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JUST MAKING CHILI posted:This is a dumb argument. You’re basically saying that Hiltler is worse than Stalin because he was more efficient in his ethnic cleansing. They were both monsters that did a genocide. We don’t have to compare bodycounts. It's not a dumb argument and it's not a matter of efficiency or body count, it's a matter of intent and method. I'm not arguing that Stalin is not bad. I am saying that equivocating the two is literally a classic Nazi talking point used to minimize the war crimes of Nazi Germany. That is kind of important actually.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:26
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Lightning Knight posted:I really don't agree with this, and attempts to equivocate Hitler and Stalin is a Nazi talking point just so you know. Stalin was undoubtedly a lovely dictator who caused the deaths of millions due to his own incompetence, but Hitler organized the systemic industrialized slaughter of millions based on their identity or benign characteristics in a way that Stain has no direct equivalent to. Both sides, in fact, are not equally bad in that example. Other than, you know, the bourgeoisie. Or the German civilians on the way to Berlin. I don't doubt that fascists use Stalin to smear communism, because he's was loving terrible, man.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:26
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Chilichimp posted:I thought that was stupid too, turns out he just worded it weird. Clay didn't go to congress until 1811. How was it worded weird? Henry Clay was absolutely the most influential American politician between the signing of the Constitution and the outbreak of the Civil War. The War of 1812 happened in large part because of Henry Clay! JFC! Doesn't anyone learn history anymore?
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Nov 11, 2018 07:26
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Bottom Liner posted:I said they didn't rig anything because it's their own party and of course they're going to try and groom candidates to fall in line. I do care that the two party system is so poo poo but it's the reality we have to deal with. Bernie knew that the system was stacked against him going in but knew that he'd get a lot farther under the DNC umbrella than he'd ever get as an independent. So you're actually just making a semantic argument about what IS rigging?
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Nov 11, 2018 07:27
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GreyjoyBastard posted:yeah, I'm hoping for both A) infinite investigations into the multitudinous crimes of the administration in general and Donald in particular and B) quixotic passing of good bills to force the Senate to go on record against Medicare for All / living wage / voting rights act mk2 / legal weed I'll first be very interested in the votes among the Dem House members for all those things. Also, if Pelosi can bring herself to whip her bloc into supporting them so they pass. Doing so would give Dems further strength in 2020.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:28
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Chilichimp posted:Other than, you know, the bourgeoisie. Or the German civilians on the way to Berlin. The Soviet Union didn't kill millions of rich people because there weren't that many rich people, and the death of German (and Polish, etc.) civilians was indeed a war crime but again, it was not the industrialized, systemized slaughter that the Holocaust was. I don't know why you are dismissing the significance of "this is literally a Nazi talking point" but ok.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:28
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Lightning Knight posted:It's not a dumb argument and it's not a matter of efficiency or body count, it's a matter of intent and method. I'm not arguing that Stalin is not bad. I am saying that equivocating the two is literally a classic Nazi talking point used to minimize the war crimes of Nazi Germany. That is kind of important actually. Stalin forcibly relocated ethnic groups, which is by definition genocide. This does not minimize Nazi genocide. Both Nazis and Stalin are scum that I hope are in hell, if it exists.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:31
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Bottom Liner posted:
No it's not because the Democratic party is indeed pretty loving bad while "but her emails" was a dumb Republican soundbite. Nothing I posted was being "contrarian accelerationist".
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Nov 11, 2018 07:31
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JUST MAKING CHILI posted:Stalin forcibly relocated ethnic groups, which is by definition genocide. This does not minimize Nazi genocide. Both Nazis and Stalin are scum that I hope are in hell, if it exists. I don't disagree with this statement. This is going to be a dumb and long derail and I can already feel it so I will concede the argument to you for the sake of the thread.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:32
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Charlz Guybon posted:How was it worded weird? Henry Clay was absolutely the most influential American politician between the signing of the Constitution and the outbreak of the Civil War. Because your post made it seem like he was elected speaker in 1789, and you must realize how that would make people double-take, as you were saying "he was elected speaker his first year in office." My 2nd line was a joke.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:32
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You know I was skeptical of the claim that merging threads was horrible. And then the last bunch of pages happened and lol welllllp. Those people were absolutely goddamn right. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2018 07:32
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't disagree with this statement. Holomodor derail averted, you might not be the hero we want, but you're the hero we need right now.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:37
