|
Mr Enderby posted:This is very cool. Also something about it reminds me of that Waugh quote I posted earlier, about Catholic priests setting about performing low mass like skilled labourers getting down to work. There were dozens of ingredients in the offering that had to be placed just so and he moved through them with practiced ease. While putting together the post I found a few more photos I think the thread might like.  A painting by a native artist from the 18th century. Notice that they put Inti the sun god in the corner.   Silver and gold headdresses. Silver was the metal of the moon and gold was the metal of the sun.  The church in the town of Machupicchu (not to be confused with the mountain Machu Picchu or the old city of Machu Picchu). The Jesus in the corner is probably Señor de los Temblores the patron saint of Cusco. All the lights in the church were energy efficient, even the votive candles.  Part of the Temple of the Sun in the Church of Santo Domingo in Cusco. Rather than tear it down the Spanish decided to wall it off. It was revealed when an earthquake destroyed the fresco covering it.
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 05:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
Pellisworth posted:You better believe my Episcopal church has a spirit plate with delectable dollops of hot dishes and jello salad on Sundays This is awesome. ThingOne posted:
Tag yourself. I'm the disembodied soldier's ear being cut off with a knife. Do you know what those pestle and mortar looking things are?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 16:48
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:Do you know what those pestle and mortar looking things are?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 16:52
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:holy water bowl and aspergillium? seeing as the message of the icon as a whole seems to be "the passion is recapitulated in the mass" That sounds right. There's a censer in there as well. The more I look at that painting the more I like it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 17:06
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:That sounds right. There's a censer in there as well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:This is awesome. I'm the awkward devil who doesn't know you but doesn't want to be rude now that you've made eye contact.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 17:26
|
|
|
ThePopeOfFun posted:Awesome. Thanks. although the western half of the church used to have an altar screen as well, they had only the gate in the middle. also the place behind the altar screen was much bigger, like half the church bigger, because the choir was back there too. no idea why. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
Pontius Pilate posted:Still an atheist but I appreciate all y’all and this thread; I’m attempting to get my boyfriend to be a bit less militant which should be an easy sell since his mom is a well-educated, progressive, and all-around-awesome Presbyterian minister/sociology professor at a seminary. But he’s a gay neuroscientist so that maybe negates the cool mom. but if you do i warn you that the logistics of a mixed relationship are difficult: if you want to fast you'll be preparing two meals, and if you are an old calendarist (which you should be) he and his entire family will want to celebrate all the holidays on a different date from you. the fasting thing is a giant pain in the rear end if your partner is non-orthodox, i speak from experience
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
So I noticed a pattern. About every year at this time I get a surge of interest in spirituality, religion and I vow to at least read The Bible. I never do because there are so many deal breakers. I'm a guy who loves tradition, history, hierarchy and silly hats. I'm also from a Roman Catholic family. But I also love my LGBTQ+ friends too much to think of them as diseased or to be part of an organization that has the policy of thinking of them as diseased. I could overlook the contraception and abortion things maybe - many Catholics already totally overlook the former - but not this. I was considering going to an Anglican Communion Church, though. I also have a nice audio version of the Douay-Rheims Bible I want to get around to listening to. This is a pretty Progressive forum. How do you Orthodox or Catholics deal with social policies that offend your sensibilities? Also any Anglicans here?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 09:04
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:This is a pretty Progressive forum. How do you Orthodox or Catholics deal with social policies that offend your sensibilities? Also any Anglicans here? With the intention of Christlike revolution. It's not my goal to have relations and associations only with people who don't offend my sensibilities. My goal is to reduce the occurrences of things that offend my sensibilities. I want to undo homophobia and the pain it causes. I don't want to just only know non-homophobes. I want to undo fundamentalism. I don't want to just only know non-fundamentalists. I work in and with the locality that I'm presently in. But of course I come here regularly for the reliable company of non-fundamentalist non-homophobes, because that's pleasant and important. I also try to be mindful of the ownership, transfer, and responsibilities of wealth and capital, which the Catholic Church is definitely tied up with, and other religions, too. It's about money and material resources, but it's also about how labor and human capital are employed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 09:48
