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100 HOGS AGREE posted:I'm not a smart dude by any means but I found Feminism is for Everyone to be a really accessible introduction to basic feminist theory when i was much younger and only had a vague notion of how i thought things were wrong. I think it's a fair assumption that most people joining are libs and are already somewhat conversant in feminism and intersectionality. What they don't understand at all is what socialism is and how it differs from New Deal Keynesian stuff, let alone the history of the movement beyond DSA since 2015. (If they do, no need to read introductory texts, right?) Does hooks ever write from an explicitly socialist perspective?
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Oct 15, 2018 21:31
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freckle posted:the only ethical reason to use self checkout is to steal dumb rear end compuiter doesnt know that im buying organic apples and ringing them up as potatoes
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Oct 15, 2018 21:32
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Business Gorillas posted:Since we're doing hot takes on labor: using self check out lines is one degree of separation away from scabbing Agreed Therefore my refusal to use them makes me cool and good, right?
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Oct 15, 2018 21:32
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if the iww is so weak then why do i have to go back 80 years to find something beneficial they did? hit the books kid youre clearly not good at actually organizing
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Oct 15, 2018 21:33
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not using the self checkout line isn't a form of praxis at all. the self checkout is already there, and the workers' hours and coverage have already been cut. all waiting in line does is make management call workers off their breaks or lunches to handle the increased traffic, causing them to be forced to be on their feet for their entire shift instead of actually getting a break. i worked as a grocery store clerk for a decade - use the self checkout, you self-righteous fucks.
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Oct 15, 2018 21:36
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This is a good example of why we need to read more or at least learn to apply an analysis to our ~political actions~
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Oct 15, 2018 21:38
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Vhak lord of hate posted:if the iww is so weak then why do i have to go back 80 years to find something beneficial they did? hit the books kid youre clearly not good at actually organizing much like posting, results don't actually matter as long as you say the right things
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Oct 15, 2018 21:38
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Postoyevsky posted:from a debate on whether or not you should support Ben Jealous, a literal multimillionaire venture fund capitalist: lmao all of these fuckers joined dsa so that when they go to brunch they can tell their equally lovely, equally wealthy, equally lily white friends that "actually, I'm a SOCIALIST" they'll get the same polite, impressed gasps they got when they said they went to the pussy hat rally or whatever the gently caress. fire these people out of a trebuchet.
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Oct 15, 2018 21:39
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Syndlig posted:not using the self checkout line isn't a form of praxis at all. the self checkout is already there, and the workers' hours and coverage have already been cut. all waiting in line does is make management call workers off their breaks or lunches to handle the increased traffic, causing them to be forced to be on their feet for their entire shift instead of actually getting a break. fine, stealing it is then
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Oct 15, 2018 21:39
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Vhak lord of hate posted:if the iww is so weak then why do i have to go back 80 years to find something beneficial they did? hit the books kid youre clearly not good at actually organizing Same but socialism Hope y'all are being realistic about the modern world and focusing on building the blue wave
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Oct 15, 2018 21:42
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big black turnout posted:Same but socialism yeah absolutely no difference at all between the IWW winning labor concessions in the early 20th century vs, uh, what happened in the years since
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Oct 15, 2018 21:49
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Well you can't really expect better from MoCo can you
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Oct 15, 2018 21:50
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drat guess someone should go up to the unite here union that's striking at the marriot and tell them that they're all libs and wouldn't a better option be part of a dying club that would also take their money but doesnt have the capabilities for something like this but they could feel good about their Storied History
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Oct 15, 2018 21:50
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broke: refusing to use self checkout because it steals jobs from cashiers woke: refusing to go into businesses that have A/C because it steals jobs from workers who could be paid to follow you around with a fan. bespoke: stealing items in the self checkout but seriously Syndlig posted:use the self checkout, you self-righteous fucks.
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Oct 15, 2018 21:53
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I don't really buy the argument that IWW being reduced to its current state is more a function of its organizing methods being bad than the historical fact that groups which advocate overthrowing capitalism tend to get suppressed tbh. I mean their organizing methods might be bad but if that were necessary and sufficient to reduce them to irrelevance, then a whole lot of lovely unions should probably be out of business but keep trundling along.
