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Guy Axlerod posted:You're looking at the output ratings instead of the input ratings. The smaller UPS you mentioned has a max input current rating of 12 A. I didn't see an input rating for the other UPS. It should be on the rating plate, if you have access to one. This is one of those rare beasts which actually has a NEMA 5-20P on it. It will look really strange when you first see one. It can, and will, charge at the full rate capacity if drained. That is, 80% of a 20A 120V breaker, which is that 1980 number quoted above.
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Dec 17, 2018 21:46
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Jealous Cow posted:No matter how much I stare at 3-way wiring diagrams, I cannot figure it out and have generally resorted to just trying combinations of conductors until it behaves the way I want when removing one of the legs to convert to smart switches. 
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Dec 17, 2018 22:21
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Comrade Gritty posted:Next question! It sounds like this is a pretty short run. Running two new circuits is not much harder then just running one, and then you don't really have to worry about it. I think you could also do a multi-wire branch circuit, which would get you 2x20 capacity in one 12-3 wire. (not an electrician, do your own research here)
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Dec 18, 2018 01:33
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devicenull posted:It sounds like this is a pretty short run. Running two new circuits is not much harder then just running one, and then you don't really have to worry about it. Yea it's real short. Can you have two circuits in the same box and EMT? Or do they need to be completely separated?
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Dec 18, 2018 02:07
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Comrade Gritty posted:Yea it's real short. Can you have two circuits in the same box and EMT? Or do they need to be completely separated? That depends on how many wires for those circuits as well as their gauge. There are fill charts out there for number of allowed wires in both conduit and box sizes. Regarding box fill, all of the grounds only count as one wire by the way as far as the tables go. 1/2", the smallest trade size for EMT can hold 12 individual 14 gauge wires. You'll run into box fill problems before conduit fill. There's one more piece of advice regarding conduit. If you have any turns, use individual wires and use stranded cable instead of solid. Pulling solid wire around a turn is not fun.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:29
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GWBBQ posted:It's best to try looking at a really well-done diagram. Comrade Gritty posted:Yea it's real short. Can you have two circuits in the same box and EMT? Or do they need to be completely separated?
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Dec 18, 2018 02:32
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kid sinister posted:There's one more piece of advice regarding conduit. If you have any turns, use individual wires and use stranded cable instead of solid. Pulling solid wire around a turn is not fun.
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Dec 18, 2018 02:44
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kid sinister posted:That depends on how many wires for those circuits as well as their gauge. There are fill charts out there for number of allowed wires in both conduit and box sizes. Regarding box fill, all of the grounds only count as one wire by the way as far as the tables go. 1/2", the smallest trade size for EMT can hold 12 individual 14 gauge wires. You'll run into box fill problems before conduit fill. It’s not really conduit as I understand it. I think it’s considered a sleeve? I was planning on putting a 2 gang metal box with 3/4” emt up the wall where it will end with a bushing up into the joists and then run through the holes that already exist in the joists with power running through them. The EMT is just going to be ~2ft straight down the wall to protect the wire on the unfinished concrete foundation wall. It’s all indoors so the conduit isn’t otherwise needed. I was just going to use 12/2 romex and leave it insulated until it got into the box. Mimesweeper posted:You can't mix panels but you can have multiple circuits from the same panel. If you're already planning to add an outlet it would be very easy to bring two circuits to it instead. My main panel is full anyways, so it's all going into a sub panel that already exists. Just two independent breakers then? Or do I need to bond them or mark them somehow?
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Dec 18, 2018 07:00
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Comrade Gritty posted:It’s not really conduit as I understand it. I think it’s considered a sleeve? Yeah, this sounds good. If you are not sharing a neutral (and you wouldn't be w/ 2 12/2's) the breakers can be independent single-pole breakers. The grounds from the 12/2's need to be bonded together in the outlet box.
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Dec 18, 2018 16:10
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Blackbeer posted:Yeah, this sounds good. If you are not sharing a neutral (and you wouldn't be w/ 2 12/2's) the breakers can be independent single-pole breakers. The grounds from the 12/2's need to be bonded together in the outlet box. Awesome. Thanks a lot for everyone's help. Going to try to tackle adding those two circuits this weekend.