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I'm a guy who loves tradition, history, hierarchy and silly hats. I'm also from a Roman Catholic family. But I also love my LGBTQ+ friends too much to think of them as diseased or to be part of an organization that has the policy of thinking of them as diseased. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Dec 1, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 14:19
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:This is a pretty Progressive forum. How do you Orthodox or Catholics deal with social policies that offend your sensibilities? Also any Anglicans here? I once had a really long chat with my priest (Catholic) about LGBT issues in the church, and he said he thought things on that front would eventually change. Already the attitude isn't quite as hardline in a lot of places. I sort of absorb it the same way I take the Church's teachings on contraception. It's not in line with what we understand about life and one day the church will reflect that. The wheels turn slowly. The church isn't perfect but I believe there's value in it despite all the horrible nonsense it also contains. A bit like family. My family isn't perfect but for me, it's worth dealing with the stupid bullshit, to have the good and valuable stuff. Other people might feel differently and I understand that. I don't think, if I were coming at religion from a perspective of not having been raised Catholic, that I would choose Catholicism because of the social policies I so firmly disagree with. But I was, and it's home to me. I don't think this was very coherent, sorry.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 14:54
|
|
|
HopperUK posted:I once had a really long chat with my priest (Catholic) about LGBT issues in the church, and he said he thought things on that front would eventually change. Already the attitude isn't quite as hardline in a lot of places. I sort of absorb it the same way I take the Church's teachings on contraception. It's not in line with what we understand about life and one day the church will reflect that. The wheels turn slowly. The church isn't perfect but I believe there's value in it despite all the horrible nonsense it also contains. A bit like family. My family isn't perfect but for me, it's worth dealing with the stupid bullshit, to have the good and valuable stuff. Other people might feel differently and I understand that. I don't think, if I were coming at religion from a perspective of not having been raised Catholic, that I would choose Catholicism because of the social policies I so firmly disagree with. But I was, and it's home to me. Churches (of any denomination) are inherently conservative - not politically conservative, but "resistant to change" conservative. Policies and attitudes change over the course of generations and centuries. They don't like changing doctrines willy-nilly. Any change has to be thoroughly thought through and worded in a way to be defensible forever. They want to deal with something once and be done with it. Hence, society changes a whole lot faster than church doctrine does. LGBT issues are comparatively recent (well, they've always been around but became socially important recently), so it's going to take some time for churches to react and craft a response they can be comfortable with for a long time. My own denomination (Methodist) has been rather backward on the issue, but they've been talking about it internally for about 40 years and are gradually working out a policy for it. It may be coming to a head next January, in fact. I've stuck with them while they've been hashing it out. If they can't find an acceptable position on it soon, though, I may start looking elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 16:19
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I was considering going to an Anglican Communion Church, though. I also have a nice audio version of the Douay-Rheims Bible I want to get around to listening to. If it's important to you that a church is affirming, then you might want to check out which strand of Anglicanism your nearest church is, because views on lgbt issue ranges very widely across the Communion.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 16:33
|
|
|
my two cents: I'm uncomfortable with the idea of converting for non-doctrinal reasons. If you really believe the Orthodox church is the fullness of Christian faith, then there is no other option or very few other options (the second known Orthodox person in the US, a convert, got a dispensation to attend Episcopalian services while in the US). This isn't like consumer goods, where I can pick one color of shirt or another. Unless I became persuaded the church has become heretical it's not really a choice from my pov any more. i wish The Phlegmatist hadn't left the internet because of religious reasons, this sounds like something he'd have intelligent opinions on. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Dec 1, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 16:36