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Grape posted:You know I was skeptical of the claim that merging threads was horrible. Except I was never skeptical. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2018 07:39
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Your Parents posted:im pretty sure the restaurant is a massive front for something because no restaurant would be able to survive the losses cheesecake factory seems to operate with as a baseline Sounds like a job for 4 chan to find the basement.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:45
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Chilichimp posted:Because your post made it seem like he was elected speaker in 1789 To people with limited reading comprehension perhaps.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:49
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I love the circular argument that its the voters fault we are where we are, never mind that half the country doesn't feel like voting. Better not lift a finger to get them to vote with better campaigns and candidates! Because then we'd just be giving into them 
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Nov 11, 2018 07:50
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Charlz Guybon posted:To people with limited reading comprehension perhaps. How about you guys be done with Henry Clay chat.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:50
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Lightning Knight posted:Stalin was undoubtedly a lovely dictator who caused the deaths of millions due to his own incompetence (emphasis added) I'm going to push back on this (not sure if you did this on purpose or not LK but I wanted to take the time to make this post) because I've seen a ton of unironic Holodomor denial and Stalin Did Nothing Wrong poo poo on this forum and it's loving disgusting and about as offensive as Holocasut denial. Stalin definitely intended the Holodomor to happen and he intentionally killed millions not accidentally. Numerous scholars agree on this. quote:Raphael Lemkin in his work "Soviet Genocide in the Ukraine", the last chapter of a monumental History of Genocide, written in the 1950s, applies the concept of genocide to “perhaps the classic example of Soviet genocide, its longest and broadest experiment in Russification—the destruction of the Ukrainian nation,” which he describes as a systematic campaign spanning at least from 1920 to 1946. In his work he speaks of: a) the decimation of the Ukrainian national elites, b) an offensive against churches, priests and hierarchy, the ‘soul’ of Ukraine, c) the starvation of the Ukrainian farming population, and d) its replacement with non-Ukrainian population from the RSFSR as integral components of the same genocidal process. The only dimension not included in Lemkin's analysis was the destruction of the 8,000,000 ethnic Ukrainians living on the eve of the genocide in the Russian Republic (RSFSR). quote:Yaroslav Bilinsky, Professor Emeritus of Political Science and International Relations at the University of Delaware, writes in the Journal of Genocide Research (1999) in a review of Holodomor literature—he concludes: quote:American historian James Mace wrote: quote:Professor Michael Ellman of the University of Amsterdam concludes that "Team-Stalin's behaviour in 1930–34 clearly constitutes a crime against humanity (or a series of crimes against humanity) as that is defined in the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court". It is also internationally recognized as a genocide: quote:The following countries have recognized the Holodomor as an act of genocide: quote:A number of international organizations adopted resolutions recognizing Holodomor as [a] "crime against humanity": People would be rightfully, very angry and offended, if people suggested the Holocaust was an accident so please everyone stop being Holodomor deniers and trying to weasel your way into it being an accident or a mistake or whatever other tankie nonsense you want to push because you can't bear the idea that communism was and is just as abhorrent as fascism. edit: and yes, Hitler is far worse than Stalin but they're both pretty loving horrible and no one should defend them in any way. axeil fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 07:51
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axeil posted:I'm going to push back on this (not sure if you did this on purpose or not LK but I wanted to take the time to make this post) because I've seen a ton of unironic Holodomor denial and Stalin Did Nothing Wrong poo poo on this forum and it's loving disgusting and about as offensive as Holocasut denial. The Ukrainian famine wasn't engineered or caused by Stalin but Stalin did exploit it and exasperate it for his own gain. In that it has more in common with the Irish famine of the 1840s and the Bengal Famine of the 1940s and the British governments hand in that Which stands in sharp contrast to the holocaust that was fully engineered and perpetrated by the nazis with the definite goal of maximum murder for the sake of murder.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:56
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Kinda disgusted at all the revisionists attempting to smear the Father of Nations using American propaganda. Just lol at anyone who’d favor Hitler over Stalin.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:59
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Kinda disgusted at all the revisionists attempting to smear the Father of Nations using American propaganda. clearly the correct vote is Tito
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Nov 11, 2018 07:59
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I genuinely think a thread on this topic would be worth having and reading, but this is not the thread for that.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:00
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GreyjoyBastard posted:clearly the correct vote is Tito trieste je nas, etc etc
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Nov 11, 2018 08:00
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Lightning Knight posted:I genuinely think a thread on this topic would be worth having and reading, but this is not the thread for that. One on the Holodomor specifically or genocide in modern history? Both would probably be interesting but they're going to be depressing as hell. 
