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Warmachine posted:Basically this. They'd have to be controlled via Psycommu. Which, isn't that what they do in X with the G-Bits? Annnnd now I'm off the watch Gundam X.
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Dec 15, 2018 02:24
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I remember the Rafflesia's buzzsaws were automated, and in the Crossbone manga Tobia runs across a mobile with a with a bio-brain with Amuro's data. So it's something Jupiter is working on, at the very least.
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Dec 15, 2018 03:13
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HitTheTargets posted:a bio-brain I’m sorry a what
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Dec 15, 2018 03:27
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ManSedan posted:I’m sorry a what Some kind of artificially grown brain they can make mimic a pre-existing brain. With a stupid name.
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Dec 15, 2018 03:36
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HitTheTargets posted:It's weird how none of the other Gundams have used a system like this. A computer that could make an Oldtype pilot like a Newtype would be great at furthering an us vs. them divide (SEED would have a heyday with it), but it's only really shown up as the EXAM system where it's really just a Newtype doing the piloting anyway. Or there're others where the mental strain means that only Newtypes can handle it. It gets completely glossed over in the anime but Unicorn's NT-D mode is another notable oldtype booster. Also, lesser known is the NITRO system from Delta Gundam Kai in 0094: Across the Sky.
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Dec 15, 2018 04:17
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I wish that Unicorn had shown the anti new type weapon counter measures being more effective. You'd think that after facing them for decades the federation could do a little better at countering funnels and the like.
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Dec 15, 2018 05:18
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HitTheTargets posted:I remember the Rafflesia's buzzsaws were automated, and in the Crossbone manga Tobia runs across a mobile with a with a bio-brain with Amuro's data. So it's something Jupiter is working on, at the very least. Pretty sure the buzzsaws are considered a weird funnel thing. If the Rafflesia goes down the buzzsaws stop working. I think.
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Dec 15, 2018 05:19
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Warmachine posted:Annnnd now I'm off the watch Gundam X. It's umm not very good, at least not until it's almost over and has no space or time left to do anything with its few interesting concepts.
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Dec 15, 2018 06:25
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Gaius Marius posted:I wish that Unicorn had shown the anti new type weapon counter measures being more effective. You'd think that after facing them for decades the federation could do a little better at countering funnels and the like. Funnels are outrageously unfair. They're total bullshit and the only way to counter them is to have some of your own/take control of them or otherwise be a rad Newtype. Every instance of funnels vs a regular guy (or 3) is the regular guy getting destroyed because he got shot from 8 different directions at the same time so unless you're a super pilot that can concentrate on dodging the equivalent of 8 perfectly coordinated guys all at once you're toast. The main way we see of minimising funnel effectiveness is to fight them in an environment with gravity because they then lose the advantage of being able to attack you from literally any direction with perfect precision to being kinda sluggish and limiting the angles they can attack you from. Or be Char, Amuro, Kamille or Judeau and shoot some down, but that's not an option for most people where if you see a funnel you're already doomed.
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Dec 15, 2018 07:20
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RillAkBea posted:It gets completely glossed over in the anime but Unicorn's NT-D mode is another notable oldtype booster. No, it's designed for use by Newtypes and (especially) Cyber-Newtypes, which is one reason it strips away control from the pilot, so their troublesome Newtype empathy doesn't kick in. The Banshee Norn's 'mane' is designed to make the NT-D usable by oldtypes by boosting their weedy brainwaves to Newtype levels, but since Riddhe turns out to be a Newtype, we don't know whether that worked or how much it helped.
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Dec 15, 2018 11:59
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Darth Walrus posted:No, it's designed for use by Newtypes and (especially) Cyber-Newtypes, which is one reason it strips away control from the pilot, so their troublesome Newtype empathy doesn't kick in. The Banshee Norn's 'mane' is designed to make the NT-D usable by oldtypes by boosting their weedy brainwaves to Newtype levels, but since Riddhe turns out to be a Newtype, we don't know whether that worked or how much it helped. Parts cut from the anime include an oldtype test pilot using NT-D to simultaneously juggle 3 ace pilots in a friendly fire exercise before he goes nuts and kills them before the NT-D system fries his brain. It turns out that yes the system can only be used by newtypes but in-canon it was built specifically to enable oldtypes to stand up to newtypes and cyber newtypes hence the acronym "NewType-Destroyer". Part of the entire point of putting La+ in the Unicorn was the literary juxtaposition of a weapon to kill newtypes and the thing which would ensure their survival as the next generation.
