Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

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Flavahbeast: Jul 21, 2001

qkkl posted:

The Saudi monarchy being overthrown and replaced with an Iran-style theocracy would be a disaster for the US

What would a Iran style theocracy look like in KSA? Would it just be al Qaeda straight up running the country?

# ? Oct 17, 2018 18:40

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# ? May 25, 2024 23:41

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

What�s your go to music to listen to while cutting someone up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fneI-z8U_8

Hey whilst we're posting awfully about gulf monarchies here's an article for nobody to read, about how american special operations is now straight-up the farm team for international murder-for-hire with Yemen testing the business model. Not PMC or private security or whatever euphemism, no. Full on, unalloyed hitmen.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 18:40

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

You should read that story if only for the embedded video from a surveillance drone that shows how even The Best Of The Best of the coalition in yemen are absolute clownshoes, but also because if you're remotely interested in this thread's subject matter or have extremely sensible opinions about the "little green men" in Crimea then BOY HOWDY is this ever a collar-tugging state of affairs:

quote:

But over spaghetti with Dahlan, Golan and Gilmore were offering an extraordinary form of mercenary service. This was not providing security details, nor was it even traditional military fighting or counterinsurgency warfare. It was, both Golan and Gilmore say, targeted killing.

Gilmore said he doesn�t remember anyone using the word �assassinations� specifically. But it was clear from that first meeting, he said, that this was not about capturing or detaining Al-Islah�s leadership. �It was very specific that we were targeting,� said Gilmore. Golan said he was explicitly told to help �disrupt and destruct� Al-Islah, which he calls a �political branch of a terrorist organization.�

He and Gilmore promised they could pull together a team with the right skillset, and quickly.

In the weeks after that lunch, they settled on terms. The team would receive $1.5 million a month, Golan and Gilmore told BuzzFeed News. They�d earn bonuses for successful kills � Golan and Gilmore declined to say how much � but they would carry out their first operation at half price to prove what they could do. Later, Spear would also train UAE soldiers in commando tactics.

Golan and Gilmore had another condition: They wanted to be incorporated into the UAE Armed Forces. And they wanted their weapons � and their target list � to come from uniformed military officers. That was �for juridical reasons,� Golan said. �Because if the poo poo hits the fan,� he explained, the UAE uniform and dog tags would mark �the difference between a mercenary and a military man.�

Dahlan and the UAE government signed off on the deal, Golan and Gilmore said, and Spear Operations Group got to work.

...

One new member of the team, hired in early 2016, was the veteran of SEAL Team 6, Daniel Corbett, according to three sources and confirmed by photos. Corbett was a superb soldier, say those who know him, and had served multiple combat tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. He was still in the reserves, so the US military could deploy him at any moment; he collected a government salary; and he was supposed to report for monthly drills. And yet he was in Yemen on a private contract to work for a foreign military. It is unclear if he himself was involved in missions to assassinate anyone.

In a mysterious development, Corbett is currently in jail in Serbia, where he is being investigated for illegal handgun possession. The American veteran has been held there since February 2018. Corbett could not be reached, and his lawyer did not respond to calls seeking comment.

As they went about their work in Yemen, the mercenaries stayed in huts, sleeping in cots. Some carried distinctive weapons for potential close-in fighting. One, according to photographs, carried two knives on his belt that he could draw cross-handed. Another carried a small tomahawk.

The team began to develop what Gilmore called �esprit de corps.� They flew a makeshift flag featuring a skull and crossed swords � a kind of Jolly Roger on a black background � and painted that emblem onto their military vehicles and their living quarters.

Much about the Spear mercenary team remains unknown, and some who participated made clear they have no desire to shed light on what went down. Asked if he�d been deployed in the Yemen mission, one of the Americans replied, �If I was, you know I can�t discuss it.� The former Green Beret who was sucking a lollipop during the mission sent BuzzFeed News a text message: �A big story for you could be a tragic story for the cast of characters; especially if they are good men doing what was right but not necessarily legal.�

For his part, Gilmore said he �would have preferred that this stay off the radar.� But he decided to speak to BuzzFeed News because �once this comes out there�s no way that I�m going to stay out of it, so I�d prefer to own it. And I�m not going to try to hide from what I did.�

�It�s still,� he said, �some variety of the future of warfare.�

Gilmore is out of the mercenary business. He has since found himself in another gray-zone line of work, albeit one that�s far less dangerous. He said he�s with a California company that plans to make cannabis oil for vaporizers.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 18:49

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Willie Tomg posted:

Hey whilst we're posting awfully about gulf monarchies here's an article for nobody to read, about how american special operations is now straight-up the farm team for international murder-for-hire with Yemen testing the business model. Not PMC or private security or whatever euphemism, no. Full on, unalloyed hitmen.

