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LRADIKAL posted:Looking at the steam hardware survey, probably the "sweet spot" for relevance of gamers is between a GTX 970 and a 1070. Seems like a 1080 is a decent thing to benchmark as well. Past that, things start getting real "hardcore" niche. Adding to this, a vast majority of gaming takes place at resolutions at or below 1080p. I was gifted a 970; it's not so great for compute, but it can run most games with high settings in HD and, if you are willing to tweak some knobs, 2k as well. I don't have many titles, but the only one it can't handle is the great disappointment that is dawn of war 3. I bought a used 1080 as it will be better for my needs. Were the only concern entertainment, for a very occasional gamer the 970 is fine.
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Oct 27, 2018 23:22
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Re: 9900/9700k overclocking, some posters on overclocking forums noticed that Z390 seems to have a indicated -0.1V offset compared to Z370, so setting 1.3V in the BIOS feeds 1.4V to the CPU. The fact that the power consumption and temps of a 9900k on Z390@1.3V and Z370@1.4V are identical seems to confirm this. This may be fixed via a BIOS update later but i‘d be extra careful with voltages over 1.3 for now.
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Oct 27, 2018 23:52
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I've been keeping voltage at auto for my 8700K on my MSI Z370 board. In the past I've always set it manually, but it never goes above 1.32v and it stays low when I'm not at load, which I like. Is there any reason to set it manually? It's pretty much the easiest OC I've ever done.
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Oct 27, 2018 23:59
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il serpente cosmico posted:I've been keeping voltage at auto for my 8700K on my MSI Z370 board. In the past I've always set it manually, but it never goes above 1.32v and it stays low when I'm not at load, which I like. Is there any reason to set it manually? It's pretty much the easiest OC I've ever done. What you want for a 24/7 overclock on Z370 is usually adaptive mode, which is basically the same as what the CPU would do at stock settings, except you can optionally add extra voltage for turbo clocks and optionally set an offset to the entire voltage range. Manual mode (fixed vcore for all frequencies) is for extreme overclocking only. If you're using automatic voltage regulation with no offsets and you're stable at a frequency you're happy with at a safe voltage and temperature, you don't really need to do anything more. You could maybe use the offset to lower the voltage some more if you like, but that's it.
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Oct 28, 2018 00:10
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LRADIKAL posted:Looking at the steam hardware survey, probably the "sweet spot" for relevance of gamers is between a GTX 970 and a 1070. Seems like a 1080 is a decent thing to benchmark as well. Past that, things start getting real "hardcore" niche. Adding to this, a vast majority of gaming takes place at resolutions at or below 1080p. Hell, I've got a 1060 too. I can't believe I'm the only one who can afford to buy a beefier video card, but just refuses to pay over $300 on a video card out of stubbornness.
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Oct 29, 2018 23:24
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Hell, I've got a 1060 too. I can't believe I'm the only one who can afford to buy a beefier video card, but just refuses to pay over $300 on a video card out of stubbornness. I'm kind of in the same boat and these exponentially gradual price increases are slightly worrying. I've gotten 6+ years out of my 3570k at this point with just a single GPU upgrade from a 7850 when I built the system to a 970 a few years back. Now I'm struggling between holding onto this setup to see if I can make it last another generation or two. It's either that or getting a 9600k build now(keeping the 970) and seeing if I can stretch that another 6-7years with another GPU upgrade somewhere down the line. It's all about that bang for your buck budget building imo.
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Oct 30, 2018 01:29
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On the upside, the 2080Ti makes the 9900K seem like a bargain. I could go build a machine with both of these right now, it wouldn't make a big dent in my budget and there's no one to stop me. They aren't even that bad in terms of bang per buck (at least non-Ti) but... meh. I'm milking my Ivy Bridge and 1070 for a bit more.