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Nov 11, 2018 08:01
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When I see "Dems are rigging the primaries!" I expect to see to see poo poo like actual ballot box stuffing, or retroactively changing the rules, or poo poo like making the incumbent a checkbox but any challengers be a write in. "Members of the party, with the support of the party, are fundraising for your opponent because we think he has the best chance of winning, so we'd like you to drop out of the primary, but if not please avoid attacks that could hurt his chances in the general" doesn't come close to that metric. I don't have the expectation that a party or members of a party will not influence a primary election whatsoever. Running in a primary is basically asking to use the parties reputation, resources and connections to help your election chances. Continue to vote progressive democrats in during primaries, they haven't made it impossible. Push back against the democratic party if they unfairly influence a primary against a progressive democrat. Don't spread alarmist headlines that discourage people from participating in the political process at all or into voting for the loving Green party.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:01
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GreyjoyBastard posted:clearly the correct vote is Tito No vote needed, Tito merely imposes himself as the natural leader we need and we’ll follow him to the end of the world.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:03
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axeil posted:One on the Holodomor specifically or genocide in modern history? Probably the Holodomor, since it is the one that is at issue and the most politically charged.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:04
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I would vote for Stalin in basically any possible matchup except Pol Pot, kill everyone, Judge Death 2020
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Nov 11, 2018 08:05
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I'm glad we can acknowledge that the definition of genocide is much broader than the most extreme examples as produced by the systematic destruction of entire populations under the machinations of Germany's Third Reich. I wonder how scholars would characterize the outcomes of policies as described here?quote:which is why we shouldn't just destabilize russia but utterly destroy its ability to do anything. full embargo of its goods, full travel ban on russian passports, seize all assets both liquid and physical held by russian nationals and sever all the internet cables running out of that frigid wasteland. Food for thought.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:07
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THF13 posted:When I see "Dems are rigging the primaries!" I expect to see to see poo poo like actual ballot box stuffing, or retroactively changing the rules, or poo poo like making the incumbent a checkbox but any challengers be a write in. They aren't picking the candidate they think is most likely to win. They are picking the one that will be most friendly to corporate interests 
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Nov 11, 2018 08:07
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If it was true, using a memorial service to lay some sly burns on Trump would have been just as poor behaviour as ducking the service due to rain
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Nov 11, 2018 08:09
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My first car was a stick
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THF13 posted:When I see "Dems are rigging the primaries!" I expect to see to see poo poo like actual ballot box stuffing, or retroactively changing the rules, or poo poo like making the incumbent a checkbox but any challengers be a write in. We don't know whether they actually DID retroactively change any rules but in a lawsuit over the 2016 primary the DNC's argument was "if we did disobey our own rules that would be our right as a private organization" rather than any form of "we didn't disobey our own rules" so they've certainly worked to make it as hard as possible to think they DIDN'T rig things. (Bernie still wouldn't have won the primary anyway, which is the worst part, they pissed off a bunch of their own base for no reason.)
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Nov 11, 2018 08:10
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THF13 posted:When I see "Dems are rigging the primaries!" I expect to see to see poo poo like actual ballot box stuffing, or retroactively changing the rules, or poo poo like making the incumbent a checkbox but any challengers be a write in. This entirely depends on how important money is in politics. What does the Democratic Party's support means in terms of percentage points in a close primary, or in terms of the probability of winning the race? There has to be a threshold past which it would make more sense to run as an independent in a left-leaning district and encourage people to treat the Republican Party as a third party by Election Day.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:11
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derail.
FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 08:14
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Now I know that the most corrupt fucker in history, an outright nazi who has stoked racial hatred, betrayed the country to Russia, hosed over trans people at lightspeed, thrown kids into camps, and deployed the military to gun down refugees, all while undermining the entirety of civic society and the mores of democracy, is bad, but hear me out; What if the other guys are just as bad? I mean they wouldn't have done any of that poo poo but they also wouldn't have implemented FALGSC by now so, really, they're both equally bad. I sure know that a too-slow improvement in rights for us trans people is exactly as bad as the suicidal terror and plans to flee the country which we got! A whole loving lot of us don't have the privilege of waiting for a mythical perfect candidate, we have to vote for the ones who at least aren't trying to destroy us, because at least if nothing else, that way we can fight again tomorrow because we're, you know, not loving dead.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:15
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Seriously, Axeil, if you're interested, make a thread about this.
Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 08:16
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No, it's cool, I was about to delete it cause I saw you asked for it to be dropped. My bad.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:17
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This strawman about how if you point out that the democrats are pretty bad in their own right you must not vote or vote Republican is pretty novel. Wait no not novel, old and busted is what I meant.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:20
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reignonyourparade posted:We don't know whether they actually DID retroactively change any rules but in a lawsuit over the 2016 primary the DNC's argument was "if we did disobey our own rules that would be our right as a private organization" rather than any form of "we didn't disobey our own rules" so they've certainly worked to make it as hard as possible to think they DIDN'T rig things. (Bernie still wouldn't have won the primary anyway, which is the worst part, they pissed off a bunch of their own base for no reason.) The rigging for HRC talking point needs to die and for one very specific reason. If the DNC was "rigging" this for Clinton, they would told Bernie to gently caress off when he ran and not allowed him in the primaries because he isn't a Democrat. Like, literally does not affiliate with the party. As an example of extreme hypocrisy Our Revolution basically does what they accuse the DNC of doing.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:21
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Axetrain posted:This strawman about how if you point out that the democrats are pretty bad in their own right you must not vote or vote Republican is pretty novel. Wait no not novel, old and busted is what I meant. Except there are plenty of people here that say that exact thing.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:24
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