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Stexils posted:depends on the field and how often they actually get raided. for example the farmers who have to pay normal wages instead of "illegal immigrant" wages for crop pickers would definitely oppose such a measure. We've already seen that farmers would rather let their crops rot than actually pay workers a decent wage
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:21 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:20 |
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Phi230 posted:Yeah I too make poo poo up to so I can pretend migrant laborers don't exist Migrant laborers don't vote (unfortunately) so that is definitely not who I was talking about in my previous post, obviously.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:21 |
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e:, double post.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:22 |
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:The point of the exercise is that your action to choose the lane with fewer people is still a direct action you are taking which gives you moral culpability. The inaction is (quite arguably) freeing yourself from that. it's worth noting also that people aren't computers. they don't get the imperative "ENABLE AS LITTLE EVIL AS POSSIBLE" and then pull the lever for whoever that is. if they hate everybody on the ballot there's a point where the average voter just checks out. you can yell about purity testing and "this evil is YOUR FAULT" but, well, it's not really going to do anything to actually engage anybody. it's just self indulgent sermonizing.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:23 |
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Prester Jane posted:Rural America has a hugely disproportionate say in American politics because their poverty and isolation have long made them a population ripe for psychological/economic exploitation. If you want to help Rural America out of its plight you're going to have to do more then wag your finger at them. You're going to need a plan to address that exploitation and provide them resources and empathetic * media that will help them overcome the propaganda they've literally spent their entire lives being bombarded with. Or, disenfranchise them from the system in proportion with their population percentage. Which is what will actually solve the long-term issues there.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:24 |
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https://twitter.com/AprilDRyan/status/1065643814164070402 Good to know the GOP is using their last few weeks in charge of the House to focus on the important things
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:24 |
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how the gently caress is "bob goodlatte" not a liberal's name
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:26 |
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Or, disenfranchise them from the system in proportion with their population percentage. Which is what will actually solve the long-term issues there. Lol no it won't. Putting the current Democrats in power will not magically resolve the problems that rural America is experiencing. It would probably make those problems less severe (or at the very least impede the pace at which those problems are worsening)- but it would do nothing to address the underlying causes of those problems.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:27 |
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Prester Jane posted:Lol no it won't. Putting the current Democrats in power will not magically resolve the problems that rural America is experiencing. It would probably make those problems less severe (or at the very least impede the pace at which those problems are worsening)- but it would do nothing to address the underlying causes of those problems. I meant more destroying the inordinate advantage low population states have in affecting national policy by getting rid of things like the Senate and Electoral College, or just dissolve state lines entirely.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:28 |
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guys rurals aren't racist goblins, they're a bunch of frustrated people in a dire situation who keep getting promised the moon by liars I mean yes there's a couple GOOD OL BOYS YE HAW I LOVE ME SOME RACISM in there but it isn't all of them, everyone else has been massively disenfranchised by the center-right tennis match(with the center pretending to be the left) giving them the impression that both sides won't make things any better for them
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:29 |
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Yinlock posted:guys rurals aren't racist goblins, they're a bunch of frustrated people in a dire situation who keep getting promised the moon by liars This is how a collaborator talks.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:29 |
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Yinlock posted:guys rurals aren't racist goblins, they're a bunch of frustrated people in a dire situation who keep getting promised the moon by liars You can say the same basic thing about cops.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:31 |
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Kerning Chameleon posted:This is how a collaborator talks. you're actually both right, both sides have been loving them forever, but they share more in common value-wise with the Republicans. Meanwhile their influence is outsized and should be curbed. i am harry posted:You can say the same basic thing about cops. Lol there is no dire situation there
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:31 |
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i am harry posted:You can say the same basic thing about cops. you cannot Ate My Balls Redux posted:you're actually both right, both sides have been loving them forever, but they share more in common value-wise with the Republicans. Meanwhile their influence is outsized and should be curbed. yeah the main problem is the electoral college which is absolute rear end
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:33 |