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:How do you Orthodox or Catholics deal with social policies that offend your sensibilities? I take the current Pope's attitude of capital punishment as something with which I will not disagree in public. There's a long tradition of Catholics having particular aspects of Church policy as things that they will neither defend nor disagree with; the goal for me would be to eventually be able to defend it, but I don't think having that as a goal is obligatory. Certainly the myriads of people HEY GUNS mentioned were unlikely to want to be able to defend doctrines that offended them! On the other hand, were those social policies to change, I would have very serious doubt about the Catholic Church being what it claims to be. (One of the things you said you could 'overlook' is something we can't discuss in this thread; the rest of this parenthetical has been redacted.) The only reason to say "that's something I do not defend but won't disagree with" is because one thinks the Catholic Church is directly descended from the Church instituted by Christ and that unimpaired communion with the Pope is at least important if not crucial. Other Christian denominations have beautiful worship and fancy hats without unpleasant policies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 16:39
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:I take the current Pope's attitude of capital punishment as something with which I will not disagree in public. There's a long tradition of Catholics having particular aspects of Church policy as things that they will neither defend nor disagree with; the goal for me would be to eventually be able to defend it, but I don't think having that as a goal is obligatory. after all this is a denomination where "angry mob" is one of the accepted ways to make opinions about doctrine known. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Dec 1, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 16:42
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:my two cents: I'm uncomfortable with the idea of converting for non-doctrinal reasons. If you really believe the Orthodox church is the fullness of Christian faith, then there is no other option or very few other options (the second known Orthodox person in the US, a convert, got a dispensation to attend Episcopalian services while in the US). This isn't like consumer goods, where I can pick one color of shirt or another. Unless I became persuaded the church has become heretical it's not really a choice from my pov any more. For a different perspective, I say attend whatever church makes you happy and comfortable. I don't see the choice between denominations - including Catholicism and Orthodox churches - as being conversion. The fullness of Christian faith is Christianity, a box quite a bit bigger than any human structure. God is bigger than anything we can build, and we are all flawed, sinful, limited creatures, even the best of us. Work out thine own salvation in fear and trembling, as Philippians 2:12 says. I don't think any church fully understands and represents the mind of God, we're simply not capable of it. Go with what makes sense to you and makes you happy in your own walk with Christ. That's what it comes down to in the end, as far as I'm concerned. You alone in a box with God. Then again, I'm never the one with the most popular opinions around here considering I think the idea of saints and specifically ordained priests run counter to Christ's message and teachings. It's between you and God, and that's it. Terrifying to some, but I find it comforting. https://i.imgur.com/nfXGs9J.mp4 Cythereal fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 1, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 16:53
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:whereas i don't think it's binding on us to agree with the metropolitans, patriarchs, and bishops. we are supposed to obey them (we don't) but i don't think we have to agree with them Don't forget, in Catholicism, the Romans kicked the popes out for 75 years, then threatened the Cardinals until they picked an Italian pope. When the pope that was picked proved to be violent and insane, the Cardinals left and elected somebody else as pope, and there were about 40 years where there were two popes. Then in the 19th century, the council the Pope called to make it religiously illegal to disagree with him about doctrine had to be cut short because armed troops took the city away from him with the help of the people of Rome, because nobody wanted the Pope ruling them anymore. So the public will is very much a part of Catholicism too. In fact, popular opinion is probably the big reason that Catholicism is so anti-gay, because outside of North America and Western Europe, public attitudes are pretty antigay, and all of North America and all of Europe, between them, only make up about 32% of Catholics worldwide.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 17:21
|
|
|
angry mobs edit: you forgot that if the conclave takes too long electing a pope they'll block up the building and start throwing things through the upper windows, also the riots during the interregna HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Dec 1, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:If it's important to you that a church is affirming, then you might want to check out which strand of Anglicanism your nearest church is, because views on lgbt issue ranges very widely across the Communion. Yeah I was a bit worried about that. But I thought the official policy of churches in the Communion was LGBT acceptance. That's why there are a bunch of Anglican Churches pointedly not in Communion with...Canterbury or something? I even found a Canadian priest who said he left the Communion after they started allowing gay marriage. I dunno, it's all really complicated. Or maybe I just think too much. I any event, I appreciate the responses everyone. Thank you very much. I'll be sure to inform you what all happens. I just got my Bible so that's a start. No real agreement in what order to read it so far as I know. A lot of people suggest starting with the Gospels and not, I dunno, Leviticus.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 18:19
