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The interesting thing there is that Thu/Sauron’s magic, which Galadriel will later characterize as deception and nothing like elven magic, is clearly 1) exactly like elven magic and 2) revelatory, not deceptive. It is Felagund whose song is deception — first his previous spell which disguised them as goblins, and then his counterspell to Thu, which evokes a sanitized version of the power of the Noldor:quote:Thû’s chanting swelled, Felagund fought, And Thu defeats him not by being a better singer or by having greater strength of will or being a superior order of being, but by argument, by reminding him of the truth underlying “Elfinesse” and how the world is actually evil as gently caress. quote:Then the gloom gathered: darkness growing I guess it’s not surprising that his not-yet-existent sister would be a bit defensive about this though, since Finrod’s plan was awful from the start.
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Oct 6, 2018 14:12
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TLDR: What happens to Men when they die in the Tolkien-verse? Does Tolkien ever paint a Resurrection-type scenario à la Catholic End-of-Days? Or is Death a final and mysterious ending that doesn't necessarily imply a rebirth? Not to derail this conversation on magic because it's extremely interesting but I have a question regarding the mortality of Men in Tolkien. Paradise/Heaven is Valinor where the Ainur and Elves live/return to right? Men aren't allowed there when they die. The big mystery is where do they go when they die? The books treat this both as a blessing and curse (consider the different reactions to mortality the Numenoreans have.) Now my interpretation was that men were released from Middle Earth altogether, no Valinor, no reincarnation, no nothing just a direct joining with Iluvatar, be it a conscious being or just a Universal Force or Entity, becoming one with it or whatever. Living forever within and as God but not necessarily resurrecting in the way Catholics would see it, which from my incredibly faulty understanding is you as you living forevermore in Heaven with all the other cool kids. I'll admit this is somewhat what my own spiritual leanings are (I consider myself agnostic from a very frail Catholic background), but I find it strange that Tolkien, devout Catholic that he was, who has inserted so many Catholic metaphors and imagery in the books, isn't all that clear on the issue. Now it's very possible he is explicit somewhere about it and I either haven't read it or misinterpreted it. Which is why I come to you guys, since you're much better versed in the matter than I am.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:32
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Tolkien at least considered the idea that some of the dead will rise at the end of time, among them Túrin (to help Fionwe/Tulkas/whoever kill Morgoth) and the armament of Pharazôn who were imprisoned under Valinor. Following which elves men & everyone else join the Ainur and God in a Second Music of creation. I don’t think there’s anything pointing to theosis in the Middle-earth material though. That’s more of an Eastern Orthodox thing than a Catholic though I think eventual union with god is a technically accepted concept in pretty much every denomination.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:59
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I don't think Tolkien ever definitively answered that. I think your idea of men joining with Illuvatar sounds plausible. I'm glad Tolkien left so many unanswered questions. I enjoy speculating on the mysteries in the work. It's fun to wonder about the areas (Rhun etc) that we don't learn much about.
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Oct 6, 2018 20:36
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I took it as an article of faith; Men and Elves don't know where Men go when they die they just know Man's fate isn't tied with the world itself which will eventually end forever, whereas the Elves are 'bound up within the circles of the world' and so Middle Earth's fate is theirs as well. It was called the Gift of Man because to undying elves they get to escape this never ending circle of life death rebirth thing, later it became the Doom of Man because WHO KNOWS and at least knowing what's going to happen is better than not knowing at all and just having to take Manwe or whoever's word for it that whatever happens is a blessing.
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Oct 8, 2018 02:42
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Doom isn’t necessarily negatively connoted word in Tolkien either (it comes from OE word meaning judgment or decision rather than like, inevitable disaster). The doom of men is what was foreordained for them, it’s only as terrible as fear makes it.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:16
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The only other Doom I can think of is the Doom of Mandos and that was all around pretty bad.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:21
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There’s also a Mount and Cracks of Doom, the (One) Ring of Doom, and the master of doom by doom mastered on the scary side, but less negative are Mahanaxar the Ring of Doom, seat of the government of Valinor, Elrond’s “doom that we must deem” (a direct illustration of the archaic sense in which Tolkien could think of the word), the doom that Beren and Lúthien chose for themselves, the mighty doom laid on Eärendil, the doom that was near at hand in Faramir’s dream. Tolkien really liked the word doom. Sometimes I think he was taking the piss by just having a chapter of the book where he constantly repeats it as an onomatopoeia.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:30
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Plus I'm pretty sure there were a few Tolkien-inspired wads for Doom.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:34
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Now doom doesn't feel like a word. Also can't believe I didn't remember MOUNT DOOM. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Oct 8, 2018 |
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Oct 8, 2018 03:35
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skasion posted:There’s also a Mount and Cracks of Doom, the (One) Ring of Doom, and the master of doom by doom mastered on the scary side, but less negative are Mahanaxar the Ring of Doom, seat of the government of Valinor, Elrond’s “doom that we must deem” (a direct illustration of the archaic sense in which Tolkien could think of the word), the doom that Beren and Lúthien chose for themselves, the mighty doom laid on Eärendil, the doom that was near at hand in Faramir’s dream. Tolkien really liked the word doom. Sometimes I think he was taking the piss by just having a chapter of the book where he constantly repeats it as an onomatopoeia. It's just as well Tolkien started the genre because using "of Doom" for everything was a one-time use thing and it's just as well he claimed it
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Oct 8, 2018 03:36
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Long ago I made myself subconsciously swap in "of Fate" for "of Doom" anywhere I saw it in Tolkien. It's served me well.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:40
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Data Graham posted:Long ago I made myself subconsciously swap in "of Fate" for "of Doom" anywhere I saw it in Tolkien. If only Gollum had thought of it as Mount Fate, he might have know to watch where his fate were!
