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VitalSigns posted:This isn't contradictory: bumbling idiots can still win internal party primaries thanks to institutional advantages and money, then go down in flames in general elections where these advantages no longer carry you over the finish line. Good thing Republicans don't have institutional advantages and money, since you're admitting leftists can never hope to beat anyone who has those things.
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Oct 22, 2018 03:33
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Fulchrum posted:Good thing Republicans don't have institutional advantages and money, since you're admitting leftists can never hope to beat anyone who has those things. It's almost like leftists don't generally argue that electoralism by itself can save us from capitalist excess and we need outside organized action like labor strikes and protests to pressure the system from without.
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Oct 22, 2018 03:38
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Lightning Knight posted:It's almost like leftists don't generally argue that electoralism by itself can save us from capitalist excess and we need outside organized action like labor strikes and protests to pressure the system from without. Thats a great slogan for a politician, "Do it yourselves, I intend to lose this thing".
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Oct 22, 2018 03:40
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Fulchrum posted:Thats a great slogan for a politician, "Do it yourselves, I intend to lose this thing". I mean, no, socialist politicians should make good faith efforts to win. But AOC isn't going to change the entire system by herself, and workers and other marginalized people need to organize and unite to pressure the system instead of waiting for our leaders to decide to make changes on their own.
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Oct 22, 2018 03:45
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I think Fulchrum and everyone like him should uh, gently caress off and die (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 22, 2018 03:45
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Fulchrum posted:Historically, its not the people opposing Bernie who have thrown a tantrum about losing fair and square. 24% of your ilk voted for McCain in 2008 vs 6-12 percent of mine went Trump. Mother dropped hints of assassinations of a black candidate as her reason to stay in the race 2 months more than Bernie did in 2016. Abuela did only 8 campaign appearances in 2008 vs Bernie's 20+ for her in 2016. Hrmmmmm
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Oct 22, 2018 03:47
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Matt Zerella posted:Mother dropped hints of assassinations of a black candidate as her reason to stay in the race 2 months more than Bernie did in 2016. You do know realize that would have put her as campaigning into mid October, right? Also, Hillary never point blank refused to talk about Obamas accomplishments, and never used the appearances purely as a means to increase her own profile and in no way support Obamas. And its good to see you trotting out the numbers that don't track the Bernie supporters who just stayed home, making the argument completely pointless.
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Oct 22, 2018 03:56
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Fulchrum posted:Good thing Republicans don't have institutional advantages and money, since you're admitting leftists can never hope to beat anyone who has those things. No I don't think 2020 will be as easy for the establishment to rig
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Oct 22, 2018 03:57
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Fulchrum posted:You do know realize that would have put her as campaigning into mid October, right? You can say whatever you want, friend, Bernie never hinted at her being killed like Bobby Kennedy and he didn't unleash birtherism on us. E: he also told everyone to shut the gently caress up about her emails
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Oct 22, 2018 03:58
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VitalSigns posted:No I don't think 2020 will be as easy for the establishment to rig So you're agreeing to not complain at all and just accept it if he loses the primary?
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Oct 22, 2018 04:04
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Phi230 posted:I think Fulchrum and everyone like him should uh, gently caress off and die Fulchrum is a good argument for Maoism. I just take solace that Machin is likley out.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:09
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Crowsbeak posted:Fulchrum is a good argument for Maoism. I just take solace that Machin is likley out. Did you ever stop endlessly linking to Breitbart articles?
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Oct 22, 2018 04:12
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Fulchrum posted:So you're agreeing to not complain at all and just accept it if he loses the primary? Oh I think they'll try, their political lives depend on it, but the media blackout won't succeed again and the Democratic establishment has been totally discredited and their supposed election-winning competence exposed as a fraud, so it will be harder for them to succeed next time around. Will you be voting for Bernie if he wins the nomination?
