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Anyone know when the expansion unlocks?
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Oct 27, 2018 07:09
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Organ Fiend posted:The solution is to just buff the overengined mechs and leave underengined mechs alone. Yeah gently caress it. Just make it a chassis quirk.
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Oct 27, 2018 07:17
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Yeah, if the undertonned, overengined stuff had initiative quirks to push them one tier up they would go from obvious trap choices to at least viable, or in a few cases pretty darn good.
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Oct 27, 2018 08:03
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A quirk system for mechs would be really grand, would go a long way making some of the weaker/niche mechs entirely more useful.
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Oct 27, 2018 08:09
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Back Hack posted:Anyone know when the expansion unlocks? 27th of November. One month from today.
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Oct 27, 2018 12:42
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Sky Shadowing posted:27th of November. One month from today. Ha, I thought it came out today. Totally misread the date. 
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Oct 27, 2018 13:36
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When I glanced at the date I figured that was what had happened. Sorry to crush all your hopes and dreams!
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Oct 27, 2018 13:38
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Xarbala posted:Yeah, if the undertonned, overengined stuff had initiative quirks to push them one tier up they would go from obvious trap choices to at least viable, or in a few cases pretty darn good. The charger goes on Initiative 3!
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Oct 27, 2018 15:19
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https://www.nexusmods.com/battletech/mods/319 https://github.com/CWolfs/MissionControl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGPrebHW0R0 New mod boasts allied lances, random map spawns, improved AI, more enemies, new objectives and improved map logic.
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Oct 28, 2018 03:31
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Rhymenoserous posted:Yeah gently caress it. Just make it a chassis quirk. I've posted about this before (as have others), but it doesn't even need to be something as arbitrary as a chassis quirk. Just tie it to movement speed. In the battletech tabletop game, all mechs fit into discreet movement brackets since all movement was hex based. The same is true in BATTLETECH, and necessarily will remain that way since BATTLETECH movement is also on a grid (unlike games like MWO, where engines can be replaced and allow for a whole spectrum of movement speeds). The battletech tabletop brackets for the mechs in BATTLETECH are as follows: 8/12: Spider, Locust, Cicada(ML/SL) 7/11: Jenner, Cicada(PPC) 6/9: Firestarter, Commando 5/8: Shadowhawk, Wolverine, Trebuchet, Dragon, Quickdraw 4/6: Panther, Hunchback, Centurion, Thunderbolt, Catapult, Grashopper, Cataphract, Orion, Black Knight, Victor, Battlemaster, Banshee 3/5: Awesome, Stalker, Highlander, King Crab, Atlas 2/3: Urbanmech The two numbers are walking/running speed. I'm not sure whether sprinting speed is based on running speed or if everyone is running, and sprint is something else. Jumping distance is also tied to these brackets: note how all of the 4/6s can only mount 4 JJs, the 5/8s can mount 5, etc. To account for later models of mechs that have different speeds than their original version (e.g. BNC 3S and 5S) or for the addition of engine mods/other things that change movement speed, you could just tie initiative phase to movement speed. If we kept the current 5 initiative brackets, you could assign mechs to initiative brackets like so: 5: Empty for MT pilots 4: 6/9 and faster 3: 5/8 2: 4/6 1: 3/5 and slower If you added brackets for granularity, and to give super fast mechs like the spider and locust (and some other speed demons that get added later on), you could do something like this: 8: Empty for MT pilots 7: 8/12 6: 7/11 5: 6/9 4: 5/8 3: 4/6 2: 3/5 1: 2/3 0: Empty for knockbacks (precision strike, juggernaut) Personally, I'd prefer something like this: 6: Empty for MT pilots 5: 8/12 and faster 4: 6/9 and 7/11 3: 5/8 2: 4/6 1: 3/5 and slower 0: Empty for knockbacks There are a couple of potential problems with this model. One, this nerfs slower mechs like the Centurion, Hunchback, Panther and Urbanmech. You could solve this by adding an arbitrary minimum initiative phase by weight class level (e.g. lights can't be below 4). I don't think this is necessary. The initiative phases of the Centurtion, Hunchback, and Panther do not make them viable in the late game: it doesn't make up for the massive armor/firepower deficit they have with heavies and assaults, and in a numbers (as opposed to tonnage/price) limited lance environment, the heaviest mechs always are the best. In their natural envionment (2 to 3 skull missions), one less initiative won't make them unviable. As for the urbanmenc ... as adorable and meme-worthy as it is, the Urbanmech was, is, and always will be garbage, so I wouldn't build mechanics around it. The other problem is with the 0 phase initiative. It allows the player to reserve past all of the AI's mechs, which gives the player an even greater advantage. This is easily solved by changing the AI to allow it to reserve. Amechwarriors AI mod (which is excellent) does this, and I believe that this was original functionality back in the beta (wasn't there myself), so I think they should add this back. Yes, I'm aware this is an Abry's drive through and I'd like five roast beef sandwiches for 5 dollars, with extra arby's sauce, please.
