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Not a Step posted:Dude knows what hes saying. He believes the government should run a balanced budget and that the national debt should be a priority. Uh... you know who else does? Bernie Sanders. Not just a priority, but one of the most important issues facing America. That kind of rhetoric doesn't really indicate anything. It is just one of the very popular political pablum that everyone uses like "common sense," "working across the aisle," "average American," and "getting things done" quote:Republicans in Washington, D.C. want to balance the budget by slashing Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, education and other federal programs that millions of Americans rely upon. quote:There are few things more creative than a state government in dire financial straits, which is to say most of them. States are well versed in all manner of financial chicanery, from simple accounting gimmicks to pushing off payments. These methods range from silly, such as New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie booking extra revenue after selling larger bonds than necessary, to the downright dangerous as states let infrastructure collapse. quote:We must continue to focus on the federal deficit, we must also be aware that there are other deficits in our society causing horrendous pain. There are deficits in jobs, deficits in infrastructure, deficits in income. Each of them are critical issues to securing America's future and none of them can be solved without solving the others. quote:One of the most important long-term issues facing this country is the national debt and the deficit. Repealing the Bush tax cuts would go a long way to achieving these critical goals that threaten the budget and economy of the United States. https://twitter.com/sensanders/status/228260970668118016?lang=en quote:It is not surprising that my Republican colleagues would be pushing legislation that would give tax breaks to the very rich, but I really do have a hard time understanding how they are prepared to vote for legislation that would increase the deficit by some $1.4 trillion. Washington doesn't have to tighten its belt when times are tough like the average working American. We here in Washington could learn a lot from the kitchen table of the average American family. quote:Meanwhile, states have often borrowed against the future proceeds from legal settlements, most famously the 1997 Tobacco Master Settlement won against cigarette manufacturers. Under Christie, the state of New Jersey has come close to selling off the entirety of the 1997 settlement to Wall Street investors. These acts cripple the government’s ability to cover future expenses, but hey, the government’s cash accounting doesn’t include those.
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Nov 9, 2018 01:53
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Sigh. Maybe I was wrong. Looking out for secret codes is exhausting. I shouldn't have made fun but goddamn it sounds insane. I'm not sure if I'm insane for being convinced or if I was insane before for not being convinced.
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Nov 9, 2018 01:53
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Fine. As soon as other politicians get on board with 'what if we made the rich pay taxes' then I will extend them the benefit of the doubt when they use rhetoric a thousand politicians before them have used to justify market based means tested solutions. Perhaps what Bernie has that others lack is credibility and authenticity. Until then though, Bernie Sanders remains the furthest right candidate I am willing to support.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Uh... you know who else does?
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Nov 9, 2018 02:11
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Hellblazer187 posted:Sigh. Maybe I was wrong. Looking out for secret codes is exhausting. I shouldn't have made fun but goddamn it sounds insane. I'm not sure if I'm insane for being convinced or if I was insane before for not being convinced. If you're conflicted 'depressed' might be a good compromise.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Uh... you know who else does? nowhere in that policy statement does he call for balancing the federal budget
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Nov 9, 2018 02:15
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The Muppets On PCP posted:nowhere in that policy statement does he call for balancing the federal budget The literal first quote says, "we must balance the budget." He also uses the terrible "government has to budget like a family" metaphor that every politician uses. The point of that metaphor is not spending more than you take in; aka balancing your budget.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:18
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the easiest way to balance the budget is take like 10% of the Overpriced Airplanes That Don't Work Fund and pay for everything easily
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Nov 9, 2018 02:19
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Not to mention that lowering the national debt is actually a good long-term idea in general. In 2020, our interest payments on the national debt will exceed what we spend on Medicaid.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Not to mention that lowering the national debt is actually a good long-term idea in general.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:25
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I was just reminded of how cool and good Ted Lieu is, but I think he was born in Taiwan so he can’t run for President. I also didn’t realize he’s from Ohio.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:26
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Hellblazer187 posted:Yeah, this is really a bizarre one. What do you mean, Gripweed? Why is access to healthcare bad? The relevant question here is "why not just say "people should have healthcare" or directly advocate for something that provides free* (at point of service) care (like in this case MfA)?" In the context of her current political situation, the phrase "access to healthcare" seems to basically be an ambiguous phrase used to avoid directly supporting MfA (that can also be used to describe pretty much any other healthcare policy, since even expensive healthcare can technically be "accessed" and the word "affordable" is subjective). Like, you can technically describe the status quo as one where "access to healthcare" exists, since the phrase is so incredibly subjective (to the point of almost being meaningless) and it's technically true that people can generally access healthcare, even if it bankrupts them in the process. So basically it's a contextual thing; "access to affordable healthcare" happens to be the go-to phrase used by Democrats who don't openly support MfA. The issue isn't that access is bad, but that they aren't talking about other things that are necessary (a key phrase should be "free at point of use"; "access" and even "affordable" can be twisted to mean almost anything). * or very low copay, though I personally think copays should be eliminated as well