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Oct 22, 2018 04:15
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Serious question Fulchrum. What kind of a society do you want? If I gave you dictatorial powers to create any legislation you desired what kind of society would you create? I'm genuinely curious.VitalSigns posted:Will you be voting for Bernie if he wins the nomination? Also still curious about this.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:18
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VitalSigns posted:Oh I think they'll try, their political lives depend on it, but the media blackout won't succeed again and the Democratic establishment has been totally discredited and their supposed election-winning competence exposed as a fraud, so it will be harder for them to succeed next time around. So, in other words, no, you will still refuse to accept that Bernie lost fair and square.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:19
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Fulchrum posted:So, in other words, no, you will still refuse to accept that Bernie lost fair and square. You didn't answer the question he asked you.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:21
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readingatwork posted:Serious question Fulchrum. What kind of a society do you want? If I gave you dictatorial powers to create any legislation you desired what kind of society would you create? I'm genuinely curious. Essentially, Apartheid directed against Republicans with allowances for removal from the Republican caste for adoption. Doesn't really matter, since we're not gonna get there, so instead you should direct your efforts to trying to make the system we have suck less, not just sitting around thinking of ways to punish Democrats if you got to be in charge.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:27
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You should answer the question, Fulchrum. Would you support Bernie Sanders if he was the Democratic nominee, publicly on the Something Awful forums (assuming you are still posting here) and with your vote, in 2020?
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Oct 22, 2018 04:30
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Fulchrum posted:Essentially, Apartheid directed against Republicans with allowances for removal from the Republican caste for adoption. You're not even in it to improve life for anyone, just to win your game of sportsball against Rival Team. I mean, I'm not surprised, but I didn't expect you to state it so plainly.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:30
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Fulchrum posted:So, in other words, no, you will still refuse to accept that Bernie lost fair and square. Depends on whether the DNC repeats its 2016 shenanigans. If they do then of course I will refuse to accept it as will many other people, maybe they should run the impartial election they promised. If Bernie wins will you vote for him and support him in the general election?
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Oct 22, 2018 04:33
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Not a Step posted:You're not even in it to improve life for anyone, just to win your game of sportsball against Rival Team. That part kind of takes care of itself if you just remove all political agency from the people actively trying to make the world worse. I didn't think "When you stop people who are making things worse from making things worse, things get better" needed to be explained. Lightning Knight posted:You should answer the question, Fulchrum. Would you support Bernie Sanders if he was the Democratic nominee, publicly on the Something Awful forums (assuming you are still posting here) and with your vote, in 2020? Yes, I will. Now all of you pledge to accept the result of primary and not claim it was rigged or stolen, no matter who wins.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:34
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Fulchrum posted:That part kind of takes care of itself if you just remove all political agency from the people actively trying to make the world worse. But what if it is rigged or stolen? E: Without the Republicans the Democrats would immediately schism into the center right Democrats and the actual left. Within 20 years the center right Democrats would be indistinguishable from the Republican party Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 04:35
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Fulchrum posted:Yes, I will. Now all of you pledge to accept the result of primary and not claim it was rigged or stolen, no matter who wins. I have never claimed that 2016 was rigged or stolen. Do you believe that Bernie will be the 2020 nominee?
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Oct 22, 2018 04:36
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Lightning Knight posted:Do you believe that Bernie will be the 2020 nominee? No, I don't. Not a Step posted:But what if it is rigged or stolen? Its amazing how nearly all of these conspiracy theories by the left seem to come down to the eeeevil establishment really truly wanting to be Republicans, but accidentally ticking the wrong box and being too embarrassed to correct it later. And I like the admission that even if you completely removed all conservatives from voting, leftists would still be absolutely powerless to do anything. Lightning Knight posted:Ok Fulchrum. So you're now going to write a post that says: I see it took you less than a day to start abusing your power. I, Something Awful forums user Fulchrum, will support Bernie Sanders publicly in my posting and by voting for him, if he is the 2020 Democratic nominee. However, I do not believe he will be the 2020 Democratic nominee. 