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Oct 28, 2018 15:59
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Could just make lighter mechs within the same initiative phase go first within that phase. E: preferably with using your movement bracket changes, but it could work by default somewhat too.
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Oct 28, 2018 18:02
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The thing is any change to give an advantage to fast medium and heavy mechs would also disadvantage slow light and medium mechs. Like the panther is bad as is. Imagine it having the same initiative as a heavy mech. BATTLETECH has done a pretty great job rebalancing things compared to table top imo. In this game the cicada is bad, but it was also bad in tabletop so it's hardly a solved problem elsewhere.
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Oct 28, 2018 21:21
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Yeah, there are some mechs that are always going to be trash, and others that are going to be situationally useful. The panther has a real niche as a kind of baby assault. When you're running around in lights and maybe the odd medium it's a real monster. Once you're running around in assaults its time is past, and that's OK. The way to keep lights and mediums viable into the end game is to implement tonnage restrictions for some missions. There is a mod that does this pretty well, with tonnage adding to your drop cost. Roll four assaults on a two star mission and you're going to end up paying out more than you make.
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Oct 28, 2018 21:29
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Ravenfood posted:Could just make lighter mechs within the same initiative phase go first within that phase. That can be penalizing those units. I would only give a bonus to faster units and no penalty to slower ones. (Also I'd rework jj tonnage)
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Oct 28, 2018 21:39
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Whats the best mod, these days?
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Oct 28, 2018 22:19
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Control Volume posted:Whats the best mod, these days? Vanilla, because it won't shatter apart at the seams in a month when the new expansion comes out and all the mods stop working.
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Oct 28, 2018 23:04
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Control Volume posted:Whats the best mod, these days? My own. Better AI But seriously, Mission Control looks like the biggest and most promising tool going forward if you want to make new or more challenging encounters with whatever tech level you like to mod to. On the simpler side, the JK variants and vehicles along with the Hangar of the Dispossessed and other mods that add new 'Mechs/variants in really fill in the gaps from this time period. The added uncertainty to the OPFOR is a huge bonus in making things fresh each mission. No more do you see a PPC and AC/5 fly in from beyond vis. Range in Phase 1 and automatically assume it's a BNC. The two big aggregate mods are RogueTech and Consolidated Company Commander that bundle in a ton of smaller mods. I'm on mobile, but can edit in links later. You should be able to Google most of those to their Nexus or PDX forums home page.