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:No real agreement in what order to read it so far as I know. A lot of people suggest starting with the Gospels and not, I dunno, Leviticus. I don't think this can be understated. My prayers and meditations have led me to believe that the point of Jesus Christ was to replace the system that was there before. The hundreds of arcane social laws including the ones about homosexuality and eating ham and offering cattle as sacrifices are obsolete, replaced by two overarching guidelines. To pretend that the old customs supersede the ones Jesus himself gave us is to deny Jesus' power and, ultimately, Jesus himself.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 18:38
|
|
|
saintonan posted:I don't think this can be understated. My prayers and meditations have led me to believe that the point of Jesus Christ was to replace the system that was there before. The hundreds of arcane social laws including the ones about homosexuality and eating ham and offering cattle as sacrifices are obsolete, replaced by two overarching guidelines. To pretend that the old customs supersede the ones Jesus himself gave us is to deny Jesus' power and, ultimately, Jesus himself. I often, in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, find it difficult to answer the question 'Would Jesus recognize his Church' in joyous affirmative.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 20:04
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I dunno, it's all really complicated. Or maybe I just think too much. I any event, I appreciate the responses everyone. Thank you very much. I'll be sure to inform you what all happens. I just got my Bible so that's a start. Bible 101 reading list: Matthew, Acts, Romans, Job, Then go back and read the other Gospels, Mark Luke John and some of the Epistles. Skip Revelation because it's  .I don't think it's a good idea to dive to deeply into the Old Testament to start out. Other than Job which is an excellent piece of literature and addresses the thorny issue of theodicy: why is there evil and suffering if we have a loving God?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 20:56
|
|
|
Pellisworth posted:I don't think it's a good idea to dive to deeply into the Old Testament to start out. Other than Job which is an excellent piece of literature and addresses the thorny issue of theodicy: why is there evil and suffering if we have a loving God?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2018 21:38
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:my two cents: I'm uncomfortable with the idea of converting for non-doctrinal reasons. If you really believe the Orthodox church is the fullness of Christian faith, then there is no other option or very few other options (the second known Orthodox person in the US, a convert, got a dispensation to attend Episcopalian services while in the US). This isn't like consumer goods, where I can pick one color of shirt or another. Unless I became persuaded the church has become heretical it's not really a choice from my pov any more. This sounds like an interesting little tidbit. What was up with that, and why Episcopalian rather than Papist?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:some of it's cool poetry though, psalms, isaiah, the dry bones part of ezekiel, etc Controversial opinion: Psalms is terrible, Song of Solomon, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes are where it's at. Ezekiel is the best of the OT prophets, Jeremiah can go piss up a rope. I've read through the Bible twice and I feel that Matthew is the better of the Gospels, but I'm a filthy pagan so what the hell do I know, really?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 01:34
|
|
|
Job is the best book in the OT, though Ecclesiastes is real good. Jonah is also really funny once you realize it's a satire about what a massive jerk Jonah is. I'll always have a soft spot for it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 01:35
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:I often, in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, find it difficult to answer the question 'Would Jesus recognize his Church' in joyous affirmative. I think he would, though. Filled with self-interested leaders, an obsession with legalism and rules-lawyering one's way into heaven, and a tool of oppression and greed. I think he'd be disappointed, but he'd recognize it. From Catholics to Orthodox to Coptics to Lutherans to Baptists, the apple may have fallen far from the tree, but it's also fallen in about the place Jesus feared and kind of expected it would. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 02:33
|
|
|
The Potoo is one of the great creations of the Lord.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 02:46
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Also any Anglicans here? Me! Episcopal. Don't be Anglican if you are in the US, the ones that call themselves Anglicans in the US are the ones that don't like the gays (or women all that much either). Counterpoint to above, your stance on LGTB affirmation is doctrinal, because it says a lot about what you think about the Bible and the Church and authority, all of which are wrapped up in what you think about God. Marriage rights (rites) got me into the Episcopal Church, and I stayed for the Body and Blood and incense and a e s t h e t i c s .