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Oct 8, 2018 07:03
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skasion posted:There’s also a Mount and Cracks of Doom, the (One) Ring of Doom, and the master of doom by doom mastered on the scary side, but less negative are Mahanaxar the Ring of Doom, seat of the government of Valinor, Elrond’s “doom that we must deem” (a direct illustration of the archaic sense in which Tolkien could think of the word), the doom that Beren and Lúthien chose for themselves, the mighty doom laid on Eärendil, the doom that was near at hand in Faramir’s dream. Tolkien really liked the word doom. Sometimes I think he was taking the piss by just having a chapter of the book where he constantly repeats it as an onomatopoeia. Also the sound of drums.
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Oct 8, 2018 12:38
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skasion posted:Doom isn’t necessarily negatively connoted word in Tolkien either (it comes from OE word meaning judgment or decision rather than like, inevitable disaster). The doom of men is what was foreordained for them, it’s only as terrible as fear makes it. This still ties into faith, though. The first thing every messenger of the Lord in the Bible says upon first showing up and scaring the piss out of whoever they're there to talk to is 'Be not afraid.' They KNOW they're scary as poo poo to mere mortals. You just have to take their word for it they're not there to hurt you. Also when you're using 'Doom' as a counterpoint to the original 'Gift' that does seem to hint at a bit of forboding. Nobody likes to be judged, even if they think the judgement's going to go in their favor.
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Oct 8, 2018 13:34
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Yeah well. There’s certainly a reason why an OE word for judgment came to mean “you’re hosed”.
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Oct 8, 2018 13:37
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Fate is also latiny latin french latin. So you can see why Tolkien would eschew it.
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Oct 8, 2018 13:46
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Ginette Reno posted:
I think Fëanor was waaaay stronger than Sauron (without getting all DBZ about it), Sauron was like kicking around as some balrog wannabe around the same time. (Was Sauron oringally one of Aules maia? Thats in my brain somewhere.) Everyone was stronger and younger and more pure in the times of The Silmarillion. One of the things I've really liked about the LOTR as I've gotten older is thats its essentially post apocalyptic, the fall of the beleriand basically hosed everything and the only things left now are petty creatures with petty lives and powers, all glory is faded. Men got gifts from their much greater cousins, as a sort of sociological leg-up and were then supposed to be more or less left to their own devices, as illuvater intended. And of course Numenor went to poo poo too. Which rules. The LOTR is a small story - set in the ruins of a much greater time. Love it. skasion posted:
This is another tolkien-thing I really love, the intention behind a physical object changes the metaphysical properties of it. Eol makes two swords out meteoric iron, one of which goes to Thingol as an upjumped strong armed tax, the other he keeps. Anglachel goes off and has adventures, which apparently by chance are unfortunate and tragic, which just makes the blade itself worse? I recall a line about the ill will of the smith affecting the blade leading to Beleg nicking Turins wrist while freeing him? If anyone can post that that'd be rad. Like the cold voice of the iron is so evocative, and at the same time the blade blames its wielder which is disingenuous, as it has had a will of its own all this time. Just so awesome.
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Oct 12, 2018 16:53
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Southpaugh posted:This is another tolkien-thing I really love, the intention behind a physical object changes the metaphysical properties of it. Eol makes two swords out meteoric iron, one of which goes to Thingol as an upjumped strong armed tax, the other he keeps. “Melian” posted:There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long. That’s how Melian described the blade when they gave it to Beleg on his quest to bring Turin back, so it seems the blade is a dick no matter the wielder’s intentions.