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Oct 28, 2018 23:08
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Best Friends posted:BATTLETECH has done a pretty great job rebalancing things compared to table top imo. In this game the cicada is bad, but it was also bad in tabletop so it's hardly a solved problem elsewhere. Yeah, the problems are that the original game has some very awkward 1980s design from the days when there was no problem that couldn't be solved without another resolution table. The big stair-steps of the L/M/H/A class system applied to the more continuous weight number is something that's busted from the start, it inherently will produce imbalanced results. In the TT game you try to fix that with a points-buy system, but points value is another thing that's impossible to balance if you let players have complete construction rules. They made the computer game with a promise to be authentic to TT and that's what they did. Applying quirks and balance patches eventually just makes it a different game, and if you're ok with that then just throw out the old rules altogether and make something better. Game designers have learned a lot in the last 30 years. Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah, there are some mechs that are always going to be trash, and others that are going to be situationally useful. And it was totally a thing that people would say "well some military vehicles in the real world are trash" back then too.
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Oct 29, 2018 01:06
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I started up a campaign with a random starting mech and they gave me an urban mech. And it lost its AC10.
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Oct 29, 2018 04:29
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Nice.
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Oct 29, 2018 04:33
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Man, I still don't know what the gently caress I'm doing w/r/t battlemech choice in battles. I have a vindicator, a centurion, a shadowhawk, the blackjack, some nice (IMO) Jenner configs, and a host of panthers/locusts/spiders etc. in storage. I still find myself outgunned on most jobs, particularly 2½ skulls and up. Am I just too poo poo at balancing ranges? (I recall this was the trick to the board game, keeping stand-offs mechs at stand-up range and tanking with up-armoured mechs) Or could I give my mechs better weapons? I haven't refitted, apart from replacing blown off poo poo, because I don't know what would work best.
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Oct 29, 2018 07:58
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Tias posted:Man, I still don't know what the gently caress I'm doing w/r/t battlemech choice in battles. Stock fits are almost all pretty bad, and when optimizating loadouts, for the most part specialization is the name of the game - you want to fit for the ranges you intend a mech to operate in, and stick it to those ranges to outgun the opfor. 'Bracket builds' means wasted tonnage when you're at your sweet spot range. AC2 are terrible. PPCs are bad. AC10s are bad. AC5 and LLs are okay. LRMs (except LRM10, don't use LRM10s) are good but should be boated if they will be used at all. AC20 is good but needs the mech built around it. MLs are good and reliable. SRMs are excellent. Stick with the good weapons and your mechs will be decent if nothing else. Support Weapons are excellent too but they enter a category of their own due to their limited range. Firestarters and Grasshoppers are mech assassins with their 6 support hardpoints. Put ammo in the legs - legs are about the toughest component if you're taking front-facing fire, and if they go from an ammo explosion you will not risk losing valuable rare weapon variants. Aim for around 12~14 shots for your ammo weapons. My rule of thumb is building towards a heat delta (alpha strike - total dissipation) of around 12~15. Any colder means you're not making use of your heat capacity, any hotter and you can't reliably sustain fire, requiring more thought to tactics to keep up damage with more efficient builds (ie diving into melee). Example good mech: The Menturion. CN9-A 3xSRM6 2xML 4xJJ 2 tons SRM ammo (one in each leg) 6 heatsinks 80 leg armor, max front armors, 25 rear armors (empty rear side torso can be dropped to 5), reminder split between the arms. This is the king dick medium. Fit the Shadowhawk similarly (with SRM6+6+4 plus a single medium laser, 1 heatsink) and that'll take care of your damage problems for the most part. Blackjack can be fit with 1xAC5 and 4 mlas or dedicated long-range support with 2xAC5 and that'll tidy you over till you pick another medium.
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Oct 29, 2018 08:33
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I restarted and found out the locust is a fine mech compared to the urbanmech
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Oct 29, 2018 09:42
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Control Volume posted:I restarted and found out the locust is a fine mech compared to the urbanmech delete this filth immediately
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Oct 29, 2018 09:48
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Conspiratiorist posted:Stock fits are almost all pretty bad, and when optimizating loadouts, for the most part specialization is the name of the game - you want to fit for the ranges you intend a mech to operate in, and stick it to those ranges to outgun the opfor. 'Bracket builds' means wasted tonnage when you're at your sweet spot range. That's the good stuff! Thanks. Can you elaborate on what you mean with brackets, heat delta and boating LRMs 
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Oct 29, 2018 11:11
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Tias posted:That's the good stuff! Thanks. Can you elaborate on what you mean with brackets, heat delta and boating LRMs Boating is sort of the opposite; cramming as many of the same kind of weapon into the same mech, most commonly SRMs, LRMs, or Medium Lasers. Missile boats are great at doing massive amounts of stability damage for easily knocking enemy mechs over. Heat delta I assume refers to how quickly your mech builds heat, as delta [something] means change of [something].