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Dec 15, 2018 13:12
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Captain Cappy posted:Aren't Newtypes super good because they basically have precognition? How do you put that in a computer? Newtypes are empaths and can sense their opponents' intentions rather than having outright precog. Even if they did precog, predictive analysis models with picosecond reaction times are basically functionally identical to that. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 13:18
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RillAkBea posted:Parts cut from the anime include an oldtype test pilot using NT-D to simultaneously juggle 3 ace pilots in a friendly fire exercise before he goes nuts and kills them before the NT-D system fries his brain. It being designed to kill Newtypes doesn't prevent it from being a Cyber-Newtype weapon, since Cyber-Newtypes are themselves anti-Newtype weapons. The La+ system being housed in a machine designed to warp Newtype power to horrendous ends also fits perfectly with Unicorn's themes.
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Dec 15, 2018 14:27
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Lemon-Lime posted:Newtypes are empaths and can sense their opponents' intentions rather than having outright precog. Even if they did precog, predictive analysis models with picosecond reaction times are basically functionally identical to that. Hmm. I suppose this would make a computer controlled suit the perfect counter-Newtype weapon as it wouldn't give away any information. That said, a pretty major part of Narrative is based on the idea of Newtypes having hella precognition. Fukui is very much of the opinion that Newtype abilities are unbound by time, and psychoframe amps them up to the point where they can outright manipulate it. HitTheTargets fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 17:55
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HitTheTargets posted:Hmm. I suppose this would make a computer controlled suit the perfect counter-Newtype weapon as it wouldn't give away any information. It's worth noting that while forming connections is the main Newtype superpower, these connections explicitly exist outside of time (hence the name of the CCA ED). It's why they can talk to the dead and the like, and see people not only as they are, but as they have been throughout their lives. It's plausible that a particularly strong Newtype could foresee a colony drop, for instance, because the enormous human pain and terror it causes echoes backwards in time.
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Dec 15, 2018 18:07
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HitTheTargets posted:Hmm. I suppose this would make a computer controlled suit the perfect counter-Newtype weapon as it wouldn't give away any information. Yes, but UC Gundam being 70s/80s sci-fi means AI research is basically nonexistent in the Universal Century (this is also why bits/funnels have to be piloted by a human via wires/psycommu instead of just being autonomous weapons). It's an interesting byproduct of the setting's origin. Contrast it to IBO, where mobile armours are fully autonomous combat units and the newtype equivalent involves cybernetic implants to create a mind-machine interface between the pilot and their suit to improve their response time, instead of psychic powers. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 19:05
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Minovsky particles are a magic handwave that makes relying too heavily on autonomous or drone-style weapons risky because they can't be effectively controlled at range. I guess you could make a totally self-contained autonomous killbot that doesn't need to phone home for instructions but, uh, I hope you're really confident in its identify friend/foe systems and that it won't have any unforeseen glitches.
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Dec 15, 2018 19:09
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Kanos posted:Minovsky particles are a magic handwave that makes relying too heavily on autonomous or drone-style weapons risky because they can't be effectively controlled at range. I guess you could make a totally self-contained autonomous killbot that doesn't need to phone home for instructions but, uh, I hope you're really confident in its identify friend/foe systems and that it won't have any unforeseen glitches. IFF and self repair, just hope both don't break at the same time. 
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Dec 15, 2018 20:23
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Midjack posted:IFF and self repair, just hope both don't break at the same time. With the help of KYOJIIIIIII
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Dec 15, 2018 20:36
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Darth Walrus posted:It's plausible that a particularly strong Newtype could foresee a colony drop, for instance, because the enormous human pain and terror it causes echoes backwards in time. Are you referencing NT, because that exact thing happens right at the beginning of it.