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Oct 15, 2018 21:55
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Vhak lord of hate posted:drat guess someone should go up to the unite here union that's striking at the marriot and tell them that they're all libs and wouldn't a better option be part of a dying club that would also take their money but doesnt have the capabilities for something like this but they could feel good about their Storied History you can dual card you know if I had any other unions I could be a member of currently I would enthusiastically do so
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Oct 15, 2018 21:57
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Me: we're entering a new gilded age, but maybe even worse somehow, shits gonna get rough also me: who the fukc cares about major labor orgs in the gilded age, let's talk some real poo poo
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Oct 15, 2018 21:57
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i will never read a book or use the self-checkout
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Oct 15, 2018 21:57
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:I think it's a fair assumption that most people joining are libs and are already somewhat conversant in feminism and intersectionality. this is not at all a fair assumption
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Oct 15, 2018 21:58
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GunnerJ posted:I don't really buy the argument that IWW being reduced to its current state is more a function of its organizing methods being bad than the historical fact that groups which advocate overthrowing capitalism tend to get suppressed tbh. I mean their organizing methods might be bad but if that were necessary and sufficient to reduce them to irrelevance, then a whole lot of lovely unions should probably be out of business but keep trundling along. it's literally precisely why they fell apart so quickly. It's something that's very well documented. quote:The extremely high rate of IWW membership turnover during this era (estimated at 133% per decade) makes it difficult for historians to state membership totals with any certainty, as workers tended to join the IWW in large numbers for relatively short periods (e.g., during labor strikes and periods of generalized economic distress). quote:The IWW of 1912 disdained collective bargaining agreements and preached instead the need for constant struggle against the boss on the shop floor. It proved difficult, however, to maintain that sort of revolutionary enthusiasm against employers. In Lawrence, the IWW lost nearly all of its membership in the years after the strike, as the employers wore down their employees' resistance and eliminated many of the strongest union supporters. In 1938, the IWW voted to allow contracts with employers, so long as they would not undermine any strike. http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/05/union-contracts-and-romanticizing-the-iww
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Oct 15, 2018 21:59
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gently caress it, im gonna shop at aldi
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Oct 15, 2018 22:01
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I was always under the impression everyone getting jailed during WW1 for actually staying pacifist killed their momentum more than anything else
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Oct 15, 2018 22:01
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GunnerJ posted:I don't really buy the argument that IWW being reduced to its current state is more a function of its organizing methods being bad than the historical fact that groups which advocate overthrowing capitalism tend to get suppressed tbh. I mean their organizing methods might be bad but if that were necessary and sufficient to reduce them to irrelevance, then a whole lot of lovely unions should probably be out of business but keep trundling along. The US government was so sad that the IWW was hampering effective organizing by the good unions that they carried out a campaign of terror against wobblies to save unions 
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Oct 15, 2018 22:02
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Me: we're entering a new gilded age, but maybe even worse somehow, shits gonna get rough  the IWW formed after the Gilded Age
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Oct 15, 2018 22:02
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big black turnout posted:The US government was so sad that the IWW was hampering effective organizing by the good unions that they carried out a campaign of terror against wobblies to save unions you really need to brush up on your labor history here
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Oct 15, 2018 22:02
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Postoyevsky posted:it's literally precisely why they fell apart so quickly. It's something that's very well documented. This describes a cycle of temporary enthusiasm, action, and then burnout. That sucks, but it's a cycle that operates on a scale shorter than decades so I don't really see how that's sufficient to explain its decline.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:08
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the IWW had good politics but bad execution (or "praxis") and the current incarnation has kept them both. It's still not a bad place to go to connect to other organizers. Because of its labor history it tends to attract people interested in actually organizing when they're young. Most people leave the IWW but some stay there. You can always look at other major actually active unions for bad politics / bad execution (ATF, SEIU, etc.) bad politics / good execution (teamsters - I mean, they certainly effectively rebuffed their members' demand for a better contract effectively) and good politics / good execution (ILWU babyy)
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Oct 15, 2018 22:08
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Anarchism and IWW are weak poo poo, the only viable org to bring Full Communism Now is through the guided leadership of Chairman Bob
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Oct 15, 2018 22:10
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HiHo ChiRho posted:Anarchism and IWW are weak poo poo, the only viable org to bring Full Communism Now is through the guided leadership of Chairman Bob hell yeah, this is my poo poo
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Oct 15, 2018 22:12