That article is about American private mercs not US government special operations.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:05

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

mlmp08 posted:

That article is about American private mercs not US government special operations.

it's about

quote:

Back in the US, Golan and Gilmore started rounding up ex-soldiers for the first, proof-of-concept job. Spear Operations Group is a small company � nothing like the security behemoths such as Garda World Security or Constellis � but it had a huge supply of talent to choose from.

A little-known consequence of the war on terror, and in particular the 17 combined years of US warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan, is that the number of special operations forces has more than doubled since 9/11, from 33,000 to 70,000. That�s a vast pool of crack soldiers selected, trained, and combat-tested by the most elite units of the US military, such as the Navy SEALs and Army Rangers. Some special operations reservists are known to engage in for-profit soldiering, said a high-level SEAL officer who asked not to be named. �I know a number of them who do this sort of thing,� he said. If the soldiers are not on active duty, he added, they are not obligated to report what they�re doing.

But the options for special operations veterans and reservists aren�t what they were in the early years of the Iraq War. Private security work, mostly protecting US government officials in hostile environments, lacks the excitement of actual combat and is more �like driving Miss Daisy with an M4� rifle, as one former contractor put it. It also doesn�t pay what it used to. While starting rates for elite veterans on high-end security jobs used to be $700 or $800 a day, contractors said, now those rates have dropped to about $500 a day. Golan and Gilmore said they were offering their American fighters $25,000 a month � about $830 a day � plus bonuses, a generous sum in almost any market.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:07

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

mlmp08 posted:

That article is about American private mercs not US government special operations.

The point was that they're former spec ops, which is why spec ops was referred to as the farm team.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:08

Feldegast42: Oct 29, 2011; COMMENCE THE RITE OF SHITPOSTING

Flavahbeast posted:

What would a Iran style theocracy look like in KSA? Would it just be al Qaeda straight up running the country?

It would look a lot like Saudi Arabia

Does someone have that one photo of Steve Bannon sitting next to the grandson of Wahabbi?

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:09

Saladin Rising: Nov 12, 2016; When there is no real hope we must
mint our own. If the coin be
counterfeit it may still be passed.

qkkl posted:

If Americans are ok with farm animals being butchered to provide them with good tasting meat, I don't see why they should be opposed to people getting slaughtered to maintain the supply of cheap oil. The Saudi monarchy being overthrown and replaced with an Iran-style theocracy would be a disaster for the US. And just like meat production, Americans would rather not know the gory details about how the Saudi monarchy is maintained.

There's always a very interesting option C sitting in Syria:
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article41559747.html

An article from 2015 posted:

The stated U.S. aim is to oust the Islamic State from its de facto capital of Raqqa in Syria. But if the Shammar tribal militia, the biggest in Hasaka province, is any example, many Arab forces on the ground have a different agenda. For that matter, so does the Kurdish People�s Protection Force, or YPG, which dominates this area and has worked closely with the United States since the siege last year of the border town of Kobani.

The road to the palace of Sheikh Humaydi Daham al Hadi, the head of the Shammar tribe, winds through vast wheat fields in this isolated corner of eastern Syria, past checkpoints manned by YPG fighters, and then by his own guards. Hasaka, an oil, gas and grain producing area, is now part of what the YPG calls Jazera, one of three cantons that comprise Rojava, or west Kurdistan, a 200-mile-long corridor on Syria�s border with Turkey. The Syrian government, which still has troops in at least two cities, has acquiesced to YPG control.
--
Welcoming visitors in his vast reception room, Sheikh Humaydi says his goal is to lead a Shammar tribal uprising against the Islamic State �to liberate Syria, Iraq and beyond.� But he also wants to carry on a 2-century-old struggle against conservative Wahabi Islam, which he said destroyed the last Shammar emirate, and he favors the breakup of Saudi Arabia, where the puritanical sect dominates. �We are already working on that,� he said.