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Oct 30, 2018 11:28
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100% Dundee posted:I'm kind of in the same boat and these exponentially gradual price increases are slightly worrying. I've gotten 6+ years out of my 3570k at this point with just a single GPU upgrade from a 7850 when I built the system to a 970 a few years back. Now I'm struggling between holding onto this setup to see if I can make it last another generation or two. It's either that or getting a 9600k build now(keeping the 970) and seeing if I can stretch that another 6-7years with another GPU upgrade somewhere down the line. It's all about that bang for your buck budget building imo. I'm also in this boat. about six and a half years on my 3570k, and replaced my 560ti with a 970 almost 4 years ago. Coupled with a 1440p144hz i'm really feeling the upgrade itch. My PSU is out of warranty now (lesson learned: 10 years next time) so the itch/incentive to upgrade is getting serious, but deciding what to get is hard, and i'm too cheap to simply toss money at "get the best"
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Oct 30, 2018 12:05
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Phosphine posted:I'm also in this boat. about six and a half years on my 3570k, and replaced my 560ti with a 970 almost 4 years ago. Coupled with a 1440p144hz i'm really feeling the upgrade itch. My PSU is out of warranty now (lesson learned: 10 years next time) so the itch/incentive to upgrade is getting serious, but deciding what to get is hard, and i'm too cheap to simply toss money at "get the best" Yeah the itch is getting to me as well. Both of my monitors are only 1920x1200 so I don't have the extra resolution to push yet and none of the games I really play currently need much horsepower, but there are some newer games that I've held off purchasing due to my current setup. I've also been having ever compounding issues with my motherboard over the last year or so, random crashes, networking issues have started popping up, onboard sound issues have started popping up, all of my front panel connectors have been dead for years etc. I'm not even entirely sure its the motherboard since I haven't really bothered troubleshooting, it could definitely be my power supply or my case. I wish it was easier to find some mini-itx boards for older chips like this. If I could find something that definitely would work good and relatively cheap I would 100% rebuild this PC into a mini-itx HTPC for my living room or something and do a full upgrade.
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Oct 30, 2018 12:23
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mobby_6kl posted:On the upside, the 2080Ti makes the 9900K seem like a bargain. They’re objectively bad in terms of bang per buck, what you smoking? More power to you though if you want to buy them.
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Oct 30, 2018 13:27
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Not really though? Except for purely gaming when a 9700 or 8700 would give up only a bit of performance.  The fits are just eyeballed of course but both seem to be clearly in line with the most other CPUs and GPUs if we ignore the delays and shortages for a moment.
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Oct 30, 2018 14:19
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mobby_6kl posted:Not really though? They're bad in the expectations/normal sequence of tech advancement, though, in that they merely extend the already existing (and for GPU's, very long in the tooth) trend line versus getting you more performance for your dollar like you usually do when you jump up a generation. So it's really more about what your perspective is on it, rather than it being "objectively" one thing or another. At least on the GPU side there's the prospect of DLSS and such that might make them more "worth it" as more games implement it, which is something.
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Oct 30, 2018 14:35
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The value is much better with deep learning research or developers trying to work on ray tracing features in the future. It seems fairly clear to me that nVidia has aimed with this release not for even high end gamers but people basically insensitive to consumer budgeting. There’s also a possibility that nVidia is expecting to simply sell a lot of old stock 1080 and 1070 cards to make them more accessible for gamers today mostly on 1060 cards.
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Oct 30, 2018 14:35
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necrobobsledder posted:The value is much better with deep learning research or developers trying to work on ray tracing features in the future. It seems fairly clear to me that nVidia has aimed with this release not for even high end gamers but people basically insensitive to consumer budgeting. There’s also a possibility that nVidia is expecting to simply sell a lot of old stock 1080 and 1070 cards to make them more accessible for gamers today mostly on 1060 cards. I think you're half right: to me it seems like a prime-the-pump release to get developers on board with DLSS and tensor-enabled functions, even though it means that this generation is therefore not quite as attractive as it otherwise could be. It also plays into the expectations that the 20-series will be a short generation--recoup some of your investment costs on the super-early adopters willing to pay silly dollars, then move to the 21-series with better yields (presumably) and better price:performance ratios that will be more attractive to most customers. The price gaps between the 1060/1070/1080 are still large enough (and will likely remain as such) that I don't see a whole lot of people with 1060's bothering to step up. 9900k seems kinda similar to me; a stop-gap for those with deep pockets while Intel keeps working on the actual next gen product that more of us will want/be able to afford.