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GunnerJ posted:This describes a cycle of temporary enthusiasm, action, and then burnout. That sucks, but it's a cycle that operates on a scale shorter than decades so I don't really see how that's sufficient to explain its decline. Why's that? If you dump tons of resources into a campaign, you succeed, and then you immediately fall apart in the months afterward, you're not even treading water, you're hemorrhaging money, time, and resources. The real reason the IWW declined so sharply was a combination of the lack of contracts and the constant schisms the organization went through. quote:During this period, in some parts of the country, there were two IWW halls, some of them very near to each other, each following one faction or the other. After the Russian Revolution, many of the socialist and communist members of the IWW left to work with the CIO and the Communist Party. Most of their high profile leaders like William Z Foster, etc, all left because the IWW explicitly took on an anti-Bolshevik and anti-communist position.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:12
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apokaladle posted:you can dual card you know sure, but i dont see why i would. i know exactly what the ufcw has helped its members achieve, i was part of a picket where they stopped an action my work was planning on taking. i have nothing but respect for iww's work with the prison strike and maybe that's where they could operate best (as a representative for workers that would normally never get a union) but i haven't seen any effect they've had on workplaces beyond "some of our members were present at this" which like, DSA had a presence at the Verizon strike, i wouldn't say we're particularly good workplace organizers
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Oct 15, 2018 22:13
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Joining unite here workers on the picket line is some good rear end praxis, I hope we can all agree. I was out for a few hours Saturday and I got to know some great folks and also got roasted for my atrocious Spanish, it ruled
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Oct 15, 2018 22:13
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but yes everyone itt should spend a few horas (hours) with unite here because its one of the more widespread strikes in awhile and the cause is good as hell
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Oct 15, 2018 22:17
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Vhak lord of hate posted:but yes everyone itt should spend a few horas (hours) with unite here because its one of the more widespread strikes in awhile and the cause is good as hell Unite Here have been on a roll recently They currently have several hundreds salts working for the United Airlines campaign, it owns. A lot of the new organizers I've hired in the past year have come from that pool of salts https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/09/17/united-airlines-catering-workers-ready-to-vote.html
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Oct 15, 2018 22:18
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Vhak lord of hate posted:sure, but i dont see why i would. i know exactly what the ufcw has helped its members achieve, i was part of a picket where they stopped an action my work was planning on taking. i have nothing but respect for iww's work with the prison strike and maybe that's where they could operate best (as a representative for workers that would normally never get a union) but i haven't seen any effect they've had on workplaces beyond "some of our members were present at this" which like, DSA had a presence at the Verizon strike, i wouldn't say we're particularly good workplace organizers They helped me and my coworkers organize and get a manager who was a serial sexual harasser fired, which was pretty rad. My work isn't likely to be an IWW shop anytime soon but it's not gonna be any kind of union shop regardless. The ILWU is extremely good and cool, and I think that's all my hot union takes for the moment Also the modern IWW at least absolutely has contracts, Berkeley recycling workers are negotiating right now for instance. Regardless of anything else, it's usually a good place to find good folks to organize with.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:19
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Postoyevsky posted:Why's that? If you dump tons of resources into a campaign, you succeed, and then you immediately fall apart in the months afterward, you're not even treading water, you're hemorrhaging money, time, and resources. Right, but that just means it's not a good method of operating on a scale of months. You've described their heyday as being a few decades. Why would they not fall apart within a year because of this? Or just five years? Or somehow remain active longer than they did, in spite of this? Declining due to schisms makes more sense, but plenty of leftist groups without the IWW's organizing model decline due to schisms. The organizing model really kind just seems tacked on as an explanation. I mean it could just be bad on its own merits without being the reason the IWW declined.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:20
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Unite Here is cool and let us hold our regional organizing training at their hall
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Oct 15, 2018 22:20
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Vhak lord of hate posted:but yes everyone itt should spend a few horas (hours) with unite here because its one of the more widespread strikes in awhile and the cause is good as hell they gave me a loving rad shirt so now I have to keep coming back
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Oct 15, 2018 22:21
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GunnerJ posted:Right, but that just means it's not a good method of operating on a scale of months. You've described their heyday as being a few decades. Why would they not fall apart within a year because of this? Or just five years? Or somehow remain active longer than they did, in spite of this? They followed boom and bust cycles within industries. You also had competing unions (many of which broke off from the IWW, like the Western Federation of Miners and the Socialist Labor Party/DeLeonism) that arose and did win contracts (and along with it a much more sustainable model). The Russian Revolution led to a big split as well where a lot of the prominent socialist and communist leaders exited the union (Jack Reed, William Z Foster, Big Bill Haywood, etc)
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Oct 15, 2018 22:27
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Postoyevsky posted:They followed boom and bust cycles within industries. You also had competing unions (many of which broke off from the IWW, like the Western Federation of Miners and the Socialist Labor Party/DeLeonism) that arose and did win contracts (and along with it a much more sustainable model). This isn't even right. Haywood fled to the USSR while on bail for "violating the espionage act" as an IWW member
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Oct 15, 2018 22:38
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