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Oct 12, 2018 17:20
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Sauron’s definitely not much of a fighter — the only times we see him in direct physical conflict with anyone else, he gets his rear end kicked. Like ok, at least he managed to kill Gil-galad and Elendil before dying, I guess we have to count that as an upgrade on getting wrestled into submission by a dog. That said, Fëanor clearly isn’t much of a fighter either. The only battles he takes part in are the massacre of the Teleri at Swanhaven, where he just slaughters a bunch of mostly unarmed boatmen because he happened to invent swords first, and the Dagor nuinGiliath, where his performance is admittedly pretty impressive but leads to him fighting opponents he obviously can’t match and getting personally steamrolled. Though of course, that is the entire Noldorin grand strategy in a nutshell.
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Oct 12, 2018 17:26
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Crazy Larry posted:That’s how Melian described the blade when they gave it to Beleg on his quest to bring Turin back, so it seems the blade is a dick no matter the wielder’s intentions. Likewise the Elven Rings were crafted using arts learned from Annatar but the intention behind their making was preservation. There was never any question that the Three could be used for good but as soon as anyone sees The One (except Boromir) they know it's bad news no matter what they would try to do with it. Inanimate objects can have a disposition but it seems more down to the heart of their creator rather than the means of making.
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Oct 12, 2018 17:44
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Southpaugh posted:I think Fëanor was waaaay stronger than Sauron (without getting all DBZ about it), Sauron was like kicking around as some balrog wannabe around the same time. (Was Sauron oringally one of Aules maia? Thats in my brain somewhere.) Yes, Sauron was a Maia of Aule. That explains a lot of his skill/knowledge with crafting the Rings, Barad-Dur, etc. It also helps explain his downfall because much like Saruman and Aule he was obsessed with order and he saw Melkor as the fastest and most efficient way to achieve his desires for Middle Earth.
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Oct 12, 2018 17:48
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sunday at work posted:Likewise the Elven Rings were crafted using arts learned from Annatar but the intention behind their making was preservation. There was never any question that the Three could be used for good but as soon as anyone sees The One (except Boromir) they know it's bad news no matter what they would try to do with it. To add to the list of objects with their own intentions: Sam's Lothlorien rope, which unties itself when he laments about having to leave it behind otherwise. Are there any objects like that that aren't made by either elves/Maiar though? Or is that kind of crafting part of elves' inherent "elf magic"?
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Oct 13, 2018 00:18
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The rope is just woven like a chinese finger trap. Comes loose easily when it doesn't have the weight of a fat hobbit hanging from it. Nothing about (non-Ring) Elven crafting is magical. It's explicitly knowledge that can be learned (Aragorn's healing "powers" etc.).
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Oct 13, 2018 02:05
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The starglass is pretty magical
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Oct 13, 2018 02:44
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skasion posted:The starglass is pretty magical It's a glowstick.
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Oct 13, 2018 10:37
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Voice activated though
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Oct 13, 2018 12:01
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A smart glowstick.
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Oct 13, 2018 12:03
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And now I’m visualizing Frodo and Sam stumbling into a rave in Mordor and being a hit, why does my brain do these things to itself?
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Oct 13, 2018 17:52
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MadDogMike posted:And now I’m visualizing Frodo and Sam stumbling into a rave in Mordor and being a hit, why does my brain do these things to itself?
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Oct 14, 2018 00:25
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"Where there's a whip-" *crack* "There's a way"
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Oct 14, 2018 01:13
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Let me just say that this is a lovely thread to just randomly pick a page from and just read some nerdy discussions. A+ thread would nerd again.
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Oct 14, 2018 15:08
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MadDogMike posted:And now I’m visualizing Frodo and Sam stumbling into a rave in Mordor and being a hit, why does my brain do these things to itself?  
Alhazred fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Oct 14, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 15:11
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Man, the Akallabêth is really cool. Demon worship. Human sacrifice. Men going to war against the gods. Makes me wish Tolkien actually went through with The New Shadow.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:27
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When I was a little kid, I liked dinosaurs (which are sadly gone forever) and then steam trains (which are sadly gone forever) and later knights and castles (which are sadly gone forever) and eventually ancient languages (which are sadly gone forever) and, big surprise, ended up loving LotR, with its ever-present sense of sadness for things that are gone forever. Anyone else find themselves tracing out a similar progression...?
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Oct 16, 2018 03:11
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Sure, I just think about how future generations won't know what spring or autumn is due to extreme climate change and I get to that morose place easily!
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Oct 16, 2018 04:27
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You can still go ride a steam train
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Oct 16, 2018 05:44
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:You can still go ride a steam train Sometimes they even work!
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Oct 16, 2018 06:07
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There's lots of places in the world where you can fight giant spiders with a big knife and a glowstick some lady gave you.
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Oct 16, 2018 06:55
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:There's lots of places in the world where you can fight giant spiders with a big knife and a glowstick some lady gave you. But I already live in Australia.
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Oct 16, 2018 08:18
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