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Oct 30, 2018 14:50
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If the 1070 starts to hit about $200 in the used market and sufficient supplies in all major gaming markets we may start seeing some more adoption of the past generation. As much as GPU performance stagnated for years, the price increases have at least given some material gains. This is obviously the opposite of what we’re seeing in the CPU market from Intel’s offerings. The differences to me between nVidia and Intel to me is that AMD is still nowhere near the stats of nVidia in the high end of the market where you can charge high margins and has near zero relevance for commercial machine learning research (cryptocurrency investments primarily working in AMD’s favor was always about price-hash performance rather than absolute performance). This is a difficult spot but can work as long as compute / gaming is about mass growth and volume over raw margins and this is working more in AMD’s favor over time.
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Oct 30, 2018 15:03
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Like I have droned on about in the GPU thread, if you are willing to buy a card that was very likely used for mining, a 1070ti can be had for $250. Not a bad deal. Other cards popular with miners are being dumped as well. DrDork posted:9900k seems kinda similar to me; a stop-gap for those with deep pockets while Intel keeps working on the actual next gen product that more of us will want/be able to afford. You may be waiting awhile. Intel's 10nm may be a dog of the same breed as GF's 32nm. Intel prices as they do because they can and they are selling everything they can fab at 14nm. Then again, no one really knows the condition of TSMC's 7nm; with GF opting out of the 7nm race, it's not like AMD (and Apple) are in the clear. AMD is less dependant on monster dies for server, so they have that going for them at least if 7nm has growing pains.
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Oct 30, 2018 20:01
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Oct 30, 2018 20:14
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Yudo posted:You may be waiting awhile. Intel's 10nm may be a dog of the same breed as GF's 32nm. Intel prices as they do because they can and they are selling everything they can fab at 14nm. Yeah, unfortunately you are most likely right. My big hope is I can keep riding my 5820k@4.3 into the bright sunset for the next several years.
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Oct 30, 2018 20:29
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sincx posted:Keller really hit a home run with the modular Zen design. "Same die for server and desktop" really simplifies a lot of things. It also cuts down on the number photomasks they need. Photomasks cost is increasing exponentially with each node shrink (as it scales with all the extra multi patterning steps), and are already well into the hundreds of millions. AMD doesn't have the cash for it, though I don't think Intel uses a lot of different masks at this point either. It is a part of the reason that 32nm and 28nm aren't going anywhere for less performance intensive applications. DrDork posted:Yeah, unfortunately you are most likely right. My big hope is I can keep riding my 5820k@4.3 into the bright sunset for the next several years. I am using a 4770k at stock. It has been something of a serviceable disappointment. I'm holding out until DDR5 (regardless of how little difference it may make) just to have "the" platform for the next 5 or so years. So 2020 will be exciting for me! Yudo fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Oct 30, 2018 |
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Oct 30, 2018 20:50
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Yudo posted:I am using a 4770k at stock. It has been something of a serviceable disappointment. Why not oc? I got a free 20% performance boost on my 3770k from stock with very little effort.
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Oct 30, 2018 21:24
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Yeah, I got my 2500k up to 4.0 with stock voltages and 4.4 with a bump to 1.3v which is a little toasty but inside spec
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Oct 30, 2018 21:41
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My de-lidded 4770k has been sitting at 4.6ghz on a 120mm AIO for like 6 years now at 1.28 volts or so. Never goes over 76c. De-lidding felt dicey at the time, but I re-did the liquid metal a year ago and it hadn't changed much at all. The paste was in far worse shape.
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Oct 30, 2018 22:35
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I sent an email to the Iceman Die Guard people and they are working on a direct die cooling support frame for the 9900K (sounds like the existing 6700K/7700K/8700K frame does not fit). Prepare your wallets for... $30 direct die cooling. Once you can get the lid off 
Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 07:14
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And perilously scrape off the sTIM.