According to his son, Bandar al Humaydi, who heads the al Sanadid militia, the immediate priority of is �to liberate al Hawl and Ash Shaddadi from the Islamic State,� a reference to two towns in the oil- and gas-producing parts of Hasaka province. Bandar says he has 600 to 700 front-line fighters and 2,000 reserves but is in need of ammunition and better weapons, including TOW anti-tank missiles.

But any moves by al Sanadid depend on the YPG, which named Sheikh Humaydi co-president of the canton and recommended the al Sanadid militia to the U.S. military to receive military aid airdrops, the only known one of which took place Oct. 11.

In fact, every major decision in Rojava is up to the YPG, including the actual distribution of U.S. aid. Bandar al Humaydi said YPG military commanders told him that they had received the first U.S. shipment of 50 tons of ammunition, but that so far the Kurdish militia hadn�t distributed it. It�s not clear if the Kurdish militia supports Bandar�s plan to liberate al Hawl and Ash Shaddadi.

Al Hawl and Ash Shaddadi were liberated in November 2015 and February 2016 respectively and have anti-ISIS hubs for years now, so yeah the YPG (now SDF) pretty clearly supported Bandar�s plan.

Thus, Option C: Overthrow the house of Saud and replace them with Sheikh Humaydi Daham al Hadi of the Shammar, who have a proven pro-US and anti-ISIS stance. Bonus points if they bring some of that �calan-inspired Democratic Confederalism with them. :v:

_{This post is meant as a joke, but the current US president is a joke and the leaders of Saudi Arabia are also jokes, so}

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:11

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Willie Tomg posted:

it's about

Agreed. Your initial summary was misleading. Also agreed that the article is important and certainly the USG should have a role in determining what US citizens/companies can legally do overseas.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:12

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

mlmp08 posted:

Agreed. Your initial summary was misleading.

Ignoring the direct pipeline from special forces operations, to doing those same operations but this time as warcrimes performed as a private entity for foreign governments using fake IDs to obscure their origins is some sub-fishmech level hairsplitting

e; vvvv See?

Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Oct 17, 2018

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:15

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Willie Tomg posted:

Ignoring the direct pipeline from special forces operations, to doing those same operations but this time as warcrimes performed as a private entity for foreign governments using fake IDs to obscure their origins is some sub-fishmech level hairsplitting

So did you have amnesia that made you forget the concept of mercenaries orrr what

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:17

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

mlmp08 posted:

That article is about American private mercs not US government special operations.

Not rereading but I think I remember one of them was still technically in the navy reserve with top secret security clearance and everything. This poo poo absolutely needs to be illegal

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:28

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Squalid posted:

Not rereading but I think I remember one of them was still technically in the navy reserve with top secret security clearance and everything. This poo poo absolutely needs to be illegal

Yeah, I�m not endorsing it. There�s just a decided legal difference between a civilian, including off-orders reservist, doing something privately versus US government-tasked units doing an operation.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:40

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

mlmp08 posted:

Yeah, I�m not endorsing it. There�s just a decided legal difference between a civilian, including off-orders reservist, doing something privately versus US government-tasked units doing an operation.

True, though I see strong parallels here to the way Saudi leadership have tolerated support for anti western terrorists within their kingdom, and don�t really see any moral difference between what these guys were doing and the jihadists.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 19:47

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

mlmp08 posted:

Yeah, I'm not endorsing it. There's just a decided legal difference between a civilian, including off-orders reservist, doing something privately versus US government-tasked units doing an operation.

A mouse could starve on that legal difference when the recruitment of such is so overwhelmingly of one sector of a nation's military. To claim nationals are granted a transformative status doing warcrimes Donbass or Yemen that incidentally aid the geopolitical goals of their home nation under a banner of not-quite-plausible deniability demeans the legal order you'd purport to invoke.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 20:06

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

I think you lack a basic understanding of the law is all.

Be upset about mercs; it�s a real problem. But don�t act like private citizens and government forces are identical. That�s dumb.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 20:09

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

mlmp08 posted:

I think you lack a basic understanding of the law is all.