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Oct 22, 2018 04:38
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Fulchrum posted:No, I don't. Ok Fulchrum. So you're now going to write a post that says: Fulchrum, whiny baby posted:I, Something Awful forums user Fulchrum, will support Bernie Sanders publicly in my posting and by voting for him, if he is the 2020 Democratic nominee. However, I do not believe he will be the 2020 Democratic nominee. And toxx on it. And if you don't, I will ban you if you continue to post in this thread. Because a) I don't like you and b) you're a poo poo poster. Note: you don't have to do this if you don't want to, but then you're not allowed to post in this thread so long as I am mod.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:39
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Fulchrum posted:Its amazing how nearly all of these conspiracy theories by the left seem to come down to the eeeevil establishment really truly wanting to be Republicans, but accidentally ticking the wrong box and being too embarrassed to correct it later. I mean, Manchin is a Democrat who exists so... yes? The Democrats have taken a 40 year long slide into becoming the new right wing party in America and I see no reason why they would ever stop.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:45
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Fulchrum posted:Essentially, Apartheid directed against Republicans with allowances for removal from the Republican caste for adoption. Do you really think that would be the best possible society? I mean, yeah, Republicans are garbage and I'd love so see their leaders thrown in prison as much as anyone here but do you really think the problems in American society begin and end with them? Will this new permanent Democratic supermajority give free healthcare to everyone? Will they break up corporate power? Would they get money out of politics?Hell, would they implement *any* sort of major redistribution of wealth at all considering who funds them? I'm not so sure. Not to harp on this too much but I find it fascinating that when given the opportunity to pitch your worldview you made a joke and went right back into "better things aren't possible" mode. Fulchrum posted:Yes, I will. Now all of you pledge to accept the result of primary and not claim it was rigged or stolen, no matter who wins. If the 2020 primary isn't actually rigged then sure. I still reserve the right to bitch endlessly about how much I hate Biden/Booker/whoever though. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 04:46
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You gotta toxx on it Fulchrum. Like this: You are allowed to still criticize Bernie Sanders if you don't agree with him, but you have to support him like you would Booker or Harris. I don't see how this is an abuse of power, I am simply holding you accountable for your publicly stated views.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:48
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Not a Step posted:I mean, Manchin is a Democrat who exists so... yes? The Democrats have taken a 40 year long slide into becoming the new right wing party in America and I see no reason why they would ever stop. https://twitter.com/AwardsDaily/status/886965153089990656/photo/1
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Oct 22, 2018 04:49
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Not a Step posted:You're not even in it to improve life for anyone, just to win your game of sportsball against Rival Team. Fulchrum is an affluent white male; he has nothing to lose in maintaining the status quo. Millions dead in the third world due to climate change by 2100? Well, you just gotta work with the capitalist system you've been given and make it suck a little less for us in the 1st world. Every other industrialized nation has a way to provide healthcare to their citizens in a sane manner any yet in the US people go into extreme debt for basic medical care? Well them's just the breaks. No loving wonder third way centrists hemorrhaged seats at the local, state, and federal level. People want things to be better, not "suck less". Fulchrum posted:That part kind of takes care of itself if you just remove all political agency from the people actively trying to make the world worse. That's not how the real world works; you can still stop horrible poo poo from happening and then do jack poo poo to improve people's lives. See 2008-2016 where basic poo poo like "Do gay men and women have to right to marry someone of the same sex?" required the population to drag an "evolving" Democratic Party to the answer of "Of course yes you dipshits". Or letting the financial sector and corporations totally off the hook for almost nuking the global economy. In the context of lovely US politics I guess that's correct; in any other country they wouldn't even be close to the left/center.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:54
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Note: Fulchrum, for it to count, you have to post the text with the emote, to show that you are committing to it.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:55
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Nice chart. Where is the Clinton era deregulation, the withdrawal of support for unions, Obama's attempt at a Grand Bargain to cut social security, etc? I suspect the tool may be extremely flawed. That or doing its job perfectly. Also, let me laugh heartily at 'to the left of the New Deal era'. Government in the New Deal era was all about breaking up concentrations of wealth and power. Now we have Obama shoveling trillions of dollars into a corrupt banking system to keep it propped up while letting banks foreclose on homes by the million in order to 'foam the runway'. Do you actually critically interrogate *any* belief you hold, or explore history in any capacity outside of infographics from your favorite center right think tanks?
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Oct 22, 2018 04:56
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Not a Step posted:Nice chart. Where is the Clinton era deregulation, the withdrawal of support for unions, Obama's attempt at a Grand Bargain to cut social security, etc? I suspect the tool may be extremely flawed. That or doing its job perfectly. That looks like a chart of what the voters in the party want, not a chart of enacted policy.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:57
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For those of you not up to speed in succ.txt, Sasha Stone is right up there with Messing and Allbright in the #stillwithher deadenders.