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Oct 31, 2018 07:26
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2018 07:31
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Yeah that generation is still very solid for a lot of purposes. I'm using an X3440 in my home NAS, an X5660 @ 4.56GHz/1.35V as my primary gaming desktop, and dual X5670s at work in a Windows workstation/Hyper-V sandbox. It wouldn't be that hard to replace them with comparable and cheap newer chips, but the cost of DDR4 still makes the whole enterprise unattractive without a specific motivator (especially for the workstation with 48GB of ECC RDIMMs) and they're just new enough to still get the Smeltdown fixes.
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Oct 31, 2018 14:55
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Yeah, still running a Nehalem in my fileserver and it's perfectly adequate there. My thinkpad W510 with a 720QM seems to have died unfortunately - it's started hanging at the POST screen, can't even get into BIOS. Dunno if it's a dead RAM stick or what but I suspect the board may finally be toast.  Was a real nice basic laptop apart from the ancient Tesla discrete graphics, the next gen up was where you got Kepler and switchable graphics for power saving.Thinking of replacing it with something like the Teclast F7, 12" 1080p IPS with a quad-core Atom, then throw linux on it. But I'm trying to wait for something with Gemini Lake so I get native H265 Main10 decode. Asus had one that I was eyeing a while ago. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 17:25
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zer0spunk posted:Why not oc? I got a free 20% performance boost on my 3770k from stock with very little effort. BangersInMyKnickers posted:Yeah, I got my 2500k up to 4.0 with stock voltages and 4.4 with a bump to 1.3v which is a little toasty but inside spec Dr. Fishopolis posted:My de-lidded 4770k has been sitting at 4.6ghz on a 120mm AIO for like 6 years now at 1.28 volts or so. Never goes over 76c. De-lidding felt dicey at the time, but I re-did the liquid metal a year ago and it hadn't changed much at all. The paste was in far worse shape. Thanks for the feedback. I have OC'ed it in the past and I may reapply a modest OC again. Haswell is hard to work with: between the TIM (and I don't want to delid at the moment) and integrated voltage regulator, Haswell is hot and power thirsty under load relative to Ivy Bridge. Performance has been "good enough" for along time; it is only been this last year where I have had some compute stuff where more would be better, and in many ways I have addressed that buying a Nvidia 1080, a compute monster compared to my old 970 and currently a steal on Ebay. Nehalem is part of the reason I never really bothered with OCing Haswell: OCing Nehalem was fun and more necessary due to still not quite being "good enough" for some applications. Plus you could get away with crazy poo poo and not set your PC afire. Between the process shrink, the FIVR, and TIM, the thrill was gone with Haswell.
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Oct 31, 2018 19:37
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BIG HEADLINE posted:And perilously scrape off the sTIM. I'm just gonna pay the $60 Silicon Lottery charges. On the bright side with direct shipping you don't pay sales tax to send it to them (they're in TX iirc) so it ends up being a wash.
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Oct 31, 2018 19:47
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Not going for the edge can still give you a lot while keeping temperatures checked. I only run my Haswell at 4.3GHz because it keeps temperatures under 70C, 4.7GHz seems possible but gets to 90C overnight and I haven't needed more performance yet. Intel only started pushing stock speeds close to overclocked speeds once AMD got competitive.
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Oct 31, 2018 19:50
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article on turbo power limits with decent data https://www.overclockers.at/articles/a-messy-situation-intels-stock-profile-and-power-limits
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Oct 31, 2018 22:32
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Interesting that the default Intel settings don't have any AVX offset; given the variable impact of those (bit manipulation vs. heavy FMA) throttling based off of current/thermal limits seems a lot more elegant than a hard offset (even one that is variable depending on the operations performed).