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Oct 29, 2018 11:31
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Okay, thanks. I've been getting some mileage out of multiple-shotting two or more mechs simultaneously with different bracket weapons, but it doesn't seem very effective. Would it be correct to assume heat delta is the ability to fire your entire loadout without overheating?
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Oct 29, 2018 11:42
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Might be. To be honest I haven't heard the term before.
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Oct 29, 2018 11:54
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It's an equation. Heat Generated by Firing Everything = A How much heat your 'Mech dissipates = D They're suggesting you shoot for: (A - D) ≈ 15 So you generate too much heat to alpha strike forever (heat neutrality means you're probably under-gunned) but won't generate so much heat that a hot map will push you straight into shutdown.
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Oct 29, 2018 12:11
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When in doubt just fill your mech with medium lasers and SRMs. When you're in missions try to focus on legging mechs for 2/3 salvage or repeated knockdowns for a pilot kill which will give you 3/3.
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Oct 29, 2018 15:57
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Started messing with Roguetech this weekend, and boy howdy is it a big departure from the base game now. Having access to stuff like Endo and Ferro is pretty sweet for making lights actually pack some firepower, not to mention easy access to pulse lasers to help overcome the CTH changes in the early game. Almost all the starting mechs are garbage for survivability though; I find I have to armor up pretty much everything in order to keep my lance from spending more time in the mech bay than in battle. Couple that with the fact that armor changes take a considerable amount of time now, your first month or so is just spent refitting if you don't want to deal with structure repairs constantly. Messed around with a couple different starts; turns out the Clan start is a trap since you're so hilariously overpowered with your overfit Stormcrow and starting lance that you're stuck with 2.5+ skull missions or higher. Having mission difficulty scale based on your best mech's value is kind of a weird way to do mission difficulty IMO. I'd enjoy it more if missions scaled based on the value of the world you're at and whether or not there's currently a conflict there. The dynamic map is pretty bad rear end. Being able to concentrate on planets and see tangible results is a nice touch; though the constant updates when worlds change hands gets annoying. It'd be better if it just scrolled by in the background like pilots coming out of the mechbay/repairs completing instead of a popup. I've finally gotten off the ground enough that I can handle most .5-1.5 skull missions without too much trouble at this point. My unlikely MVP has turned out to be a refit firestarter with max armor, a pair of arc welders, MASC, and all the melee enhancing items I can fit/find. Being able to one shot other lights with a well placed punch from behind is hilarious fun. At this point everyone else in the lance is just there to exploit back/flank shots on enemies that try to reposition to deal with the arc welding firestarter running amok in their ranks, some real Benny Hill poo poo. NatasDog fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 29, 2018 |
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Oct 29, 2018 16:09
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PoptartsNinja posted:It's an equation. I tend to build heat neutral myself if I can because of how many hot maps there are in the game.
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Oct 29, 2018 16:27
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deathbagel posted:I tend to build heat neutral myself if I can because of how many hot maps there are in the game. I tend to build massively hot but then charge into melee. If you need to, you can not fire some weapons while you cool down, but you can't do an overwhelming alpha strike unless you have the weapons on the mech.
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Oct 29, 2018 16:45
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ulmont posted:I tend to build massively hot but then charge into melee. If you need to, you can not fire some weapons while you cool down, but you can't do an overwhelming alpha strike unless you have the weapons on the mech. Yea, but if you learn to leverage a heat neutral lance correctly, then you can use the exact same tactics no matter what biome you are on. Later in the game, you can set up two lances and have one over-clocked for normal heat worlds and one heat neutral for hot worlds, but early on I prefer the one heat neutral lance.