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Dec 15, 2018 20:40
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Kanos posted:Minovsky particles are a magic handwave that makes relying too heavily on autonomous or drone-style weapons risky because they can't be effectively controlled at range. I guess you could make a totally self-contained autonomous killbot that doesn't need to phone home for instructions but, uh, I hope you're really confident in its identify friend/foe systems and that it won't have any unforeseen glitches. I thought I remembered something about Newtype powers and Minovsky particles interacting somehow* so it wouldn't be completely a handwave, but yes. It's mostly one form of magic bullshit trumping another. *(Something to do with Judau's final fight with Haman maybe?)
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Dec 15, 2018 21:07
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Schubalts posted:Are you referencing NT, because that exact thing happens right at the beginning of it. I am, yes.
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Dec 15, 2018 21:23
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HitTheTargets posted:I thought I remembered something about Newtype powers and Minovsky particles interacting somehow* so it wouldn't be completely a handwave, but yes. It's mostly one form of magic bullshit trumping another. Powerful Newtypes can pump up the output of Minovsky beam weapons (or spontaneously generate output if the battery's flat, as Ple Two discovered at Dublin when Judau ripped her Psyco Gundam open with a deactivated beam sabre).
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Dec 15, 2018 21:26
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So was Axis repelled by a bigass I-field?ManSedan posted:He also uses Newtype magic to recombine his separated ZZ Top/bottom without pilots when he’s fighting Haman. I was specifically referencing Haman spontaneously inventing a beam shield at one point. I forgot just how deep the rabbit hole goes. HitTheTargets fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 21:39
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Darth Walrus posted:Powerful Newtypes can pump up the output of Minovsky beam weapons (or spontaneously generate output if the battery's flat, as Ple Two discovered at Dublin when Judau ripped her Psyco Gundam open with a deactivated beam sabre). He also uses Newtype magic to recombine his separated ZZ Top/bottom without pilots when he’s fighting Haman. Source: just watched the last few ZZ episodes earlier today. There’s weird Newtype powers all over the place, like Myshemere, who is “over enhanced” turning into a Newtype nuke, or ghosts piloting MS’.
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Dec 15, 2018 21:39
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HitTheTargets posted:So was Axis repelled by a bigass I-field? More like Newtype telekinesis - part of their ability to form connections with objects as well as people. You see it in Newtypes remote-controlling mobile weapons (like Banagher's shields, which have no means of propulsion) and in Judau (with Kamille's help) recombining the ZZ. ManSedan posted:He also uses Newtype magic to recombine his separated ZZ Top/bottom without pilots when he’s fighting Haman. I'd assume Mash just did to his Minovsky reactor what Judau and Kamille did to their swords.
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Dec 15, 2018 21:44
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Darth Walrus posted:More like Newtype telekinesis - part of their ability to form connections with objects as well as people. You see it in Newtypes remote-controlling mobile weapons (like Banagher's shields, which have no means of propulsion) and in Judau (with Kamille's help) recombining the ZZ. Magnets, how do they work? Given that Turn A moves solely via I-field manipulation, all these things could be one and the same.
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Dec 15, 2018 22:25
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Kanos posted:Minovsky particles are a magic handwave that makes relying too heavily on autonomous or drone-style weapons risky because they can't be effectively controlled at range. I guess you could make a totally self-contained autonomous killbot that doesn't need to phone home for instructions but, uh, I hope you're really confident in its identify friend/foe systems and that it won't have any unforeseen glitches. Especially since Minovsky Particles mess with all aspects of the electromagnetic spectrum and even visible light at high enough concentrations*, not just radio or radar *because of this what a pilot sees on the monitors in his cockpit isn't a direct feed from the suit's cameras(as it'll often be a blurry mess past a certain point), instead it's a computer recreation that can be tricked, hence why suits like the GM Camouf exist and why Dummy Balloons work, and also probably ties into one of the reasons Bits/Funnels and other remote weapons are so hard to counter
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Dec 15, 2018 23:32
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Having just finished ZZ Gundam is goes way off the rails. It's also a really very blah production start to finish. It wastes time all through its run even in the final 10 episodes. Judeau never to be seen again (probably the most powerful Newtype in the UC given a lot of the jedi tricks he pulls).
