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Over Easy posted:that's warmer but Gillum and Beto could have been better for sure I'm not arguing that Beto and Gillum were the best poo poo ever or anything but they had charisma and empathy in a way that somebody like Manchin couldn't even dream of. I do think that if Gillum specifically had spent every day from when he won the primary talking about Medicare for All he'd be Governor of Florida tho. 
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Nov 7, 2018 23:38
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not arguing that Beto and Gillum were the best poo poo ever or anything but they had charisma and empathy in a way that somebody like Manchin couldn't even dream of. Except Beto and Gillum lost, and Manchin won, so how is this not disproving your argument
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Nov 7, 2018 23:38
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Radish posted:If you aren't interested in fixing our disgusting and predatory medical system (and access to care is not doing anything), you have no business leading the party. It's really that simple since if the President can't use their position to advocate for it, it will not happen by itself. Saying "it's not the right time" or whatever is the cowardly way of saying you have no intention of ever supporting it until all the work is done by someone else like how the Democrats we're dragged to supporting gay marriage by the log cabin Republicans and courts. The best way to think about this is to just compare MfA with some other major historical social justice issue. You'd probably (correctly) think that someone hem-hawing about how it's okay for a presidential candidate to not support desegregation* because it wouldn't be able to pass through Congress is a racist. The same applies to someone who is not only okay with a politician not supporting a policy that provides people would should be a basic right (healthcare), but willing to prefer them over one who does. Those actions are only consistent with someone who just doesn't really give a poo poo (or opposes the policy in question, but I'm being generous in my assumptions). * of course de facto segregation still exists, which is just yet another grotesque injustice that no one is doing jack poo poo to really address
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Nov 7, 2018 23:38
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Squalid posted:I find this statement very strange. Being “leftist” is about the kind of government you believe should exist. Whether you think bad Republican politics come from ignorance or malice shouldn’t have any bearing on your status as a leftist. That’s fair, I was assuming we were using the wider definition of “leftist” that is broadened to mean “left of center.” If we’re using the stricter definition of leftist, then going back to oocc’s post it’s even clearer that there is a large chunk of Democratic supporters that are pro-capitalism and believes we don’t need a revolution in America. There isn’t agreement on within the party or the base about the course of the future of our economy or government. So honest democratic supporters can stand on both sides of the divide and are capable of articulating well reasoned opinions about why or why not the defeat of capitalism and its puppet government is required.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:39
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Z. Autobahn posted:Except Beto and Gillum lost, and Manchin won, so how is this not disproving your argument And Manchin not only won but won in a blow out.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:39
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J.A.B.C. posted:Sorry, was doing boring Army stuff and couldn't have my phone. What did I miss? Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is president now.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:39
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sean10mm posted:It's absolutely legit to bash the Democrats for blowing their economic credibility with people with triangulating third way bullshit, but if you think say rural Tennessee would break blue if only Democrats would push harder for the little guy then just LOL. Socialism only sells in a lot of these places when it's Whites Only. As much as the Democratic record on civil rights is inadequate, a lot of these rural voters want to roll back to Jim Crow tier "keep them in their place" poo poo. if you immediately assume that you can't win these people without appealing to racism, you've trapped yourself into candidates like donnelly. actually pushing hard in red areas would be a much better start than just assuming they're unreachable.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:39
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Mostly the social ones. Anything to do with trans rights, that benefits minorities. There's also a lot of regulation hate. Country folk do not like being told that they can't do something. The gun issue is also part of it. I really strongly feel like the gun issue is lost and the democrats need to drop it for 10-20 years. Let that be worked out at the local and state levels. National dems should not touch it. I hate to say it but I agree with you vis a vis gun control. If Dems have to drop something from their list I'd much rather it be that than racial justice, etc. I think solving some of our economic problems would help with gun violence anyways. I also think liberals and leftists should be arming themselves right now.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:39
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Lycus posted:Yeah, that was supposed to be a good year. And if things go well in 2020, that class will be up again under a Democratic president, unfortunately. If things go well we won't even have a Democrat in the white house, if you catch my drift
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Nov 7, 2018 23:39
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Z. Autobahn posted:Except Beto and Gillum lost, and Manchin won, so how is this not disproving your argument Manchin won in West Virginia but that's mostly down to machine politics. If you cloned Manchin I do not think he would've won Donnelly or McCaskill's seats.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:40
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KickerOfMice posted:I often roll my eyes at succdems chat, but yeah, Collins is an absolute boner. She's a republican, so low expectations are normal
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Nov 7, 2018 23:40
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Maybe we should just have two United States. A red one and a blue one.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:40
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not arguing that Beto and Gillum were the best poo poo ever or anything but they had charisma and empathy in a way that somebody like Manchin couldn't even dream of. If he had a more energetic sitting Senator to campaign with he'd also probably have fared a bit better. Bill Nelson is a xanax in human form.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:40
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Yeah, the Democrats are going to need 4 seat minimum, maybe 5. It is a real push, otherwise jack poo poo is going to happen.
