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Pleiades posted:Actually, IIRC, the vast majority of the Ordeal is damned, even those who chose not to participate. And I suspect that some of them were damned long before the Gay Cannibal Holocaust because it's all too easy to be damned on that world. Even Serwe is said to be there. But wasnt that the whole point of GCH? To get the Ordeal to engage in something so evil and depraved that none of them, neither the nobles nor the rank and file, were under any illusion that they were anything but damned. No prior deeds, no prior bravery, no innate birthright, could represent salvation. GCH was necessary in order for all of them to appreciate that the only thing that could possibly save their souls henceforth was to conquer Golgotteroth, so that theyd die to the last man in the attempt rather than quail in the face of the enemy and retreat or surrender. I mean, Im not gonna defend the drawn-out verbosity of the whole thing but it wasnt just random walking-corpse rape.
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Apr 21, 2018 19:23
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Phanatic posted:But wasn’t that the whole point of GCH? To get the Ordeal to engage in something so evil and depraved that none of them, neither the nobles nor the rank and file, were under any illusion that they were anything but damned. No prior deeds, no prior bravery, no innate birthright, could represent salvation. GCH was necessary in order for all of them to appreciate that the only thing that could possibly save their souls henceforth was to conquer Golgotteroth, so that they’d die to the last man in the attempt rather than quail in the face of the enemy and retreat or surrender. I always thought that the point of GCH was to show the desperation of the men involved. They were addicted to scranc meat and were starving/driven insane. I also think that the point is that the Gods only save who they like because a few of them were declared "holy" even if they DID participate in GCH or commit other atrocities. But, yea, it would make sense to ensure that they would conquer Golgotterath if they thought it would save them. Too bad Proyas was never given that chance. Still bitter...
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Apr 21, 2018 23:11
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Phanatic posted:But wasnt that the whole point of GCH? To get the Ordeal to engage in something so evil and depraved that none of them, neither the nobles nor the rank and file, were under any illusion that they were anything but damned. No prior deeds, no prior bravery, no innate birthright, could represent salvation. GCH was necessary in order for all of them to appreciate that the only thing that could possibly save their souls henceforth was to conquer Golgotteroth, so that theyd die to the last man in the attempt rather than quail in the face of the enemy and retreat or surrender. Ehh, I don't feel it. It's not like the Ordeal was anything less than fanatical and devoted from the word Go. even the rivalry between Proyas and saubon was pretty much kept at the academic level. If there had been division or strife at any point, I could see something like that being necessary to forge them back together, but Kellhus was pretty much always in control and the only person who he couldn't mind-charm basically died randomly after achieving nothing after 3 books of buildup, so...no. At least the John Ringo books are honest about being edgelord fare.
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Apr 22, 2018 17:26
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pon is better when it stands alone
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Apr 23, 2018 07:00
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Invalid Validation posted:Im about 3/4 through the first book and Im having trouble keeping track of anything other than Archamian. Probably has something to do with how I read books. Can someone gimme some cliff notes on what is going on? These are the major characters: Achamian: secret mage, spy. he must follow the holy war. along the way he discovers Kellhus which upends his faith. Cnaiur: wants to kill kellhus father. Joins the holy war because he supports Kellhus. Kellhus: summoned by his father. must control the holywar to achieve this. The holy war is the main background feature. It parallels the actual Crusades at some level. For example, the "Childrens Crusade" which really happened is mirrored in an event called the "Vulgar Crusade" in the books. Everyone is trying to control the holy war for their own purposes. Hope that helps a bit.
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May 1, 2018 08:01
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Pleiades posted:"he's unwilling to actually deal with the consequences of them." I figured it was ok to take some liberties with radiation sickness. But everyone else does face consequences - They get this hosed up madness, which has them fighting and kiling eachother. They are mentally damaged once the effect wears off. It is only Kellhus that is able to refocus them out of their disgust and self loathing - by offering them the false hope of salvation. Also they are loving damned. For what that is worth. Phanatic posted:But wasnt that the whole point of GCH? To get the Ordeal to engage in something so evil and depraved that none of them, neither the nobles nor the rank and file, were under any illusion that they were anything but damned. No prior deeds, no prior bravery, no innate birthright, could represent salvation. GCH was necessary in order for all of them to appreciate that the only thing that could possibly save their souls henceforth was to conquer Golgotteroth, so that theyd die to the last man in the attempt rather than quail in the face of the enemy and retreat or surrender. I saw it more that the eating sranc ( and later humans ) was just the only way to feed that massive army. Everything else , like sacrificing proyas, was just a side effect of that. I think the "you are damned unless you win" thing was certainly a +1 to morale, but mostly I saw it as necessary to keep them functioning. Not something that you would plan for the whole time ( but who knows - dunyain, blah blah blah ) genericnick posted:The idea that he split the book so he could put more of that in there is mind-boggling. His new publisher split the last book, I assume to make more money out of them.