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Oct 22, 2018 04:57
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So the Democratic Party that deleted the Great Society is more economically left than the Democratic Party that created it? Uh...
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Oct 22, 2018 05:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That looks like a chart of what the voters in the party want, not a chart of enacted policy. The text says it's measuring the opinions of elected officials but I'm very curious exactly how they're defining "liberal" and "conservative" because I 100% don't buy that Bill Clinton's administration was more liberal than FDR.
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Oct 22, 2018 05:02
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readingatwork posted:Do you really think that would be the best possible society? I mean, yeah, Republicans are garbage and I'd love so see their leaders thrown in prison as much as anyone here but do you really think the problems in American society begin and end with them? Will this new permanent Democratic supermajority give free healthcare to everyone? Will they break up corporate power? Would they get money out of politics?Hell, would they implement *any* sort of major redistribution of wealth at all considering who funds them? I'm not so sure. You realize Apartheid strictly limits the acquisition and holding of property and assets, right? When the Koch Brothers and Sheldon Adelson have all of their property and money seized by the government, the question of money in politics becomes pretty moot. As does wealth redistribution, since you're taking all the money away from 95% of all billionaires and investing it in government works. BadOptics posted:In the context of lovely US politics I guess that's correct; in any other country they wouldn't even be close to the left/center. Christ, warn me next time, that flying goalpost nearly took my head off. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 05:02
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BadOptics posted:That's not how the real world works; you can still stop horrible poo poo from happening and then do jack poo poo to improve people's lives. See 2008-2016 where basic poo poo like "Do gay men and women have to right to marry someone of the same sex?" required the population to drag an "evolving" Democratic Party to the answer of "Of course yes you dipshits". Or letting the financial sector and corporations totally off the hook for almost nuking the global economy. I feel like giving credit here to "the population" absolves Americans in general for being aggressively homophobic and bigoted and ignores that it was in practice the work of a number of LGBT activists and lawyers that brought us to where we are now. Americans in general didn't wake up one day and decide "you know, gay people? Pretty alright!" on a whim, after all.
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Oct 22, 2018 05:04
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This is actually a very good example of liberals valuing "data" but being too ignorant to correctly interpret it. This is basically just measuring polarization, and showing that Democrats over time have become more consistent in adhering to whatever is considered "liberal" at the time, while the left is discussing how "what is considered liberal" has shifted to the right. Hieronymous Alloy posted:That looks like a chart of what the voters in the party want, not a chart of enacted policy. Not a Step posted:Nice chart. Where is the Clinton era deregulation, the withdrawal of support for unions, Obama's attempt at a Grand Bargain to cut social security, etc? I suspect the tool may be extremely flawed. That or doing its job perfectly. The chart itself is basically correct as a way of showing that politics has in some ways become more "polarized"; people are just interpreting it incorrectly. From what I've read about the methodology, it seems to be measuring the extent to which Democratic politicians adhere to whatever is considered "liberal" at a particular time. So it doesn't really care whether what is considered "liberal" is actually left-wing; just the extent to which Democratic politicians adhere to it. So I'm pretty sure it would actually consider a congress where half of Democrats were communists and half were "regular" liberals to be "less liberal" than our current one, lol. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 05:18
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Fulchrum posted:You realize Apartheid strictly limits the acquisition and holding of property and assets, right? When the Koch Brothers and Sheldon Adelson have all of their property and money seized by the government, the question of money in politics becomes pretty moot. As does wealth redistribution, since you're taking all the money away from 95% of all billionaires and investing it in government works. You realize that there are Billionaires and corporations that favor Democrats right? Silicon Valley sticks out the most to me but there are others as well (though most throw money at both parties to play it safe). If all your solutions are hyper-focused on Republicans then whats to stop the next generation of corrupt capitalists from simply buying Democratic candidates and running them as "liberals"? Remember, you haven't actually banned campaign contributions or banned the practices that allow people to hoard immense wealth in the first place. You've simply banished a certain subset of the capitalist class that you personally don't like.
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Oct 22, 2018 05:20
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