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Megillah Gorilla posted:I remember when the US first started with the whole 'torture is cool and good' after 9/11 and people brought up a book written by a US officer back in WWII on interrogating nazi prisoners of war. Yeah the irony is that torture gets basically jack poo poo, yet the previous best practices wrt mid and long term interrogation are so effective that it's always been considered essentially an inevitability that someone will talk. Like even for people calling the shots for people in a position to be captured are aware that if caught they will talk.
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Dec 11, 2018 06:31
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Arguably Dirty Harry and absolutely 24 did irreparable damage to the American psyche.
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Dec 11, 2018 06:43
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Just wait for the euolgies for GWB.
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Dec 11, 2018 07:07
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on the other hand, Trump's funeral is going to be the one that breaks the 'speak decorously of the dead' custom
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Dec 11, 2018 07:48
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https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1072282981195227136 Apparently Butina's American boyfriend/co-conspirator was expecting to get gainful employment out of this. [your signature is being processed. check the notification bar for updates]
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Dec 11, 2018 08:10
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Mauser posted:Sorry, can someone link me to the NRA going down? That was mentioned a couple times, but I haven't read anything about it. It's been overstated. They're downsizing/reorganizing, but the stories about them going broke appear to be just a way to get more donations.
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Dec 11, 2018 08:16
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah the irony is that torture gets basically jack poo poo, yet the previous best practices wrt mid and long term interrogation are so effective that it's always been considered essentially an inevitability that someone will talk. Like even for people calling the shots for people in a position to be captured are aware that if caught they will talk. I have a friend who was an navy Intel officer in the Iraq war and he says basically the same thing. He told me he got a lot more reliable information with candy bars instead of a cudgel.
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Dec 11, 2018 12:59
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friendbot2000 posted:I have a friend who was an navy Intel officer in the Iraq war and he says basically the same thing. He told me he got a lot more reliable information with candy bars instead of a cudgel. People are ridiculous susceptible positive treatment while under duress like, say, when they're being held in prison with no prospect of release. Similar to the psychological loop that traps people in in abusive relationships, only leveraged for sake of intelligence gathering. Still pretty odious, though obviously nowhere near as bad as torture.
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Dec 11, 2018 13:04
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I remember when the US first started with the whole 'torture is cool and good' after 9/11 and people brought up a book written by a US officer back in WWII on interrogating nazi prisoners of war. Oddly enough, it was my brother who convinced me more than anyone else, if I ever needed to be convinced, that torture doesn't work. Context: my brother is a full-on MAGA chud, so he would be in favor of torturing brown people for any pretext whatsoever. But he was also professionally trained by the army as an interrogator and he's reasonably intelligent in any subject that doesn't require him to ideologically adhere to whatever the GOP commands.... except for this subject. (That stupid show 24 was popular, so people always asked him about torture) And he was always saying stuff like "yeah, torture does not work. If you want to be cruel then whatever, but if you want to get information, then you either need to somehow befriend them, or bore them into talking. They will answer questions if you hurt them, but it'll probably be lies and you wont know they lied to you for weeks or maybe even months."
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Dec 11, 2018 13:12
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The Glumslinger posted:https://twitter.com/NoahShachtman/status/1072267567975288832 a week or so old, but Totally Unrelated https://twitter.com/Anthony/status/1068477767052926976 totally, probably... unrelated... https://twitter.com/johnson_carrie/status/1068479049843003397 Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Dec 11, 2018 |
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Dec 11, 2018 13:19
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Skippy McPants posted:People are ridiculous susceptible positive treatment while under duress like, say, when they're being held in prison with no prospect of release. Eh except the part where abuse victims fear changing the status quo and stay trapped.
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Dec 11, 2018 13:35
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Mustached Demon posted:Eh except the part where abuse victims fear changing the status quo and stay trapped. Similar, not the same. I specifically mean the bit where people under extreme stress will often respond disproportionately to even the smallest benevolent gesture, even if it's being offered by people who put them in that situation to begin with.
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Dec 11, 2018 13:38
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Skippy McPants posted:Similar, not the same. I specifically mean the bit where people under extreme stress will often respond disproportionately to even the smallest benevolent gesture, even if it's being offered by people who put them in that situation to begin with. Alright there we go. I'm only being a jerk because eliminating that fear of the unknown leads to breaking the cycle of abuse. It's so important to helping victims become self sufficient without their abuser in their life.
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Dec 11, 2018 13:44
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No worries, I was vague and agree that the distinction matters.
