!!! Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 02:05
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Forgive me if I am way off here, but my understanding of the whole Zucker CAMH thing was 1 - Dr has good success helping young trans people 2 - His priority for children is intense talk therapy to see if they are really trans or just questioning. If questioning, stay in therapy longer and see where it leads. If confirmed, continue with plans for treatments and hormones as they enter teenage years and adulthood. 3 - He believed since the studies have shown the majority young questioning people end up not identify as trans in adulthood, and that has greater health outcomes, thats the best practice if its feasible. 4 - He was fired because his preference towards restoring traditional gender if appropriate for the child is no longer politically correct, he was fired. 5 - He won his court case. He was fired because the philosophy of his treatment, although seemingly successful while he was at CAMH, had some vocal parents that thought it was non-progressive. Did I miss anything?
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Oct 10, 2018 02:05
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Yes, you missed the part where "Are they really trans or just questioning" never resulted in "really trans" until after they went through puberty and were stuck with the body of their assigned gender forever. When he could have just listened to his patients and provided them with the treatments they requested saving them the associated trauma of the wrong puberty and vastly improving their quality of life. also the part where it is the patients themselves who were complaining, not their parents on their behalf also the part where it is not "politically" incorrect what Zucker did but just plain incorrect Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 02:15
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THC posted:it's not actually all that hard in many cases to tell a queer kid who is actually queer apart from a straight kid who's merely "confused" This isn't a poo poo post. I'm being 100% truthful and earnest here. I know this is anecdotal but I'm very close to someone that spent quite some time in their adolescence, measuring years, with the firm belief that they were trans. They feel extremely thankful that they went through that part of their life before the current political climate because it really was just a phase, combined with a rejection of antiquated cultural gender roles. I also know a few others that questioned their sexual orientation and experimented with their sexuality and ya no turns out they're heterosexual after all. I fully support people embracing their non heteronormativity and believe that sexual reassignment surgery should be covered by our universal health care but I also believe that in our quest to be accepting and inclusive without question we might be causing harm.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:24
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What harm are you worried we might be causing? Please be specific.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:25
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Yay banning conversion therapy. The adverse effects of hormone therapy for transitioning people seem to be small compared to the psychological and social benefits of 'appearing' or passing as the gender they are. Trans people suffer some of the largest suicide and victim of homicide rates compared to all other demographics, anything to help make trans people feel welcome, safer, and pass the way they want to = statistical lives saved over time. Anyways you're going to have issues every time doctors try and use their 'expertise' of the human body to treat social issues like gender. They can help to a certain extent with the medical side of things, but there should be more limits to their abilities to restrict access to their services. Drake meme: Psychology (nah) Sociology/Letting people do what they want, especially if it isn't really that harmful to them and has massive benefits. (yah)
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Oct 10, 2018 02:31
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THC posted:What harm are you worried we might be causing? Please be specific. Well, anecdotally again, this person I know is very happy they weren't taken to a doctor who would have listened to his patients and provided them with the treatments they requested saving them the associated trauma of the wrong puberty and vastly improving their quality of life. Because in the end the very thing that saved them the associated trauma of the wrong puberty and vastly improving their quality of life was not being listened to when they were a child.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:32
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Evidently that person is misinformed about what that treatment would actually entail. Nobody is doing gender reassignment surgery on minors and nobody is suggesting it should be.
Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 02:36
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EvilJoven posted:Well, anecdotally again, this person I know is very happy they weren't taken to a doctor who would have listened to his patients and provided them with the treatments they requested saving them the associated trauma of the wrong puberty and vastly improving their quality of life. You know the medical treatment for a kid who's trans or questioning is puberty blockers and lots of therapy until they're around 16 right? If your anecdotal friend had continued to question into teenagehood, the worst that would happen to them is they'd start puberty a few years late, whichever one they decided to choose.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:39
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THC posted:Yes, you missed the part where "Are they really trans or just questioning" never resulted in "really trans" until after they went through puberty and were stuck with the body of their assigned gender forever. When he could have just listened to his patients and provided them with the treatments they requested saving them the associated trauma of the wrong puberty and vastly improving their quality of life. Yep. I saw Zucker for eight years, from 16-24, and he was straight up trying to convince me that a “better” outcome would be not to transition until my very last session with him. No treatment until that last session either. Call it desistance or reparative or conversion therapy. Call it whatever. He was practicing it on me, ruining me in an attempt to fit me into his mold, and he ruined my life. Five years later and I can maybe work next year because of all the trauma.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:45
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Cat Wings posted:You know the medical treatment for a kid who's trans or questioning is puberty blockers and lots of therapy until they're around 16 right? If your anecdotal friend had continued to question into teenagehood, the worst that would happen to them is they'd start puberty a few years late, whichever one they decided to choose. Yes. People were asking Zucker for puberty blockers and he wasn�t giving them. Instead he forced them to jump through endless hoops to prove they�re really, actually, definitely, for sure, 100% trans and not �just questioning� until they were growing boobs or beards and no longer had the option to delay puberty.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:47
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EvilJoven posted:Well, anecdotally again, this person I know is very happy they weren't taken to a doctor who would have listened to his patients and provided them with the treatments they requested saving them the associated trauma of the wrong puberty and vastly improving their quality of life. I'm not trying to be a dick, but the whole wrong puberty trauma thing is like a terrible specter that hangs over people's heads when they talk about this stuff. It really isn't a huge deal, as Cat Wings pointed out. The 'wrong puberty' ideas float around because it's so visceral sounding, and scary. The reality isn't like that. I only mention it like this because you're the 3rd or 4th person I've seen bring type of anxiety up, especially when almost everything about your body is malleable except when your voice deepens.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:47
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quote:Stewart Remains Ahead in Vancouver Mayoral Race Thank god it seems like Wai Young, Vancouver's Rob Ford, won't be in play to be mayor.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:53
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Toalpaz posted:I'm not trying to be a dick, but the whole wrong puberty trauma thing is like a terrible specter that hangs over people's heads when they talk about this stuff. It really isn't a huge deal, as Cat Wings pointed out. The 'wrong puberty' ideas float around because it's so visceral sounding, and scary. The reality isn't like that. I only mention it like this because you're the 3rd or 4th person I've seen bring type of anxiety up, especially when almost everything about your body is malleable except when your voice deepens. No. It is loving horrible. I am trapped in a body that I never wanted, that I fight with every day and that I am still undergoing medical treatments to correct. You may not understand that dysphoria, but trust me it is real and traumatic. And Zucker could have stopped it. He could have given me the therapy I needed to prevent my body becoming a misshapen prison. He didn’t. He saw the changes occurring, he even commented on and complimented them. He intentionally ruined me believing it was the best outcome despite my pleas otherwise every time I saw him. Do not belittle my pain.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:54
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Well, I sent this to the person I'm talking about and asked for their response and they said that quite frankly they continued to question their biological gender assignment until adulthood and aren't even 100% sure that they would have been upset with transitioning. What they do know that they're very happy with their gender now and that the current life they have now wouldn't have been possible if they'd transitioned. In the end, they don't know how to approach this in others either because while they recognize that transitioning in adulthood is way more difficult, they're worried about the long term consiquences of people making such a decision even in their teens. They're looking for an article that outlines an alternative school of thought that says that in some cases people who feel they may be trans might actually be CIS but with a strong refusal to accept traditional gender norms because it meshed a lot with their experiences growing up.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:55
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Femtosecond posted:Thank god it seems like Wai Young, Vancouver's Rob Ford, won't be in play to be mayor. She never remotely was.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:56
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Arivia posted:No. I was referring to the 'wrong puberty' of people who deny trans people what they want because they're 'concerned for them' and waiting to see, but I can understand that I wasn't specific enough. I didn't mean to belittle your pain and I'm sorry.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:58
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PT6A posted:I was thinking about this and I believe you need a mix of both photo radar and actual traffic enforcement, because they each have their strengths and weaknesses. It's hard for a cop to pull over a parade of jackasses all doing a similarly unsafe speed, whereas a photo-radar can get them all. On the other hand, photo-radar systems do nothing to address the problems you identify. Is that the one at the Western edge of the city where they get you for speeding up to the highway speed while the in city speed is in effect? I uh, might have gotten a ticket or two there. I think everyone in my family has (the parents live around there). This might say something about us. Never got one where they always plant the radar in the car to catch coming down the western stretch of Stoney who don't slow down for the 80kmh stretch right before it hits the Trans Canada, though  .
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Oct 10, 2018 03:03
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Also interesting to see that Hector and his YES party isn't getting much traction. Unfortunately given the lack of polling interest in municipal politics I don't know if we'll ever know if this was due to the public disinterest in his YIMBY ideas, or if it was because of his BC Liberal insider status and the anonymous billboards issue.
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Oct 10, 2018 03:04
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oh hey mayors debate starting https://www.facebook.com/GlobalBC/videos/351793108891102/
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Oct 10, 2018 03:12
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Hahaha Faith Goldy is trying to sue Bell for not airing her white supremacist campaign ads.