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i am harry posted:You can say the same basic thing about cops. No, not really. Policing is an institution designed to uphold the power and interests of capital and the social in-group in a way that "living in rural areas" is not. Rural areas do have structural issues that cause them to trend more conservative and I think that Yinlock is being overly charitable but they absolutely deserve compassion and empathy in a way that we generally are guilty of not giving them. Also the reality is that the base of fascist support is not rural voters, because there aren't that many rural people. It's white suburban middle class pieces of poo poo.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:35 |
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Your Taint posted:As I've said before, even the absolute worst Dem is better than the absolute best Republican, and we'd all be a lot better off if she had won. While that's true, she doesn't have to keep loudly chasing Trump to the far-far-far right. This was a really disgusting thing for her to say. Moving rightward and punching leftward is a big part of the reason why she lost and Trump is now president.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:35 |
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Majorian posted:While that's true, she doesn't have to keep loudly chasing Trump to the far-far-far right. This was a really disgusting thing for her to say. Moving rightward and punching leftward is a big part of the reason why she lost and Trump is now president. If Clinton was “better” than Trump she wouldn’t have lost.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:38 |
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Yinlock posted:yeah the main problem is the electoral college which is absolute rear end The Electoral College failed the.purpose for its creation the only time it was tested, by allowing Trump to claim the Presidency when clearly unqualified. Thus, there is no reason to keep it around imo
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:39 |
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Kobayashi posted:If Clinton was “better” than Trump she wouldn’t have lost. Campaigning is a skill orthogonal to running the government, unfortunately
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:40 |
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Prester Jane posted:Why hasn't this population that's experienced generations of poor educational infrastructure in conjunction with the most sophisticated and well-funded propaganda apparatus in the history of mankind being targeted specifically at them- overcome their personal biases and taught themselves to think beyond the propaganda? It's like they're not even trying. Good thing it's a just world and people always get what they deserve. Generations ago, at least in the plains states, these folks were electing socialists and forming cooperatives precisely because they were aware of their power in our electoral system. And no, rural America does not have disproportionate power because they are uniquely exploitable (what?), it's because of the compromises made during the formation of our government, namely the Senate and inequities in how seats in the House are apportioned. This is a built-in, ever-present feature of our political system and the current state of our government is a reflection of the civic degeneracy of these areas. My plan would be to allow these areas to be colonized by millions of climate refugees in the coming decades, something that will probably happen whether it's planned for or not. Turns out we can just replace the fascists.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:40 |
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Kobayashi posted:If Clinton was “better” than Trump she wouldn’t have lost. Eh, there's "better" in terms of likely policy platforms, and there's "better" in terms of campaigning, winning elections, etc. Obviously the former doesn't matter poo poo if you can't manage the latter, and massive if you can't manage to be better at winning an election than Donald cocking Trump.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:41 |
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Munkeymon posted:Campaigning is a skill orthogonal to running the government, unfortunately Right, but choosing the proper people to shore up your weaknesses and blind spots is one of the most important aspects of leadership. She failed it horrendously by hiring wonks and sycophants
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:41 |
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Lightning Knight posted:No, not really. Policing is an institution designed to uphold the power and interests of capital and the social in-group in a way that "living in rural areas" is not. Rural areas do have structural issues that cause them to trend more conservative and I think that Yinlock is being overly charitable but they absolutely deserve compassion and empathy in a way that we generally are guilty of not giving them.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:42 |
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It wasn't rural poors who turned out for Trump en masse either though.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:43 |
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:The Electoral College failed the.purpose for its creation the only time it was tested, by allowing Trump to claim the Presidency when clearly unqualified. Thus, there is no reason to keep it around imo tired: abolish the EC wired: abolish the presidency Now show 2016, show the actual number of people that live in these areas, and speculate what it might've looked like if the SALT deduction issue wasn't in play. Trump's base of support in 2016 was suburban voters because that's where people actually live, Republicans did badly in 2018 because they lost those voters.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:44 |
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Munkeymon posted:Campaigning is a skill orthogonal to running the government, unfortunately I mean, it’s a pretty giant assumption that the staggering incompetence it takes to lose to Donald loving Trump in an election wouldn’t carry over to actual governance.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:44 |
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Kobayashi posted:I mean, it’s a pretty giant assumption that the staggering incompetence it takes to lose to Donald loving Trump in an election wouldn’t carry over to actual governance. Incompetence doesn't bother me too much. It's Trump's incompetence which has kept him from getting all the horrible poo poo he wants. Gridlock with 2-3 ultra-centrist SCOTUS judges would still probably be better than what we have now, even for the left's future prospects. Americans need to be shown that centrist Democrats don't meet their needs and are the enemy too. The October Revolution needed for Kerensky to try and fail before it could happen, after all. All that said, it's completely academic. Clinton lost because she ran to the right and punched left, and she's as culpable as anyone for Trump winning. The fact that she's still going further and further right, ever more loudly, is extremely damning.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:46 |