Ardennes fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Nov 7, 2018 |
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Nov 7, 2018 23:40
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So Tom McArthur is also going to lose. The guy who revived ACA repeal and famously got yelled at at the town hall.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:41
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Z. Autobahn posted:Except Beto and Gillum lost, and Manchin won, so how is this not disproving your argument And Donnelly, Heitkamp, and McCaskill lost, so how is this not disproving your counterpoint Some Centrist Dems lost and some won. Some Progressive Dems lost and some won.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:41
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Hellblazer187 posted:I hate to say it but I agree with you vis a vis gun control. If Dems have to drop something from their list I'd much rather it be that than racial justice, etc. So you think that Dems need to drop the most popular of their positions, huh?
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Nov 7, 2018 23:41
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Here’s my gun control plan. Either nobody has em, including the military and police, or everyone has em
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Nov 7, 2018 23:41
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Mostly the social ones. Anything to do with trans rights, that benefits minorities. There's also a lot of regulation hate. Country folk do not like being told that they can't do something. The gun issue is also part of it. I really strongly feel like the gun issue is lost and the democrats need to drop it for 10-20 years. Let that be worked out at the local and state levels. National dems should not touch it. They can go gently caress themseleves and take their own medicine for tlling millions of more people in non poo poo holes what to do. gently caress them hope they like ODing on an alter to Donnie.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:41
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't think it's the policies that they don't like, it's the candidates. There's too many shitlords like Donnelly or Manchin that are liars and cheats and not enough people like Beto or Gillum that even attempt to connect with people on a human level. Rural Texas utterly rejected Beto despite all his outreach.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:42
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The Senate is screwed until like 2026, so nuts to that. Good job, 2016 Dems.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:42
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Z. Autobahn posted:Except Beto and Gillum lost, and Manchin won, so how is this not disproving your argument ....it really obviously doesn't disprove it? Those aren't analogous situations. Manchin was an incumbent, and it is very well-known that incumbency conveys huge benefits to a candidate. edit: I mean, you can definitely argue that there's no way to know whether being more openly pro-MfA would have made the positive difference LK mentions, but you absolutely can't argue that Manchin proves, or even strongly suggests, that it wouldn't have.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:42
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Hellblazer187 posted:I hate to say it but I agree with you vis a vis gun control. If Dems have to drop something from their list I'd much rather it be that than racial justice, etc. So that we can take out jets and tanks and drones with our small arms fire when the war comes?
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Nov 7, 2018 23:42
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, 3-4 senate pickups isn't going to be good enough, the Democrats are going to need at least 5 minimum. It’s a good thing everyone likes Bernie and he will get the vote out
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Nov 7, 2018 23:42
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not arguing that Beto and Gillum were the best poo poo ever or anything but they had charisma and empathy in a way that somebody like Manchin couldn't even dream of. Yeah, if democrats ran on policies that are good (and also extremely popular in this case) they would win. We saw that Claire McCaskill got her shitlib rear end kicked to the curb while the state passed the minimum wage increase. If she would have embraced that poo poo instead of supporting decorous versions of trump's policies she may well have won. A lesson could be learned here potentially but I am not thinking so. edit: punctuation and spelling in the non-cspam forum
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Nov 7, 2018 23:42
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TyroneGoldstein posted:If he had a more energetic sitting Senator to campaign with he'd also probably have fared a bit better. Bill Nelson is a xanax in human form. Nelson got more votes than Gillum.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:42
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TyroneGoldstein posted:If he had a more energetic sitting Senator to campaign with he'd also probably have fared a bit better. Bill Nelson is a xanax in human form. Bill Nelson actually came slightly closer to winning his race though.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:43
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Lightning Knight posted:Manchin won in West Virginia but that's mostly down to machine politics. If you cloned Manchin I do not think he would've won Donnelly or McCaskill's seats. there's also the fact that manchin is just an out and out republican at this point. it's not a good model to win back red states if your objective is to protect minorities, abortion, or anything else. as i've said, i think more direct messaging and building up trust in red states again would help a lot more.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:43
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Fulchrum posted:So you think that Dems need to drop the most popular of their positions, huh? I thought that was M4A?