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Oct 10, 2018 03:21
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"We need a real city plan. A plan that puts people first. We need real change" THANKS HECTOR
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Oct 10, 2018 04:17
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Arcsquad12 posted:Hahaha Faith Goldy is trying to sue Bell for not airing her white supremacist campaign ads. Ford will probably try to force them to accept them, because he loves him some nazis. And if you try to call him on it he just says "you're wasting taxpayer money!". I have been really loving dispondant lately because the god drat government of Ontario clearly has it out for me and the other of millions of min wage workers who spend every day being poo poo on by people who demand amazing, perfect service but don't think we deserve to be paid for it because we should "get a real job". Some fucker being all "waaaah I bought a million dollar house in a place that million dollar houses are actually impressive and I cannot afford the property taxes so gently caress all you min wage workers" is mind boggling. Its so loving annoying because the basic part of that of being able to buy a house puts you so far ahead of us, and maybe you should have looked into your property taxes before you bought it. Maybe you can go with a cheaper car. I have to think if i'm going to have more than rice for dinner at the end and beinging of the month so I can afford to pay my bills. But nope, we have to give up even more. I know real estate in Toronto is insane. A million dollar house here where i live in Toronto Beaches is pretty average, but still, if you can afford to buy a house you are so much better off than me and everyone like me. The sad thing is I am a supervisor, so do I get more money? Lol NO! Loblaws only give more than min wage to managers, and even then its only a tiny bit, and there's only so many managers. Basically every job is min wage; I applied for a store manager position in the early summer and then straight up told me it was minimum wage. But you know, you should be happy you have a job.
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Oct 10, 2018 05:19
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Toalpaz posted:Anyways you're going to have issues every time doctors try and use their 'expertise' of the human body to treat social issues like gender. Seems like it should be a social solution then, not a medical one.
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Oct 10, 2018 05:45
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Seems like it should be a social solution then, not a medical one. Socially cisnormative and heteronormative behavior only exists to exclude and harm people for utterly unproblematic things. If you accept that people are worthwhile and should enjoy happy and good lives in society, I believe you should also consider that people generally know what makes them happy (such as being treated as the gender they are). This is especially true for trans people because being treated as who they are harms literally no one else, and is a privilege that cis people are afforded at a fundamental level. So yeah, people socially shouldn't bully trans or questioning people into suicide. People in general should accept that things in society that they think are normal are arbitrary and constructed (like gender). People should trust other people's process of questioning, and respect other people's decisions or realizations about their gender. People should accept that gender and performance is much more fluid then they think it is. People should discard biological explanations for social behavior. Medical solutions should exist and be available freely to people everywhere in Canada when the problem is dysphoria, or just trying to pass, or like a cold or something. But there shouldn't be 'medical solutions' that are actually ways funnel people out of access to resources that help them. Yeah, I just really didn't want your take away from my post to be 'we have to socially deal with trans people' in a really ominous and open ended way.
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Oct 10, 2018 06:14
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twistedmentat posted:Ford will probably try to force them to accept them, because he loves him some nazis. And if you try to call him on it he just says "you're wasting taxpayer money!". There is a large swath of people in this province that believe those of us that didn't spend 4 years in university and work retail or food service or part time for any reason are subhuman and undeserving of even the most seemingly basic dignities in life. Some of them because they've suffered themselves and feel it's only fair to pay the world back for what they've gone through by spreading their misery to others, most in my experience because they're just oblivious weasels that cruised through their lives on their families' money and connections. Either way they can go gently caress themselves and I hope they all eat loving poo poo when the real estate market finally implodes
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Oct 10, 2018 11:02
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I find hard to believe boomers who were handed prime jobs on a silver platter ever suffered themselves Anecdotal: because all those I ever hear complain also managed to buy a house on one income within 2 years of entering the workforce. Hmm...
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Oct 10, 2018 11:18
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Tighclops posted:There is a large swath of people in this province that believe those of us that didn't spend 4 years in university and work retail or food service or part time for any reason are subhuman and undeserving of even the most seemingly basic dignities in life. Some of them because they've suffered themselves and feel it's only fair to pay the world back for what they've gone through by spreading their misery to others, most in my experience because they're just oblivious weasels that cruised through their lives on their families' money and connections. Either way they can go gently caress themselves and I hope they all eat loving poo poo when the real estate market finally implodes Also it's entirely possible to have spent 4 years in university and end up working retail or food service anyway, because that's what the job market is like. Anyone who thinks that minimum wage jobs are just "starter" positions that you get when you're a teenager and you'll move on to a "real" job later probably hasn't had to actually look for work in decades.