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Dec 11, 2018 13:47
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I remember when the US first started with the whole 'torture is cool and good' after 9/11 and people brought up a book written by a US officer back in WWII on interrogating nazi prisoners of war. Do you know the name of the book? I'd love to read it, and maybe get it as a holiday gift for ... certain ... family members.
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Dec 11, 2018 14:33
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Arguably Dirty Harry and absolutely 24 did irreparable damage to the American psyche. 24 was a symptom, not the disease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P52G4Kyq5M
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Dec 11, 2018 15:53
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Chilichimp posted:a week or so old, but Totally Unrelated Russian banks have also recently been warning other banks to develop alternative payment settlement routes in case they get disconnected from the SWIFT network. It could be completely unrelated, but they also might be worried that something like Butina or the Brexit Leave investigation exposing the use of those banks to conduct political money laundering.
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Dec 11, 2018 16:11
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insert_funny posted:https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1072282981195227136 The article is slightly wrong. The Russian equivalent to the CIA is the SVR. The FSB is their FBI and the GRU is their DIA.
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Dec 11, 2018 16:17
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axeil posted:24 was a symptom, not the disease. It's both. Media is both a driver of culture and driven by it.
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Dec 11, 2018 16:21
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24 was cited by Scalia and many politicians as a reason why torture is actually cool and good, so it was definitely part of the disease.
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Dec 11, 2018 16:26
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Poor Miserable Gurgi posted:24 was cited by Scalia and many politicians as a reason why torture is actually cool and good, so it was definitely part of the disease. That was a rhetorical crutch, and beneath Scalia's talent. He was a perfectly fine sadist without having to be motivated by fiction. 24 was a symptom, just as Nino was, of the sickness that is centuries old now.
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Dec 11, 2018 16:31
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https://twitter.com/lukewsavage/status/1072532301467267072?s=21
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Dec 11, 2018 18:11
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Interesting possible development in the Huawei case:quote:A former Canadian diplomat now working for the International Crisis Group is missing in China, news that could further complicate an already tense diplomatic standoff over the arrest of a senior Chinese tech executive in Vancouver last week. https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...8fc2_story.html I was expecting that they would retaliate more directly against the US but I guess for now they're just trying to put pressure on Canada to prevent extradition.
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Dec 11, 2018 18:55
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The meeting between Schumer, Pelosi, Pence and Trump was amazing apparently. https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1072571585884766210 Tinkle tape is real. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Dec 11, 2018 |
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Dec 11, 2018 23:21
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mdemone posted:That was a rhetorical crutch, and beneath Scalia's talent. He was a perfectly fine sadist without having to be motivated by fiction. 
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Dec 12, 2018 00:23
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:Do you know the name of the book? I'd love to read it, and maybe get it as a holiday gift for ... certain ... family members. I tried finding it when I initially posted. I did find a bunch of interesting stuff from Luftwaffe interrogators* - who also agree torture was useless - but couldn't find the book I was thinking of. It's weird. In the years after 9/11, mention of the book was everywhere, but I can't find it now. I did find this great movie on youtube which was made during the war. It was used to actually train interrogators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_SjWqF1Xc0 * The Interrogator: The Story of Hanns Joachim Scharff, Master Interrogator of the Luftwaffe looks interesting and I might just pick it up myself. EDIT: Okay, this movie is legit fascinating. "Try to make the prisoner feel like you're his friend. The first one he's met since his capture." They do recommend against giving the prisoner any food, water or cigarettes to "soften them up" before the interrogation. But that also leaves the interrogator to be the one who gets those things for the prisoner. Reminds me a bit of The Wire where they just stuffed food into some of the suspects during interrogations. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Dec 12, 2018 |
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Dec 12, 2018 04:57
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I remember when the US first started with the whole 'torture is cool and good' after 9/11 and people brought up a book written by a US officer back in WWII on interrogating nazi prisoners of war. More than that, the FBI did studies on this. They basically came to the conclusion in the 1940's that torture doesn't work to gather information. Now, torture DOES work at getting false confessions. My guess is the Bush admin was torturing people to get false confessions, got found out, then tried to justify it and people ran with it.
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Dec 12, 2018 12:36
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Nelson Mandingo posted:More than that, the FBI did studies on this. They basically came to the conclusion in the 1940's that torture doesn't work to gather information. The Army interrogation manual prohibits torture too, and has basically forever. It literally block-quotes the Geneva Conventions. Just separating a prisoner from other prisoners has a whole bureaucratic process attached to approving it, and can't even be done to anybody covered by the Geneva Conventions. The 2006 update banned waterboarding by name. Basically even organizations thought of as evil bastards don't think torture is actually useful for getting accurate data.