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Dec 16, 2018 00:46
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Kanos posted:Minovsky particles are a magic handwave that makes relying too heavily on autonomous or drone-style weapons risky because they can't be effectively controlled at range. I guess you could make a totally self-contained autonomous killbot that doesn't need to phone home for instructions but, uh, I hope you're really confident in its identify friend/foe systems and that it won't have any unforeseen glitches. I'm surprised the ethically sound and totally competent engineers of the Universal Century haven't already tried this.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:53
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Having just finished ZZ Gundam is goes way off the rails. It's also a really very blah production start to finish. It wastes time all through its run even in the final 10 episodes. Judeau never to be seen again (probably the most powerful Newtype in the UC given a lot of the jedi tricks he pulls). I finished it today as well and I completely agree. Overall I enjoyed it but I feel it could’ve been so much better. For one thing the Dublin colony drop, and the subsequent battle in and around it, were a real interesting event but the ramification of a third (technically second) colony drop are never once touched upon. I would’ve also liked to have seen a lot more buildup to Glemys rebellion, and really anything outside of the Argamas POV in the war. Haman and Judeaus relationship was a strong point, and I think one of the only rejected or incompatible Newtype bonds the series has done. I think Riddhe counts too. The fact that Newtypes understand each other on a cosmic level is usually portrayed as a positive relationship but with the two leads of ZZ they just don’t agree at all. Haman desperately tries to get Judeau to join with her, even to the point of putting herself in direct danger. It’s her ultimate end, as she goes out to meet with him one final time, even though the rebellion has been put down and Neo Zeon has basically won the day. I also liked a lot of the secondary characters, when they weren’t being idiots, even Beecha once he grew up.
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Dec 16, 2018 01:18
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Beecha straight up deserved to die for some of the poo poo he pulled.
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Dec 16, 2018 01:28
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Lemon-Lime posted:Newtypes are empaths and can sense their opponents' intentions rather than having outright precog. Even if they did precog, predictive analysis models with picosecond reaction times are basically functionally identical to that. Amuro and Char's final battle in 0079 being a sword fight is predicated on the idea that Amuro is actually precognitive, because Char thinks that just because Amuro can sense what he is going to do doesn't mean squat if he's not trained enough to make use of that knowledge. A few minutes later Amuro is able to visualize exactly what Bright, Fraw etc. are doing at that moment and even psychically connect with and guide them to safety with seeming precognition given that he tells them exactly when and how to move. Newtypes were kind of loosely interpreted even in 0079 though, and there's one point where Amuro displays a "Newtype sight/sense" of some kind, that allows him to pin-point the weakness of a ship he's facing and which lets him know exactly where to penetrate it to destroy the ship. It's odd enough compared to other Newtype stuff that I wonder if that wasn't a secondary writer's inclusion and something just kind of ignored from that point on. HitTheTargets posted:That said, a pretty major part of Narrative is based on the idea of Newtypes having hella precognition. Fukui is very much of the opinion that Newtype abilities are unbound by time, and psychoframe amps them up to the point where they can outright manipulate it. Is the only indication of psycoframe allowing time manipulation that line saying "it looks as if the reactors were turned back to a time before they were built"? Because that's really ambiguous, and seems like something that could just be meant to emphasize how thoroughly the reactors were disassembled rather than confirming time manipulation. It just seems like a weirdly small and weak way to introduce the idea that Newtypes can manipulate time. It's not a huge moment in the movie itself or even part of the climax or anything; it's just giving a bit more context to the events of a previous entry. Fukui probably took inspiration from 0079 for that though, since his Gundam works generally tend to heavily homage Tomino shows. When Amuro is talking to Lalah's ghost after she's killed, she says that she can see time from where she is now and asks Amuro if he thinks people will change, with Amuro saying something like he thinks people will all eventually become Newtypes or something. Marida's speech to Banagher when she appears to him in to Unicorn's cockpit after she's dead is very much reminiscent of that scene too. Darth Walrus posted:You see it in Newtypes remote-controlling