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 03:29
|
|
|
WerrWaaa posted:Me! Episcopal. Don't be Anglican if you are in the US, the ones that call themselves Anglicans in the US are the ones that don't like the gays (or women all that much either). Thanks for the info! That works out well for me as there is an Episcopal Church closer to me than the Anglican Church I was looking at. Also I found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW8-xm2DdGY Funny and nice but also kinda sad and somber because, ya know. RIP Mr. Williams. I hope God is more forgiving of suicide than I've heard some say.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 04:30
|
|
|
Mad Hamish posted:Controversial opinion: Psalms is terrible, Song of Solomon, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes are where it's at. Ezekiel is the best of the OT prophets, Jeremiah can go piss up a rope. Psalms ruuuuuuule. But I only believe that after I spent a month praying the Psalms instead of my own thoughts, and also after I was extremely depressed. I read Psalm 87 last night through https://universalis.com Night Prayer. So human and good. Agree on SoS, Proverbs, and Ecc, of course. Big Solomon fan. ThePopeOfFun fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 04:39
|
|
|
Universalis is good! I also like the Divine Office app. Because I cannot decipher the daily prayer book I have. That's some advanced level catholicing right there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 05:28
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:my two cents: I'm uncomfortable with the idea of converting for non-doctrinal reasons. If you really believe the Orthodox church is the fullness of Christian faith, then there is no other option or very few other options (the second known Orthodox person in the US, a convert, got a dispensation to attend Episcopalian services while in the US). This isn't like consumer goods, where I can pick one color of shirt or another. Unless I became persuaded the church has become heretical it's not really a choice from my pov any more. There's maybe something to be said for the other way around. I mean, I have no way of knowing for myself whether the Son is coequal with the Father, or whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son or just the Father, or whether Jesus had both a divine and a human nature, but the question of whether or not homosexual desire is intrinsically disordered or other matters like that are things that I approach with knowledge and experience, and if the church is wrong on something like that, why trust them on doctrinal matters? From Augustine's "The Literal Meaning of Genesis" quote:Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 05:37
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:my two cents: I'm uncomfortable with the idea of converting for non-doctrinal reasons. If you really believe the Orthodox church is the fullness of Christian faith, then there is no other option or very few other options (the second known Orthodox person in the US, a convert, got a dispensation to attend Episcopalian services while in the US). This isn't like consumer goods, where I can pick one color of shirt or another. Unless I became persuaded the church has become heretical it's not really a choice from my pov any more. I suppose the alternative is to view churches as somewhat akin to alchemy -- we don't really know what we're doing, but there's something about spiritual growth in a communal setting that informs and enriches us, and it works so much better than going it alone that even serious disagreements about doctrine don't totally erase their worth. Sounds kind of Protestant now that I type it out, though. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 06:17
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:This sounds like an interesting little tidbit. What was up with that, and why Episcopalian rather than Papist? 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Dec 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 09:59
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:There's maybe something to be said for the other way around. I mean, I have no way of knowing for myself whether the Son is coequal with the Father, or whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son or just the Father, or whether Jesus had both a divine and a human nature, but the question of whether or not homosexual desire is intrinsically disordered or other matters like that are things that I approach with knowledge and experience, and if the church is wrong on something like that, why trust them on doctrinal matters?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 10:06
|
|
|
Mad Hamish posted:Psalms is terrible
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 10:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:they were written to be sung, ideally in greek Are you sure? Don't they (or many of them at least) predate Judean hellenism?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2018 13:56
|
|