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Dec 12, 2018 14:03
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Nelson Mandingo posted:More than that, the FBI did studies on this. They basically came to the conclusion in the 1940's that torture doesn't work to gather information. It's dumber than that. Dubya watched too much goddam 24 and ordered torture to happen, that was the extent of the thought process.
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Dec 12, 2018 14:27
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sean10mm posted:The Army interrogation manual prohibits torture too, and has basically forever. It literally block-quotes the Geneva Conventions. Just separating a prisoner from other prisoners has a whole bureaucratic process attached to approving it, and can't even be done to anybody covered by the Geneva Conventions. The 2006 update banned waterboarding by name. Remember that stupid talking point of "if there was a credible bomb threat in your city/school/scaretactic, wouldn't you want the authorities to use EVERY tool at their disposal to prevent it?" Or worse "What if the information they get prevents another 9/11?"
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Dec 12, 2018 14:45
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I tried finding it when I initially posted. I did find a bunch of interesting stuff from Luftwaffe interrogators* - who also agree torture was useless - but couldn't find the book I was thinking of. Thank you for this! Was only able to watch a few minutes so far, but will keep at it. Fascinating stuff.
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Dec 12, 2018 15:22
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Sort of dragging this vaguely back towards the original topic, Butina was in solitary confinement at the time she flipped although other factors clearly played a role.
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Dec 12, 2018 15:23
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friendbot2000 posted:Remember that stupid talking point of "if there was a credible bomb threat in your city/school/scaretactic, wouldn't you want the authorities to use EVERY tool at their disposal to prevent it?" Or worse "What if the information they get prevents another 9/11?" These are the people who would also quite earnestly call for putting "our best and brightest" in charge of the TSA metal detectors. Like, literal brain surgeons and rocket scientists, watching the X-ray screen on a conveyor belt
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Dec 12, 2018 15:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's dumber than that. Dubya watched too much goddam 24 and ordered torture to happen, that was the extent of the thought process. They also hired a pair (think it was two?) of consulting "psychologists" who came up with a bunch of the poo poo in the enhanced interrogation programs basically by pulling it out of thier asses.
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Dec 12, 2018 16:54
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I used to attend church with one of the lawyers that helped draft the torture memos. To hear him talk, what they did was absolutely vital to the survival of our country. People will tell themselves whatever lie they have to so they can sleep at night. As far as I'm concerned, he's a war criminal.
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Dec 12, 2018 17:28
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But at least he went to church!
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Dec 12, 2018 17:52
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I remember when the US first started with the whole 'torture is cool and good' after 9/11 and people brought up a book written by a US officer back in WWII on interrogating nazi prisoners of war. Yeah, and if you look at Marine guides on intelligence gathering from the "Small Wars" in Latin America during the 1930s, they basically say the same thing. Torture doesn't work, and you should use techniques basically analogous to modern best practice. However by the 1970s or so torture does start appearing as a recommended technique in material produced by the US government, or at least CIA produced anti-communist manuals distributed to allies abroad. It's not clear that gathering intelligence was even really the aim of such tactics, as simply terrorizing peoples was itself seen as a goal.
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Dec 12, 2018 18:28
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Michael Cohen sentenced to three years in prison for crimes committed while working for Trumpquote:A federal judge on Wednesday sentenced President Trump’s former lawyer Michael Cohen to three years in prison for financial crimes and lying to Congress, as the disgraced former “fixer” apologized for his conduct but also said he felt it was his duty to cover up the “dirty deeds” of his former boss. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE
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Dec 12, 2018 19:09
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Squalid posted:Yeah, and if you look at Marine guides on intelligence gathering from the "Small Wars" in Latin America during the 1930s, they basically say the same thing. Torture doesn't work, and you should use techniques basically analogous to modern best practice. I knew the guy who authored the main CIA text on the subject that was widely distributed in latin american and it was absolutely about terror first and foremost. The US has always used terror and extreme brutality as part of the international toolbook, but it was still pragmatically understood that if you did need information, tossing 1/3 of your prisoners out of helicopters wasn't the best way to get it
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Dec 12, 2018 19:12
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/nyregion/amazon-queens-lobbyists.htmlquote:In making a deal with Amazon, the mayor and the governor negotiated behind closed doors and created a process that prevents the City Council from having any power to amend or torpedo the agreement. City and state officials provided detailed information to the company and agreed to sign a nondisclosure agreement that required them to alert Amazon every time a news reporter made a public information request about the deal. This is so loving disgusting. gently caress you Bezos.
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Dec 12, 2018 19:29
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