Be upset about mercs; it�s a real problem. But don�t act like private citizens and government forces are identical. That�s dumb.

I don't precisely recall, but weren't the little green men in Ukraine using similar plausibly-deniable bullshit to keep themselves off the Russian military's books? The significant but deliberately ambiguous US military presence in Yemen does make the use of highly-trained, well-equipped, and well-informed American mercenaries slightly suspect.

Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Oct 17, 2018

# ? Oct 17, 2018 20:14

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Darth Walrus posted:

I don't precisely recall, but weren't the little green men in Ukraine using similar plausibly-deniable bullshit to keep themselves off the Russian military's books?

Not really, no. The PMC operating there was pretty big and both has and had contracts with MoD and its own armored vehicle formations.

Putin claimed soldiers were taking leave an showing up in Ukraine but that was patently false. Uniformed and organized units, including the flagged Russian Navy, seized Crimea.

Distinct formations of tanks that have never been exported from Russia operated in Ukraine. Russian uniformed artillery formations fired from inside Russia across the border into Ukraine. Russian SAMs started showing up in Ukraine.

That�s not the same as a legally and morally dubious private org run by some American civilians working overseas.

A closer analog would be Russian advisors and special operations �assisting� separatists and comparing that with US government consultation, arms sales, and assistance to KSA and UAE.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 20:21

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Darth Walrus posted:

I don't precisely recall, but weren't the little green men in Ukraine using similar plausibly-deniable bullshit to keep themselves off the Russian military's books?

Yes, but there's a difference between a handful of idiots playing Jason Bourne and an armored division "going on vacation" to a neighboring country wirh their tanks.

Also this is further proof that all SEALs are morons.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 20:25

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Squalid posted:

Not rereading but I think I remember one of them was still technically in the navy reserve with top secret security clearance and everything. This poo poo absolutely needs to be illegal

I'd be surprised if he didn't violate the UCMJ somehow, but I don't know much about the reserves. You actually used to need an active US security clearance as a pre-req for getting in on a contract that blackwater or whoever else had given that they were operating as an extension of US forces, so that aspect of it isn't anything special.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 21:37

Coxswain Balls: Jun 4, 2001

Willie Tomg posted:

You should read that story if only for the embedded video from a surveillance drone that shows how even The Best Of The Best of the coalition in yemen are absolute clownshoes, but also because if you're remotely interested in this thread's subject matter or have extremely sensible opinions about the "little green men" in Crimea then BOY HOWDY is this ever a collar-tugging state of affairs:

You missed one of the best parts.

quote:

Still, the Yemen gig crossed into uncharted territory, and some of the best soldiers declined. �It was still gray enough,� Gilmore said, �that a lot of guys were like, �Ah, I�m good.� �

Gilmore himself said he has an imperfect record. During a live-fire training mission he led, back in his Navy days, he says he accidentally shot another SEAL. Gilmore said that�s what prompted him to leave the Navy, in 2011. His last major job before joining Spear was as an executive at an artisanal Tequila company.

Best of the best indeed.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 22:07

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

qkkl posted:

The Saudi monarchy being overthrown and replaced with an Iran-style theocracy would be a disaster for the US.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 22:16

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

It was the bit about meeting and admiring Arkan. That really did it for me.

# ? Oct 17, 2018 22:17

SimonCat: Aug 12, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo; College Slice

Willie Tomg posted:

You should read that story if only for the embedded video from a surveillance drone that shows how even The Best Of The Best of the coalition in yemen are absolute clownshoes, but also because if you're remotely interested in this thread's subject matter or have extremely sensible opinions about the "little green men" in Crimea then BOY HOWDY is this ever a collar-tugging state of affairs:

https://youtu.be/jDGDw4GWcf4

# ? Oct 18, 2018 03:27

Relevant Tangent: Nov 18, 2016; Tangentially Relevant

Ayn Randi posted:

mohammed bone sawman

# ? Oct 18, 2018 03:40

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

mlmp08 posted:

I think you lack a basic understanding of the law is all.

Be upset about mercs; it�s a real problem. But don�t act like private citizens and government forces are identical. That�s dumb.