mobile weapons (like Banagher's shields, which have no means of propulsion) and in Judau (with Kamille's help) recombining the ZZ. I've always kind of wondered about that moment, because while the ghosts in 0079 and Zeta spoke, the ghosts that appeared in ZZ were completely silent and they even have an odd color palette that suggests, to me at least, that the ghosts aren't showing up themselves but that Haman is reminded of them or something. Then again, she has no reason to be reminded of Lalah. Kamille isn't a ghost either. It probably is meant to be them showing up in spirit, but the fact they're silent and do nothing but show up in front of Judau, who doesn't even acknowledge them or even seem to realize it's happened is just kind of odd in the context of Gundam though given how active said ghosts normally are. Warmachine posted:I'm surprised the ethically sound and totally competent engineers of the Universal Century haven't already tried this. That's basically what the bugs in F91 were really. ManSedan posted:Haman and Judeaus relationship was a strong point, and I think one of the only rejected or incompatible Newtype bonds the series has done. I think Riddhe counts too. The fact that Newtypes understand each other on a cosmic level is usually portrayed as a positive relationship but with the two leads of ZZ they just don’t agree at all. Amuro and Lalah's relationship was as much a rejected or incompatible Newtype bond really, since while they understood each other it didn't change their views about the other much and both still recognized that they were going to have to fight because of what they felt about everything else. Lalah regrets that she met Amuro after she met Char, but she's still determined to fight for and protect Char regardless of that and Amuro never voices any doubt as to his cause or actions. Even the idea they understand each other perfectly is kind of odd in light of their relationship, because Lalah thinks Amuro has no-one to fight for or protect when he obviously has the crew of the White Base in that regard. More directly, you could view a few of the relationships in Zeta in that light, since while Sarah is obviously devoted to Scirocco she cannot understand him even after she's died and never really got his character. There's also Kamille and Haman sharing a vision of each other's past, which Haman angrily rejects even as Kamille tries to turn it in to an olive branch. tsob fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 03:05
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Judeau never to be seen again Well, yeah, but there's other heroes we can pay attention to in UC afterwards, like that Grey Stoke guy, he looks mighty familiar for some reason...
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Dec 16, 2018 03:42
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Newtypes have enhanced spatial awareness. Detecting weaknesses in an enemy machine's design probably falls under that, assuming you have enough background mechanical knowledge to know what a weak spot in a warship might look like.
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Dec 16, 2018 04:39
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Why couldn't Riddhe detect that Minerva just wasn't into him at all from the beginning.
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Dec 16, 2018 11:06
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Even the powers of a newtype can't overcome the powers of But I'm A Nice Guy.
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Dec 16, 2018 11:15
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Midjack posted:IFF and self repair, just hope both don't break at the same time. Fuckin' Ted Faro.
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Dec 16, 2018 11:20
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Zebulon posted:Fuckin' Resetting to the setting relevant rear end in a top hat. Just a shame the world of Horizon had no superhuman martial artists to clean up their messes. (Or, failing that, cyborg teenagers in mechs named after demons.)
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Dec 16, 2018 12:44
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tsob posted:Is the only indication of psycoframe allowing time manipulation that line saying "it looks as if the reactors were turned back to a time before they were built"? Because that's really ambiguous, and seems like something that could just be meant to emphasize how thoroughly the reactors were disassembled rather than confirming time manipulation. It just seems like a weirdly small and weak way to introduce the idea that Newtypes can manipulate time. It's not a huge moment in the movie itself or even part of the climax or anything; it's just giving a bit more context to the events of a previous entry. It's quite literal. The crystals forming on Unicorn come from the Psychoframe itself rewinding to before the metals were smelted. When asked to elaborate on this in an interview, Fukui went so far as to say there's already time travel in Gundam that's gone completely unnoticed.
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Dec 16, 2018 16:01
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