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Oct 29, 2018 16:55
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Tias posted:Okay, thanks. I've been getting some mileage out of multiple-shotting two or more mechs simultaneously with different bracket weapons, but it doesn't seem very effective. PoptartsNinja got it. As for splitting fire, yeah it's not very effective, since barring some exceptions (taking an AC20 hunch or arm out of the equation) even a partially destroyed mech is still a comparable threat to a fresh one (sometimes even more dangerous if they lose their weapons and decide to melee!), so you want to focus your fire in order to really kill things dead. Multi-Shot also requires a commitment to a Gunnery skill combo, whereas Bulwark+Sensor Lock+Master Tactician is a much more broadly effective skill set up. Until skills get reworked with the expansion, at least. Ultimately there's only 3 kinds of really effective mech builds: - Knife fighters with multiple supports and medium lasers, namely the Firestarter and its bigger murdercousin the Grasshopper, whose tactics generally revolve around reserving until after the enemy, then diving in to get two unimpeded turns of firing which will cripple if not outright kill anything. - Close Range brawlers packing primarily SRMs, as they're the most effective brawling weapon, supplemented with medium lasers or sometimes a Large Laser or AC5 as they're a reasonable way to add a little extra range without sacrificing efficiency. AC20 + ML mediums mechs are also effective, as is the AC20 + SRMs combo available to some heavies. - Long Range mechs filled to the brim with LRMs, going relatively light on armor to try and match the damage of close range builds. Their job is to shoot all day from out of range of the enemy or hiding behind terrain. Direct fire snipers (packing AC5s with perhaps a sole PPC mixed in) can also perform the role, but due to various factors end up being mediocre in comparison. Basically, missiles are king, and SRMs in particular just vomit obscene amounts damage, letting custom fits punch way above their weight compared to most stock loadouts. Seriously, a 3xSRM 1~2xMLas CN9-A or GRF-1N will floor any stock heavy. Now, going back to the list on my other post, Medium Lasers, Large Lasers, and AC5s are good weapons, and you can certainly do decent builds around them, but missiles are better, so whatever you're trying to do, a mech packing more missiles is going to be better at it. This also consequently translates into chassis with more missile hardpoints being objectively superior to their equivalent and sometimes higher tonnage kin. Another very important thing to watch out for when building mechs is their naked free space. For example, the 50 ton mechs (except the Trebuchet) have 31.5 tons available to fiddle with once fully stripped, while all the 55 toners only have 28 available. Why is that? Because the latter are faster mechs - their move distance is 140 instead of 120, and the bigger engine means they have less room for armor and equipment even if they're overall heavier mechs. And when looking at this particular stat is when we find out what mechs are just bad. IE the aforementioned Trebuchet, it's an overengined 50 tonner: it's got the same speed as the 55 tonners, but its payload is only 26.5 tons. Its initiative and inherent hit defense are the same as all mediums, so with a whole weight bracket having better stats (payload and structure), there's just no real reason to ever use it. Other stinkers include: Pretty much everything below 35 tons - they just don't have the tonnage to do anything useful without also putting the pilots at extreme risk. Panthers work like pocket mediums, but you start with 3 mediums already and get another one for free soon enough. The Cicadas have 6.5 tons and 14 tons free. Consider the Jenner has 13.5 tons and you'll see why this is a really bad deal. At 60 tons, Dragon and the Quickdraws have the same movement speed as the 55 tonners, but suffer from worse initiative, lose the inherent +1 evasion mediums have, and their jump jets are 1 ton instead of .5 tons. What do they gain for this? 29 tons vs 28 tons free. Don't even bother. The Victor (80), the Zeus (80), and the Battlemaster (85) all have the same speed (120) and available weight as the 75 ton Heavies (42.5 free), but at worse initiative due to their weight class. They barely even have a free weight advantage over the 65 tonners (39 free), so while not terrible if you nab one really early, they just aren't worth much considering what a boon superior initiative is. The Banshees are the true over-engined kings: 37.5 free tons at 120 move speed. Comedy fits only.