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Nov 9, 2018 02:27
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VitalSigns posted:drat dude way to select quotes from Bernie that show the opposite of what you're asserting, you have a real knack for that (remember when you said a paper that showed job gains was proof of job losses lol) The assertion is that all politicians talk about the debt and deficit and that acknowledging that the national debt is a problem is not determination of someone's overall ideology. And that paper did say that jobs were lost. You just appear to not be familiar with economics terminology. It described a situation where jobs were lost in a sector, but the employment rate stayed static. The employment rate and employment composition of each sector of the economy are not the same.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:27
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Bernie Sanders also doesn't seem to think that racist people are racist, so that's fun.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:29
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twodot posted:Here's homework for you: compare the economic multiplier that SNAP spending has versus the interest rate US bonds carry. Here's some homework for you: Look up "diminishing returns" and how many dollars $23 trillion is. SNAP is a good economic multiplier overall. But you can't just spend $500 trillion a year on SNAP and generate infinite productivity.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:30
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The literal first quote says, "we must balance the budget." you're quoting an article from someone named cormac close writing for ourfuture.org and i was going by the first result googling those quotes which is a statement on sanders' congressional site that doesn't include any language about balancing the budget
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Nov 9, 2018 02:32
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Office Pig posted:If you're conflicted 'depressed' might be a good compromise. Well, that, yes. Extremely so. Dangerously so.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:33
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Ytlaya posted:The relevant question here is "why not just say "people should have healthcare" or directly advocate for something that provides free* (at point of service) care (like in this case MfA)?" In the context of her current political situation, the phrase "access to healthcare" seems to basically be an ambiguous phrase used to avoid directly supporting MfA (that can also be used to describe pretty much any other healthcare policy, since even expensive healthcare can technically be "accessed" and the word "affordable" is subjective). Like, you can technically describe the status quo as one where "access to healthcare" exists, since the phrase is so incredibly subjective (to the point of almost being meaningless) and it's technically true that people can generally access healthcare, even if it bankrupts them in the process. Even in the most generous single-payer systems there are some copays. Generally, there are very low or no copays for PCP visits, but non-generic prescriptions, specialists, and cosmetic consultations will usually have a $12-$60 copay depending on the country and specific situation. The U.K. found that overall quality of care increased when they added a 5 pound copay to walk-in visits because it discouraged constant visits from some patients over minor medical issues and allowed other patients to be treated faster and more efficiently.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:35
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Jaxyon posted:Bernie Sanders also doesn't seem to think that racist people are racist, so that's fun. He misspoke, then apologized for it: https://twitter.com/briebriejoy/status/1060620682030170113
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Nov 9, 2018 02:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Here's some homework for you: Look up "diminishing returns" and how many dollars $23 trillion is.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Here's some homework for you: Look up "diminishing returns" and how many dollars $23 trillion is. a post made by a holocaust denier; full of sound and fury, saying absolutely nothing it is neat to see nothing has changed since then, in the "appeal to some vague authority, toss off a bullshit non sequitur, consider the topic closed" sense Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 02:36
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:a post made by a holocaust denier; full of sound and fury, saying absolutely nothing If only, after strutting and fretting his hour upon the stage, LT2012 would be heard...no more. Out, out brief candle.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:38
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VitalSigns posted:drat dude way to select quotes from Bernie that show the opposite of what you're asserting, you have a real knack for that (remember when you said a paper that showed job gains was proof of job losses lol) lol he's not even selecting quotes, he's straight up fabricating them for example this line quote:It is not surprising that my Republican colleagues would be pushing legislation that would give tax breaks to the very rich, but I really do have a hard time understanding how they are prepared to vote for legislation that would increase the deficit by some $1.4 trillion. Washington doesn't have to tighten its belt when times are tough like the average working American. We here in Washington could learn a lot from the kitchen table of the average American family. is from a budget committee debate from last november. the last two sentences appear nowhere in the official transcript nor the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa9PasV0Qoc&t=240s The Muppets On PCP fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 02:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Even in the most generous single-payer systems there are some copays. Generally, there are very low or no copays for PCP visits, but non-generic prescriptions, specialists, and cosmetic consultations will usually have a $12-$60 copay depending