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I meant more destroying the inordinate advantage low population states have in affecting national policy by getting rid of things like the Senate and Electoral College, or just dissolve state lines entirely. Let me clarify then. You will never ever ever ever be able to destroy their inordinate advantage so long as they remain an easily exploitable source of power. You have to resolve the underlying issues the population is experiencing first before you can resolve their inordinate influence on politics- because so long as they remain an easily exploitable source of political power then the entrenched power structure will never willingly relinquish their power. The different factions will only seek to shift that power over to being under their own control. So what I am advocating for here is to help Rural America understand what's being done to them and to furthet provide them a conceptual/narrative framework that allows them to percieve a way out of the cycles they are trapped in. That doesn't mean appealing to their racism or proposing policy that appeals to ideas they've accepted as a result of propaganda, you have to empathetically undermine the influence of the propaganda. You do this by running candidates with genuine authenticity who are willing to get down and Brawl on their behalf. Rural America responds very strongly to that. In a sense that's why they supported Trump so strongly. They (incorrectly) perceived Trump as someone who was willing to get down and dirty and brawl on their behalf. And while they made the wrong choice it's understandable why they made that choice, Hillary Clinton certainly wasn't trying to pose herself as a fighter willing to Champion the causes of the little people. Hillary Clinton was running on the strength of her resume for the position of CEO of American Interests International (a limited liability Corporation), whereas Trump was at least pretending to run as someone who wanted to be the leader of the American people. Another thing to keep in mind is that Trump is authentically himself in public and refuses to be any other way, and like it or not that resonates with humans. Hillary always presented a carefully manicured and stage-managed public persona that felt as warm and welcoming as the aroma of strong antiseptic wafting down a hospital hallway.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:46 |
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Prester Jane posted:*snip* Applied military force would also accomplish this. Worked for the South before traitors weaseled us out of a proper Reconstruction.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:51 |
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Majorian posted:Incompetence doesn't bother me too much. It's Trump's incompetence which has kept him from getting all the horrible poo poo he wants. Gridlock with 2-3 ultra-centrist SCOTUS judges would still probably be better than what we have now, even for the left's future prospects. Americans need to be shown that centrist Democrats don't meet their needs and are the enemy too. The October Revolution needed for Kerensky to try and fail before it could happen, after all. i wouldn't say she's going further right she was clearly anti-immigrant before the election and toned that down when it became obvious that position was unpopular this is just her going back to her roots
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 18:56 |
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Zeno-25 posted:Generations ago, at least in the plains states, these folks were electing socialists and forming cooperatives precisely because they were aware of their power in our electoral system. And no, rural America does not have disproportionate power because they are uniquely exploitable (what?), it's because of the compromises made during the formation of our government, namely the Senate and inequities in how seats in the House are apportioned. This is a built-in, ever-present feature of our political system and the current state of our government is a reflection of the civic degeneracy of these areas. My counter-argument is that the reason rural America's outsized influence was baked into the structure of our government was specifically as a compromise with racists; which the racists agreed to because they knew that these areas would be easy for them to psychologically and economically exploit*. I would further argue that the brief. Where in Rural America was electing socialist was as a direct response to the brutal psychological and economic exploitation they were experiencing as a result of things like the Dust Bowl and Great Depression. Continuing on with this line of thought centrists in the Democratic party fully cooperated with the multi decade-long effort to dismantle and defang the rural socialist movement- resulting in widespread disillusionment that increase the vulnerability of the rural population to propaganda. In order to assist the psychological exploitation of Rural America and convert that into political power the literal largest and most sophisticated propaganda machine in the history of mankind was created and targeted at them. In my view so long as Rural America remains as easily exploitable source of political power you will never get eye party to truly cooperate with reducing that power. So you have to attack the problems at their roots and not wait for our leaders above to fix the problems they intentionally created. *"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Lyndon Johnson
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:00 |
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cause hillary shouldn't be the only one getting hate for being lovely today: https://twitter.com/IseEdgar/status/1065640293133733888 quote:American Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Romer developed the idea a decade ago. Romer gave a ted talk about how great this would be Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Nov 22, 2018 |
# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:01 |