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May 1, 2018 08:08
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kcroy posted:The holy war is the main background feature. It parallels the actual Crusades at some level. For example, the "Childrens Crusade" which really happened is mirrored in an event called the "Vulgar Crusade" in the books. Everyone is trying to control the holy war for their own purposes. Close, you're thinking of the People's Crusade, which immediately preceded the First Crusade. The Children's Crusade was over 100 years later but also got owned really hard. The plot and progression of the Holy War parallels the First Crusade extremely closely, even down to like, the geography of the battles and cities as Bakker describes them.
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May 1, 2018 14:06
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Even to the point of calling it the First Holy War in text despite the fact that there does not, in the event, turn out to be a second or third
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May 1, 2018 14:12
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Isn't the fight against Golgotterath the second holy war?
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May 1, 2018 15:01
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vortmax posted:Isn't the fight against Golgotterath the second holy war? You could make a case for it though I dont think the term is ever used (as opposed to the Ordeal), but even then Achamians book calls it the First Holy War before the Ordeal ever begins.
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May 1, 2018 15:04
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 furthermore, the term holy war (uncapitalized) is also applied to the first Ordeal against Golgotterath in Far Antiquity, so if anything it should be the Second Holy War
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May 1, 2018 15:16
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Kellhus's invasions of all the other kingdoms might count as Holy Wars too
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May 4, 2018 05:46
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Kellhus, post-thousandfold thought: We're going to Nilnamesh, and Conriya, and Zeu-uum YAH
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May 4, 2018 19:22
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Kellhus, post-thousandfold thought: We're going to Nilnamesh, and Conriya, and Zeu-uum YAH And then we're going back to Golgotterath to take back our souls!
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May 5, 2018 01:28
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 Anyone have a Heron Spear handy?
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Jul 12, 2018 03:46
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Clearly this is just like these incredibly bad novels
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Jul 12, 2018 09:49
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various cheeses posted:
i have no idea why i didn't jump to this conclusion
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Jul 17, 2018 22:56
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----error-deleted-----
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Aug 28, 2018 01:05
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just finished the series and started to read this thread, and this post made me laugh out loud:Kemper Boyd posted:I always thought of Akka as Slavoj Zizek.
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Oct 7, 2018 00:05
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ChubbyChecker posted:just finished the series and started to read this thread, and this post made me laugh out loud: He doesn't lick his lips anywhere near enough.
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Oct 8, 2018 15:42
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which of the characters are now some sort of gods? and when did that happen?
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Oct 8, 2018 23:56
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Kellhus? He's probably always been one because of all the temporal shenanigans that goes on in these books.
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Oct 9, 2018 03:11
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Cnaiur is also being possessed or turning into a deity avatar at the very end. It's kinda dumb.
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Oct 9, 2018 13:20
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ChubbyChecker posted:which of the characters are now some sort of gods? and when did that happen? Kelhus apparently made a deal with Ajokli during his journey to the Outside. The glossary describes a scene where he's found swapping his own head with the Decapitants and back again, so maybe he could have survived the salting (why is this not in the text Bakker?). Also apparently he was getting more and more possessed by Ajokli as he approached Golgotterath (why is this not in the text Bakker?) and becoming increasingly more insane the closer they got (why is this not in the text Bakker?) even though he gives every appearance of becoming more sane. Cnaiur just starts getting possessed by Ajokli as the whirlwind rips him apart - so either Ajokli is now free to roam the World (why is this not in the text Bakker?) or Cnaiur is just badass enough to summon gods into himself (why is th....okay I'll accept that Cnaiur is that badass) It's an apocalyptic failure of storytelling on pretty much every level.
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Oct 9, 2018 13:57
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Kelhus apparently made a deal with Ajokli during his journey to the Outside. The glossary describes a scene where he's found swapping his own head with the Decapitants and back again, so maybe he could have survived the salting (why is this not in the text Bakker?). wtf when i googled about the series i found about the god thing, and i thought that i had missed a book or something but looks like that i had missed that poo poo because i had listened the audiobooks and hadn't read the glossary
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Oct 9, 2018 14:01
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ChubbyChecker posted:wtf Given the huge gap between White-Luck Warrior and Great Ordeal, and then the speed with which Unholy Consult followed I get the feeling his publisher no longer gave a poo poo, and then hastily rushed publication to fulfil whatever contract they had with him. They certainly feel less tightly edited than PoN.