on the country and specific situation. That's basically acceptable; it's just that once copays start rising over the equivalent of $20 USD it can act as a strong disincentive to go to the doctor. $5-10 is reasonable enough. Hellblazer187 posted:Then you didn't have access to it. What do you think the word means? He could mortgage his house and go into massive debt to buy the car, so he has access to it. That's a bit of an extreme example, but the point is that "access" can mean "you can get it, but it's super expensive." Even if someone says "access to affordable healthcare," "affordable" is a very wishy-washy word that is also used about Obamacare, and we know how that turned out. edit: In the case of this specific guy, any remaining doubts should have been enshrined with the "fiscal responsibility" stuff Cerebral Bore posted:You do know that absolute credulity and a complete lack of pattern recognition aren't things that you're supposed to be proud of, right? I think that's kind of harsh in this case; I can understand why someone might be baffled at the strong negative response to relatively benign-sounding language if they weren't already "plugged into" the rhetoric and discussions surrounding these topics. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 02:40
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twodot posted:Ok, idiot, the 23 trillion in debt already exists (ignoring that this figure is massaged to seem worse than it is), nothing will remove that other than defaulting (which in this case would involve the US government defaulting against itself because this figure is massaged), so the only thing that matter deficit spending. So long as SNAP spending outperforms US bond interest rates, it makes NO god drat sense to reduce the deficit. I never said "deficit spend into infinity", it's just obvious that caring about the deficit is totally absurd right now. Just look at the economic multiplier, look at the income where that diminishes, look at the current and future projected U.S. deficit, and then look at how much we could expand SNAP. Saying "we can't reduce the debt because SNAP has economic multipliers at certain income-levels and geographic areas based on current recipients" is not a fiscal policy. Periods of low unemployment, rising interest rates, and GDP expansion are exactly when you are supposed to be reducing the deficit. You don't want to reduce the deficit during economic downturns.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:41
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just look at the economic multiplier, look at the income where that diminishes, look at the current and future projected U.S. deficit, and then look at how much we could expand SNAP.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The assertion is that all politicians talk about the debt and deficit and that acknowledging that the national debt is a problem is not determination of someone's overall ideology. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:And that paper did say that jobs were lost. You just appear to not be familiar with economics terminology. It described a situation where jobs were lost in a sector, but the employment rate stayed static. The employment rate and employment composition of each sector of the economy are not the same. Lol no. People quitting low-paying jobs for higher-paying jobs and employers being unable to fill those open positions is not considered "jobs being lost" in economic terminology. You appear to think that a tight labor market and full employment means "jobs are being lost", or you're just lying because you get some weird kick out of trolling the thread.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:45
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Eric Swallwel is the guy that ran against Pete Stark's seat, who was legit great (also openly atheist). He comes across as another focus-grouped Bay Area politician to me.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:45
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I dont care , im done with bernie. I wash my hands of him
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Nov 9, 2018 02:48
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Internet Explorer posted:It's pretty loving LOL how easily you can tell people who have been involved in the fight for M4A and people who have not. Here's a hint: Those of us putting in the work for M4A and interviewing candidates, attending town halls, etc. - when we hear "access to healthcare" we know exactly what that means because it's a dog whistle for a cop out on M4A. A candidate will say that in a room full of people to dodge tough questions on M4A and everyone not in the know just nods their heads and goes "this person is good on healthcare!" I feel like these politicians are preying on peoples' good intentions. People are taught that part of "being a good person" is assuming the best in others, so they use ambiguous language that, interpreted positively, can be spun into almost anything the listener desires. That's why it's important to demand politicians be as explicit as possible. Anything else simply isn't holding them accountable. For better or worse, liberal politicians mostly seem to dislike directly lying, but they will absolutely use a bunch of language that is technically true but misleading/false in spirit. Internet Explorer posted:my eyes almost rolled out of my head I mean, to be fair that'd be a pretty good reason to be skeptical of Bernie Sanders if not for the fact that the man has a very long history of explicitly supporting the sort of policy in question. Not a Step posted:"Health care must be recognized as a right" covers it though. Access is important, because a right you can't exercise isnt much of a right, but you have to guarantee the right to health care first. 'Health care is a right' is good, 'access to health care is a right' is bad. To play devil's advocate, other Democratic 2020 hopefuls have also combined the "healthcare as a right" rhetoric with the "access" rhetoric. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 02:49
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like these politicians are preying on peoples' good intentions. People are taught that part of "being a good person" is assuming the best in others, so they use ambiguous language that, interpreted positively, can be spun into almost anything the listener desires. The funny part is that while this works just great on Democratic Party partisans whose tribalism pushes them to always assume the best of their team and read in what they want to hear, nobody outside the party without those my-team cognitive biases trusts or believes any of the bullshit circumlocutions they engage in to avoid promising anything in particular to anyone.