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Nov 7, 2018 23:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i'm always a bit dubious of these theories, but i guess if anywhere's going to do that successfully it's illinois. Got an article about that? https://www.counterpunch.org/2006/10/14/election-2006-the-fix-is-already-in/ quote:The first case is the Democratic primary race between Christine Cegelis and Tammy Duckworth in Illinois's 6th CD, a Republican District, which has elected the disgusting Henry Hyde from time immemorial. Then in 2004 Christine Cegelis, who is only mildly antiwar (1), ran as the Democrat with a grass roots campaign and polled a remarkable 44% against the hideous Hyde in her first run. It was not too long before Hyde decided to retire, and the field seemed to be open for Cegelis in 2006. Rahm intentionally ran Duckworth as a pro-war candidate against a "mildly antiwar" dem who was a cinch to win. And time has certainly proven her right on the issue of "staying the course" in Iraq!
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Nov 7, 2018 23:43
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Hellblazer187 posted:I hate to say it but I agree with you vis a vis gun control. If Dems have to drop something from their list I'd much rather it be that than racial justice, etc. It sucks to say out loud, but i fear it is true. Gun laws need to be kept off the national stage, and let them be state issues. The answer to every gun legislation question from national dems should be "that's a states rights issue, and we have no interest in national gun legislation." Focus on health care, rural infrastructure, anti-corruption, and financial regulations. That means MFA, massive local investment dollars, bring the full force of the DOJ down on white collar crime, and banks. If only we had a candidate to embody this mindset.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:43
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Condiv posted:if you immediately assume that you can't win these people without appealing to racism, you've trapped yourself into candidates like donnelly. Nah. I'm all for pushing Good Dems everywhere and not garbagemen, but you have to be realistic that if you're going to stick to your principles then some places will not be winnable in the short term. A depressing amount of rural american voters are not compatible with candidates that believe that black people are human beings. That's just an objective fact. I'm arguing you stick with your principles, in case that's not clear. Some places simply can't be won without pandering to race hate, so you have to accept the risk of losing them.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:44
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CubanMissile posted:So that we can take out jets and tanks and drones with our small arms fire when the war comes? Worked in Vietnam, and looks like it’s working in Afghanistan too
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Nov 7, 2018 23:44
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Hellblazer187 posted:I thought that was M4A? It wouldn't surprise me if gun control is more popular among the Democratic base than anything else because gun control is supported by people in urban areas who face chronic gun violence and that's the Democratic base.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:44
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Hellblazer187 posted:I thought that was M4A? No, its gun control. More popular by over 20%.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:45
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XyrlocShammypants posted:So Tom McArthur is also going to lose. The guy who revived ACA repeal and famously got yelled at at the town hall. Very good to see this scum go down. Only 1 fascist republican left in the NJ delegation.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:45
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CubanMissile posted:So that we can take out jets and tanks and drones with our small arms fire when the war comes? If and when society collapses, a firearm would be a useful thing to have. No, regular people are not going to beat the army but I really don't trust that anything resembling regular order will be part of our experience in say 2040.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:46
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Pollyanna posted:Maybe we should just have two United States. A red one and a blue one. splitting between urban and rural is infeasible (and isn't great for rural minorities) saying "whoops, guess your state is 55% republican, good luck with that, gently caress off" is horrific
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Nov 7, 2018 23:46
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Over Easy posted:Yeah, if democrats ran on policies that are good (and also extremely popular in this case) they would win. The problem is that GOP voters who approved of the minimum wage act viewed it as “more money for me”, an inherently Republican belief. They probably would have reconsidered if they were reminded that minorities would also get more money. Expect a “poo poo wages for browns” act to show up in the next 4~6 years when they realize it.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:46
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