The issue parallel to this is that for the last 70 years pretty much 100% of covert action by the US appears to be private citizens with commercial employment. Reading between the lines of this, certain parts of this sound very clearly as though they've been run through a bureaucratic legal team intending to minimize legal exposure (especially the making them local military loophole as a convenient get out of war crimes free card). That 100% is not something a tiny pmc shop comes up with, that's a policy someone else was using that they just borrowed.

Anyways, the real revelation of this isn't so much that it's happening, but that the scale of it is getting pretty wild and more brazen as well as hints that it has become a firmly established system of operating. This has definitely been going on for a long drat time, if you talk to people who'd been in SOF for a long time they had a way of having ended up in all kinds of weird places and on loan in some really weird command structures and even the active duty SOF command structures and procedures were conducive to people ending up all over the place as situations merited.

Lastly, American soldiers (even reservists) taking orders from foreign superiors, even if just as a legal cover, is a big deal and has never been done even at all openly.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Oct 18, 2018

# ? Oct 18, 2018 10:18

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

Trump's hiding intelligence from Congress now because it makes the Saudis look bad.

https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/1052860797016309760

# ? Oct 18, 2018 12:10

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

I am honestly failing to see how this is different from anything every administration has done in US history in regard to SA.

# ? Oct 18, 2018 12:42

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

OK, what's your previous example of them killing a US resident in their embassy?

# ? Oct 18, 2018 12:45

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Herstory Begins Now posted:

The issue parallel to this is that for the last 70 years pretty much 100% of covert action by the US appears to be private citizens with commercial employment.

That's an objectively and easily verifiably false position from which to start a discussion.

It's only closer to true, but still inaccurate, if you limit the scope of "the US" to "the CIA."

# ? Oct 18, 2018 12:49

Double Bill: Jan 29, 2006

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/saudi-suspect-in-khashoggi-case-dies-in-car-accident-report-138007

quote:

A Turkish newspaper reported on Oct. 18 that one of the suspects involved in the disappearance of Saudi writer Jamal Khashoggi died in a �suspicious car accident� in Riyadh.

Okay who did it, US or SA? Jason Bourne?

# ? Oct 18, 2018 12:49

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Double Bill posted:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/saudi-suspect-in-khashoggi-case-dies-in-car-accident-report-138007

Okay who did it, US or SA? Jason Bourne?

lol, surprised this wasn't happening earlier.

# ? Oct 18, 2018 12:54

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Almost expected airplane full of accused mysteriously crashing. You know, greatly annoying KSA because now how will they figure this out?!

# ? Oct 18, 2018 12:55

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

Mozi posted:

OK, what's your previous example of them killing a US resident in their embassy?

Maybe not in their embassy, but there was that suppressed report about how they may have helped alter the New York skyline.

Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Oct 18, 2018

# ? Oct 18, 2018 13:14

Flayer: Sep 13, 2003; by Fluffdaddy; Buglord

SA now publically assassinating their own spooks in Riyadh. That is ridiculous. Next time MBS wants something dodgy done it'll be with the caveat that whoever is sent to do it might get killed off afterwards. Morale must be crashing.

# ? Oct 18, 2018 13:27

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrE_cDvcgJg

# ? Oct 18, 2018 13:43

CrazyLoon: Aug 10, 2015; "..."

Screw that, just link the Benny Hill theme next time. This poo poo's on par with that by this point.

# ? Oct 18, 2018 13:58

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

Holy poo poo.

https://twitter.com/FrudBezhan/status/1052909063246360576

# ? Oct 18, 2018 14:32

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Flayer posted:

SA now publically assassinating their own spooks in Riyadh. That is ridiculous. Next time MBS wants something dodgy done it'll be with the caveat that whoever is sent to do it might get killed off afterwards. Morale must be crashing.

Is there detail on this?

# ? Oct 18, 2018 14:38

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# ? May 25, 2024 23:41

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

mlmp08 posted:

Almost expected airplane full of accused mysteriously crashing. You know, greatly annoying KSA because now how will they figure this out?!

The problem is they were all following orders. Killing people who kill on your orders because they followed orders is a bad look if you want people to kill on your orders again.

# ? Oct 18, 2018 15:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

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