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Oct 29, 2018 17:05
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in conclusion, 4x king crabs is the ultimate lance now and forever
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Oct 29, 2018 17:09
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deathbagel posted:Yea, but if you learn to leverage a heat neutral lance correctly, then you can use the exact same tactics no matter what biome you are on. Later in the game, you can set up two lances and have one over-clocked for normal heat worlds and one heat neutral for hot worlds, but early on I prefer the one heat neutral lance. Really depends on the loadout too - a heat neutral melee Grasshopper is a waste (as it will alpha strike only sporadically and cool down when punching), a non-heat neutral LRM boat is a liability (as it wants to alpha strike every turn). So for me the question of heat neutrality mostly comes up for mid-range mechs, and those tend to spend enough time repositioning or finishing off wounded mechs (which don't require a full alpha) that they can afford to run a little hot.
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Oct 29, 2018 17:09
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deathbagel posted:Yea, but if you learn to leverage a heat neutral lance correctly, then you can use the exact same tactics no matter what biome you are on. Later in the game, you can set up two lances and have one over-clocked for normal heat worlds and one heat neutral for hot worlds, but early on I prefer the one heat neutral lance. When you build for 12~15 it means that on a hot biome you get 4 turns of sustained fire instead of the 5 you'd get on a neutral climate - the exact same tactics loop applies: once you're about to hit the red line you either shut off a single medium laser to continue firing at slightly reduced effectiveness, or take a turn to melee/guard and drop the heat back down then resume full firepower shooting. Either approach is objectively (mathematically provable!) better than building heat neutral, since heat is a resource that translates directly to tonnage, so any heat neutral mech is straight up 4~5 tons underweight. fezball posted:Really depends on the loadout too - a heat neutral melee Grasshopper is a waste (as it will alpha strike only sporadically and cool down when punching), a non-heat neutral LRM boat is a liability (as it wants to alpha strike every turn). Even LRM boats should generate some heat, since delivering more damage during the first 5~6 turns of combat is more valuable than continuous-but-reduced firepower throughout their entire ammo stock. Generally speaking, you'll also run out of targets after 4 or 5 turns, so you can cool off in the break between engagements. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Oct 29, 2018 |
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Oct 29, 2018 17:20
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Tias posted:Man, I still don't know what the gently caress I'm doing w/r/t battlemech choice in battles. I'm at the same point as you are (exact mechs) in the base game and am just cruisin the galaxy doing 1.5 skulls until i can get a couple more 55 tonners. 2-2.5 skull missions are all shadowhawk/griffin/wolverines or even an Orion, all full armored and are just too spooky to do on the reg without costing locations and components For context I've got ~440 hrs played, mostly Roguetech, went back to vanilla after the latest patch broke my saves
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Oct 29, 2018 17:24
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| # ? May 15, 2024 23:17 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:When you build for 12~15 it means that on a hot biome you get 4 turns of sustained fire instead of the 5 you'd get on a neutral climate - the exact same tactics loop applies: once you're about to hit the red line you either shut off a single medium laser to continue firing at slightly reduced effectiveness, or take a turn to melee/guard and drop the heat back down then resume full firepower shooting. I will admit I do run LRM boats a bit hot and when I had a Grasshopper I it also was built hot, but since it was a hit and run mech it didn't matter. I prefer to brawl however and choose consistent sustained fire instead of having to shut off weapons later in the fight (though I still have to on hotter biomes) I'm not saying my way is better than min/maxing heat gain like you do, I'm just saying that I've never lost a mech to anything other than a random headshot in this game, so there's really no need to min/max and I like to be lazy whenever I can.
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Oct 29, 2018 17:38
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