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Stexils posted:how the gently caress is "bob goodlatte" not a liberal's name Bob Goodlatte is not in the Tea Party. Groovelord Neato posted:labour made its biggest vote swing under corbyn in over 70 years and is polling highest of any party why the gently caress would anyone listen to blair. Years ago, Corbyn's polling went up after Blair criticized him. Ralepozozaxe posted:Have you seen Corbyn's jacket? Can back that kind of leadership. Don't forget the time he was attacked for mourning a homeless person who froze to death outside parliament because the guy later turned out to be a pedophile.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:03 |
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Prester Jane posted:
Hilarly Clinton's platform, sans WV, was I will help you on these issues but you have accept that women and communities of color are equal to you, when it came to it rural white and uneducated white voters said no (though poor whites split closer to 50/50). They correctly perceived Trump as someone who will work for them and only them. Trump laid bare their racism and they said yes more of that. They still believe that as article after article has shown. They don't care that they are hurting, so long as someone else is hurt because they will be rescued in the end. Even the most educated among their ranks would rather go after the boogeyman social issues, then spend another loving dollar on programs that help them. So you can be Rural American's unfortunately have an issue of not having to and not wanting to interact with communities that do not look like them or think like them. There is no easy solution here but to say that it's because they want to believe liberal policies will set them free but only is someone is authentic is false. They will only support policies that help them and if a single loving dollar goes to a comunity they don't like they will destroy it piece by piece. This isn't some recent discovery.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:05 |
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Mooseontheloose posted:Hilarly Clinton's platform, sans WV, was I will help you on these issues but you have accept that women and communities of color are equal to you, when it came to it rural white and uneducated white voters said no (though poor whites split closer to 50/50). They correctly perceived Trump as someone who will work for them and only them. Trump laid bare their racism and they said yes more of that. They still believe that as article after article has shown. They don't care that they are hurting, so long as someone else is hurt because they will be rescued in the end. Even the most educated among their ranks would rather go after the boogeyman social issues, then spend another loving dollar on programs that help them. So you can be no-one cared about hillary's platform cause she quite explicitly advocated for having a public face and a private face on everything
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:07 |
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Stexils posted:depends on the field and how often they actually get raided. for example the farmers who have to pay normal wages instead of "illegal immigrant" wages for crop pickers would definitely oppose such a measure. Maybe, though I think unfounded fears about competition for jobs among workers is probably a bigger contributor. I'm not sure what evidence is available on this subject though, I can't say I ever remember hearing about big business lobbying for reduced legal immigration however. I have heard lots of businesses and farmers complaining about how hard it is to find legal workers though. Doesn't stop farmers from voting Trump of course.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:08 |
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Mooseontheloose posted:Hilarly Clinton's platform, sans WV, was I will help you on these issues but you have accept that women and communities of color are equal to you, when it came to it rural white and uneducated white voters said no (though poor whites split closer to 50/50). They correctly perceived Trump as someone who will work for them and only them. Trump laid bare their racism and they said yes more of that. They still believe that as article after article has shown. They don't care that they are hurting, so long as someone else is hurt because they will be rescued in the end. Even the most educated among their ranks would rather go after the boogeyman social issues, then spend another loving dollar on programs that help them. So you can be well i'd argue a big part of the problem is that even if that platform reached them clinton wasn't a reliable messenger. she wasn't trusted to deliver on any of her promises.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:10 |
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Squalid posted:Maybe, though I think unfounded fears about competition for jobs among workers is probably a bigger contributor. I'm not sure what evidence is available on this subject though, I can't say I ever remember hearing about big business lobbying for reduced legal immigration however. I have heard lots of businesses and farmers complaining about how hard it is to find legal workers though. Doesn't stop farmers from voting Trump of course. the legal immigration businesses advocate for put immigrants at extreme disadvantages against the businesses that would hire them. they care only about legal immigration as long as it allows them an underclass to exploit
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:11 |
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Condiv posted:no-one cared about hillary's platform cause she quite explicitly advocated for having a public face and a private face on everything It really cannot be stressed enough that Hillary had absolutely 0 credibility on any of that poo poo. No one had any reason to believe her.
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:11 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:20 |
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Oh Snapple! posted:It really cannot be stressed enough that Hillary had absolutely 0 credibility on any of that poo poo. No one had any reason to believe her. and that's just when she actually said she'd do something. sometimes she'd say stuff like “If it’s undecided when I become president, I will answer your question," (her response on whether or not she'd support the keystone xl pipeline)
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# ? Nov 22, 2018 19:16 |