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Nov 1, 2018 00:57
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craig588 posted:Not going for the edge can still give you a lot while keeping temperatures checked. I only run my Haswell at 4.3GHz because it keeps temperatures under 70C, 4.7GHz seems possible but gets to 90C overnight and I haven't needed more performance yet. Intel only started pushing stock speeds close to overclocked speeds once AMD got competitive. Fiddling with my Cpu, a lot depends on how one quantifies stability. I would like to keep it at 4.3 ghz; however some stresstests are fine at a modest 1.15 volts and keep it under 70c while other poo poo the bed immediately. I wouldn't really care save that as I approach 1.25v heat gets out of control--I don't have much wiggle room and frankly I am not asking for much. On how well I did in the silicon lottery, temperature makes it challenging to to ascertain and makes stability harder to test.
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Nov 1, 2018 07:54
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I must have gotten a "bad" 2500K because it only goes to 4.2GHz@1.3v and won't go any higher no matter what I do. I tried 4.3GHz at up to 1.4v and it still flakes in Prime95 after about six hours.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:38
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Prime 95 for six hours isn't too bad... You might be fine for everything else. Yes, 4.2 it's below average. Cooling, motherboard or RAM could be the real issues though.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:53
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spasticColon posted:I must have gotten a "bad" 2500K because it only goes to 4.2GHz@1.3v and won't go any higher no matter what I do. I tried 4.3GHz at up to 1.4v and it still flakes in Prime95 after about six hours. To echo the above comment, prior to Haswell MBs were perhaps more important than the silicon lotto. Also a 32nm chip can take (and will likely need) more voltage for the same clocks as a 22nm part. For example, Prime95 on an oc'ed haswell can create a new star much past 1.2v; if you can manage 6 hours of it without anything melting I'd say you're good. Alot depends on the test. Aida64 or a short lapack run may be fine, but occt or prime95 will bsod. Just consider your tempratures, use case and what you are willing to accept. That said, even if you did machine learning or stats on large data (i.e. an application of lapack), real world use is generally less cpu intense than synthetic.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:26
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Yup, my Conroe E6320 was a terrible overclocker, but the culprit was the crappy Abit motherboard I was using. I ended up swapping it for a higher quality MSI board and I got much better results. The Abit was only able to get a a couple hundred extra MHz out of the CPU, but the the MSI was more in line with the standard expectations of the time. I bet the mobo is the culprit. My 2500k hit 4.5 at 1.33v with a good but not top of the line air cooler. il serpente cosmico fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 19:57
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Yudo posted:Nehalem is part of the reason I never really bothered with OCing Haswell: OCing Nehalem was fun and more necessary due to still not quite being "good enough" for some applications. Plus you could get away with crazy poo poo and not set your PC afire. Between the process shrink, the FIVR, and TIM, the thrill was gone with Haswell. Haswell is definitely one of the trickier overclocks, but it wasn't actually much of a hassle after the de-lid process. FIVR is weird, especially on Haswell where it'll happily let you blow up your chip with seemingly reasonable settings, but it was the first time I was able to get a VID offset OC working properly, which is nice because it keeps the power saving features somewhat intact. It's a good thing to learn though because it's basically modern OC technique without the training wheels.
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Nov 1, 2018 20:55
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il serpente cosmico posted:Yup, my Conroe E6320 was a terrible overclocker, but the culprit was the crappy Abit motherboard I was using. I ended up swapping it for a higher quality MSI board and I got much better results. The Abit was only able to get a a couple hundred extra MHz out of the CPU, but the the MSI was more in line with the standard expectations of the time. My motherboard is an MSI P67A-G45 and my CPU cooler is one of those Hyper 212 clones. But I'm going to try to build a new system end of this year or early next year so this system just needs to last until then. spasticColon fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 20:59
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Can anyone link to an idiot-proof Haswell OC guide? I’m in the same boat where I’m waiting on AMD 7nm to see what happens and I would like to give OC’ing a try to squeeze some extra FPS out of my system until then. Was planning to just pick up a Hyper 212 Evo or similar tier air cooling solution. Luckily I bought the 4670K so I can actually OC it, I think because the no-OC proc wasn’t in stock at my Micro Center at the time.
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Nov 1, 2018 21:14
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