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Oct 9, 2018 14:27
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Given the huge gap between White-Luck Warrior and Great Ordeal, and then the speed with which Unholy Consult followed I get the feeling his publisher no longer gave a poo poo, and then hastily rushed publication to fulfil whatever contract they had with him. They certainly feel less tightly edited than PoN. Great ordeal and Unholy Consult were basically the same book, but split in half for publication reasons.
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Oct 9, 2018 17:40
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Also with a poo poo load of things happening that could have been awesome twists if there had actually been any real foreshadowing. So instead it ended with a lot of 'What the gently caress? Why is this happening? When did that happen? Who the gently caress is this?' I really like Bakker's overall world and his approach to fantasy but god in heaven it comes across pretty clearly that he did not have a loving clue about how he was going to get to where he ended up and I think that his idea of how the world works is kind of there but not really worked out. Also he needs to write a lot more and get a much better editor.
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Oct 9, 2018 21:18
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Given the huge gap between White-Luck Warrior and Great Ordeal, and then the speed with which Unholy Consult followed I get the feeling his publisher no longer gave a poo poo, and then hastily rushed publication to fulfil whatever contract they had with him. They certainly feel less tightly edited than PoN. Even putting the plot stuff aside, the last two books have a ton of typos. I think there's a thread on the second-apocalypse.com forums where Bakker says he recalls sending corrections on some of them to the publisher but they never got fixed, or something like that. So yeah I think the publisher really phoned it in at the end.
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Oct 10, 2018 01:40
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I mean they kept TGO in a drawer for like five years until people started asking WTF and prompted them to poo poo the remainder out the door. Granted we'd be better off if they'd refused to publish this trash and forced him to self-publish the remaining two titles. Safe to say Bakker has probably burned any ability to get further works printed, there won't be a third trilogy.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:10
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One good thing about the last book was that the series finally got a female protagonist that wasn't a whore.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:12
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Rime posted:I mean they kept TGO in a drawer for like five years until people started asking WTF and prompted them to poo poo the remainder out the door. At least it ended on a high note.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:22
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Mukulu posted:At least it ended on a high note. Nah, it ended in a cliffhanger. I wish that Bakker had had balls to end it properly.
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Oct 10, 2018 02:40
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ChubbyChecker posted:One good thing about the last book was that the series finally got a female protagonist that wasn't a whore. Cunny Dragon begs to differ.
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Oct 10, 2018 03:01
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ChubbyChecker posted:Nah, it ended in a cliffhanger. I wish that Bakker had had balls to end it properly. I say I say that was a joke sir. edit: That being said, I think it ended in a cool way and I don't care if we get more of Bakker's Earwa or not.
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Oct 10, 2018 03:21
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Mukulu posted:I say I say that was a joke sir. The concept for the ending (bad guys win, sometimes poo poo doesnt work out) is good, the execution (most plot threads either dont resolve at all or resolve in a really unsatisfactory way) is lame and lazy storytelling. The first trilogy is still rad though and I would still recommend it.
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Oct 10, 2018 03:29
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Bold Robot posted:The concept for the ending (bad guys win, sometimes poo poo doesn�t work out) is good, the execution (most plot threads either don�t resolve at all or resolve in a really unsatisfactory way) is lame and lazy storytelling. You only seem to be able to comprehend them through plot content rather than prose, which is what matters in prose literature, so I doubt your praise is trustworthy.
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Oct 10, 2018 05:06
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The ending was drenched in black seed.
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Oct 10, 2018 07:23
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its a bit antiquated to get all steamed up about plot in novels isn't it? its not the 19th century anymore grandpa
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Oct 10, 2018 08:21
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Bold Robot posted:The concept for the ending (bad guys win, sometimes poo poo doesnt work out) is good, the execution (most plot threads either dont resolve at all or resolve in a really unsatisfactory way) is lame and lazy storytelling. Yeah, if there'd been some kind of actual resolution or closure it could have been a pretty ballsy ending, but it leaves pretty much everything unanswered and having it be because the smartest man in the world made a mistake is just boring.
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Oct 10, 2018 20:58
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