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Nov 9, 2018 02:54
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VitalSigns posted:Acknowledging the debt is a problem when you're giving handouts to the rich is different from saying the government has to live within its means (ie not knowing the government is capable of changing its means by raising taxes, or straight up printing money) The kitchen table metaphor is explicitly about living within your means. The original point wasthe assertion that thinking that the national debt and the deficit is "a problem" is determinate of your ideology. It's not and everyone complains about it in support or opposition of their preferred policies. And what economist would say that it is impossible for a sector to lose jobs during a tight labor market? Because the report you are talking about did not say that and the Bureau of Labor statistics definitely does not think that. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf If you really are confused and unfamiliar with the terminology, then check out the FRED encyclopedia and dictionary ( https://fred.stlouisfed.org/ ); it is a very good resource for laymen. If you are just saying it to try and save face, then there isn't really any point to us inflating the thread post count and making other people read through it.
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Nov 9, 2018 03:00
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Sweaty communist grandpa who still puts his foot in his mouth when dealing with racial issues is also a neoliberal? Now I've seen everything!
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Nov 9, 2018 03:02
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Gripweed posted:lol Kamala Harris is running the same scam Avenatti did. That's just part of ActBlue's platform. It is kind of dumb that this is a default feature, though. They also automatically give you the option to contribute part of your donation to their server costs. They actually advertise this as part of their "unique features" for why people should contribute to candidates through ActBlue instead of directly through a candidate's campaign. https://secure.actblue.com/features
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Nov 9, 2018 03:07
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That's just part of ActBlue's platform. It is kind of dumb that this is a default feature, though. They also automatically give you the option to contribute part of your donation to their server costs. Is it like some kind of referral bonus thing? Otherwise, it's weird that not only is Actblue getting a tipping option, but Harris is getting 50% of all the donations she's soliciting in Abrams' name.
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Nov 9, 2018 03:08
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The kitchen table metaphor is explicitly about living within your means. The original point wasthe assertion that thinking that the national debt and the deficit is "a problem" is determinate of your ideology. It's not and everyone complains about it in support or opposition of their preferred policies. No the original assertion was that saying the federal government has to "live within its means" reveals ignorance of how the federal budget works. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:And what economist would say that it is impossible for a sector to lose jobs during a tight labor market? Because the report you are talking about did not say that and the Bureau of Labor statistics definitely does not think that. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf You are illiterate or lying, I never said "sectors cannot lose jobs in a tight labor market" obviously it can, I said "people leaving low-paying jobs for better ones is not jobs being lost" which is what you claimed and is flat wrong. Unfilled vacancies in a sector is not the same as job losses in a sector. And nothing in the links you posted contradicts that so unless you want to clip some quotes I'm just going to assume it's your usual tactic of saying some bullshit, linking something, and lying about the contents of your link.
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Nov 9, 2018 03:13
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Majorian posted:He misspoke, then apologized for it: That doesn't address what he said: quote:“I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American,” Sanders told The Daily Beast, referencing the close contests involving Andrew Gillum in Florida and Stacey Abrams in Georgia. “I think next time around by the way it will be a lot easier for them to do that.” It was a dumb thing to say.
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Nov 9, 2018 03:13
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Every Democrat says stupid poo poo, and 2019 they will say even stupider poo poo to get attention.
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Nov 9, 2018 03:15
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Brony Car posted:Is it like some kind of referral bonus thing? Otherwise, it's weird that not only is Actblue getting a tipping option, but Harris is getting 50% of all the donations she's soliciting in Abrams' name. The idea is that giving through ActBlue instead of directly to a candidate's campaign is that ActBlue will create a "community" of small-dollar donors and allow smaller donors to easily make contributions to a wider variety of candidates. You can leverage small dollar donor contributions into something more impactful by having $11 million in contributions from small dollar donors spread out to multiple candidates. https://blog.actblue.com/ They also have a bunch of psychological and marketing features to increase donations like: - Saving payment information, so you can one-click donations to individuals or groups to increase "impulse" donations. - Social media aspects where you can communicate with people and they can see how much you've given. - People can make "groups" that spread donations out over multiple causes and candidates to attract like minded people. ActBlue was a huge thing in the Daily Kos-era for getting people involved and fundraising from small donors.
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Nov 9, 2018 03:16
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Obama mocked the disabled and got owned by Jay fuggin Leno for it.
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Nov 9, 2018 03:16
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