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Oct 10, 2018 12:20
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This isn't the first time Arivia has posted about Zucker. Nobody in this thread should be falling for those articles defending that awful treatment.
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Oct 10, 2018 13:07
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Also it's entirely possible to have spent 4 years in university and end up working retail or food service anyway, because that's what the job market is like. I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum, but I graduated with a Master's in Math in 2016 with jack poo poo for work experience (I worked retail and food service in my summers which apparently doesn't count for poo poo) and uh, mostly doing pure math with barely any coding experience. Finding a decent job vaguely in my field took me almost two years. There were obviously a lot of things I could have done differently, but the process was so frustrating and dehumanising that even though this work is pretty drat boring I'm not in any hurry to repeat that process for another year or two (yes, I know the second 'career' job is easier to get. hopefully). I have a steady paycheck, a good work environment that doesn't jerk me around around and pressure me to do overtime, and benefits, and that's better than a lot of what's out there. Overeducated and underqualified, the millennial nightmare.
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Oct 10, 2018 13:20
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To the surprise of basically no one, study finds cops in Canadian schools more helpful than hurtful. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-report-shows-toronto-school-board-was-wrong-to-heed-activists-over-police-program
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Oct 10, 2018 13:39
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zapplez posted:To the surprise of basically no one, study finds cops in Canadian schools more helpful than hurtful. It's a case study. Without any controls. Oh, and AFAIK it's not published in a peer-reviewed publication. Well done!
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Oct 10, 2018 13:56
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CRISPYBABY posted:Is that the one at the Western edge of the city where they get you for speeding up to the highway speed while the in city speed is in effect? Yep, that's the one. They usually put it far enough east of the city limits and the speed zone change that you can still start accelerating before the speed limit goes up to 110, but honestly I've seen sooo many cops around there that I just hold 80 until the actual sign, and then downshift and pin it to jump to 110 right when the speed limit changes. Very little about my commute is any fun at all, I have to take enjoyment where I can, and I find it's actually more fun than gently accelerating while still in the 80 zone anyway  They also frequently put a photo radar truck on the other side, just after the speed limit drops to 90 (no, I don't know why the same stretch of highway is 80 on one side, and 90 on the other...) but anyone driving on the Trans-Canada should be very suspicious of that tactic to begin with.
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Oct 10, 2018 13:57
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EvidenceBasedQuack posted:It's a case study. Without any controls. In less rude terms, the study is not designed to reach Blatchford's conclusions (don't give her clicks guys). Based on the text it doesn't address basic variables such as student demographics. Even if there's a little over 50% ethnic minorities in Toronto, black and indigenous people don't even make 10% of its population. Guess which demographics are more unfairly targeted by the police E: "privileged groups feel safe" is not exactly an evidence-based rebuttal to SJW policies
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Oct 10, 2018 14:06
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Cops in schools is loving stupid. It will just incite more violence.
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Oct 10, 2018 14:12
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What would actually make much more sense than cops in schools are defence lawyers or other forms of legal aid available in schools. Teenagers gently caress up and do stupid poo poo, and it would be good to have a resource for students who find themselves in precarious legal situations to advise them to, ideally, stop whatever they're doing, but to also provide solid, confidential advice on how best to handle any situations that are already in progress.
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Oct 10, 2018 14:21
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Speaking of people who don't need more clicks, Tarek Fatah has a problem with racists being barred from a Muslim conferencequote:Laura Loomer is no shrinking violet. Whether it is shaming Democratic congressman Keith Ellison who has recently come out denying allegations of domestic abuse, or disrupting a congressional hearing of Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey, the Arizona woman has become a citizen reporter trying to highlight issues that the mainstream media seems uncomfortable to handle. Hell if I know what that last paragraph's supposed to mean, but the rest of it seems to be irritation that noted shitheels Loomer and Goldy were identified and kicked out of a meeting that was, ostensibly, for aspiring Muslims. Not that the ICNA's exactly lily-white themselves, but you know, two wrongs can be right twice a day or something.
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Oct 10, 2018 14:23
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PT6A posted:What would actually make much more sense than cops in schools are defence lawyers or other forms of legal aid available in schools. Teenagers gently caress up and do stupid poo poo, and it would be good to have a resource for students who find themselves in precarious legal situations to advise them to, ideally, stop whatever they're doing, but to also provide solid, confidential advice on how best to handle any situations that are already in progress. Or better yet, having been taught these things during an introductory civics class, where they learn such other useful tidbits like "what the constitution is for" and "how to pay tax".
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Oct 10, 2018 14:24
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