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Dec 18, 2018 17:54
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You can't put romex inside EMT, otherwise everything sounds fine. You'd have to put a box on top of it, bring the insulated romex into that through a proper connector and then you could leave it long enough to reach your new outlets and strip the outer insulation off the last bit and pull it down. Also would have to ground that box, so a tail off the ground screw in a wire nut with all the other grounds passing through the box.
Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 18:38
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Mimesweeper posted:You can't put romex inside EMT, otherwise everything sounds fine. You'd have to put a box on top of it, bring the insulated romex into that through a proper connector and then you could leave it long enough to reach your new outlets and strip the outer insulation off the last bit and pull it down. Also would have to ground that box, so a tail off the ground screw in a wire nut with all the other grounds passing through the box. Is that true? Romex is the same as NM right? which is goverened by 334 in the NEC, which has 334.15 (B) that states: quote:Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shell be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal condiit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix XW, or other approved means. It also calls out for unfinished basements specifically in 334.15 (C): quote:Nonmetallic-sheathed cable installed on the wall of an unfinished basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed conduit or tubing or shall be protected in accordance with 300.4. Conduit or tubing shall be provided with a suitable insulating bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters the raceway. The sheath of the nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall extend through the conduit or tubing and into the outlet or device box not less than 6 mm (1/4 in). That sounds to me (though I am not an expert!) that it's perfectly fine to run 12/2 through EMT as long as you're only using it to protect against physical damage, and you ensure that it's properly secured, and where the cable enters the EMT you have a bushing or adapter installed.
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Dec 18, 2018 19:12
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Yeah, Romex is just a brand of NM, like calling tissue paper Kleenex. I'm no expert either, it's been years since I did residential work and I'm just repeating what my boss has said in the past. Maybe it's not allowed in general and there's an exception for unfinished basements, cause it sure looks like you're reading the code right.
Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 19:17
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You can put romex in emt. Emt outdoors is a wet location and romex isn’t rated for that, so doing it outdoors would be a violation.
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Dec 18, 2018 19:34
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Romex in conduit is a big "maybe". Any conduit outdoors or underground is always considered a wet location, and romex isn't rated for it. You can't strip it and run it through conduit (as the individual conductors aren't rated to not be sheathed and aren't marked as THWN). Indoors, if your conduit run both begins and ends in an enclosure (for example, breaker box to outlet box) the run is limited to 10 feet. quote:312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures. Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 312.5(A) through (C). I use conduit when I need to protect romex from a short run (think unfinished basement walls up to the ceiling) because it needs to be protected from physical damage. But once I hit the ceiling line I usually just end the ocnduit and stick a bushing on it to protect from abrasion. You can install a jbox to transition from romex in conduit to bare romex if you want, just keep the total conduit run < 10ft. Just be sure to not let the romex dangle out of the unterminated end of your EMT, put a bushing on it. If you're going the conduit route, just buy a couple rolls of 12AWG THWN from Lowe's or whatever. It's like $30 for two 50 foot rolls (black and white). Use the EMT as ground path and pick up a bag of $5 ground pigtails 30 TO 50 FERAL HOG fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 20:13
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Also, this is a great situation to use a MWBC. Get a 12/3 Romex (or three rolls of THHN/THWN, Red/Black/White) and a 2 pole breaker and you can have two 20A 120V circuits with just 3 conductors.
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Dec 18, 2018 20:29
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BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:Romex in conduit is a big "maybe". You don't need a jbox on top of the conduit on the wall, just a connector with a plastic throat or a connector+plastic bushing. There's nothing wrong with the OP's plan, which is to run nm through floor joists and then protect it on the wall. I shouldn't have implied that nm in emt is always fine, but that code citation doesn't have anything to do with outlet/junction boxes.
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Dec 18, 2018 20:39
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Yeah that code section doesn't mention jboxes. Hmm, I was pretty sure there was some restriction of romex inside of conduit where both ends terminate in a jbox. I think once that happens you can no longer ignore fill %?
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Dec 18, 2018 20:55
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BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:Also, this is a great situation to use a MWBC. Get a 12/3 Romex (or three rolls of THHN/THWN, Red/Black/White) and a 2 pole breaker and you can have two 20A 120V circuits with just 3 conductors. Is there a benefit to MWBC besides only having to pull a single 12/3 instead of two 12/2? I ask mostly because I'm looking into it, and I'm seeing a lot of extra requirements like needing to ensure the circuits are on different bus bars, pigtails, etc. I guess the big benefit is that it would give a single breaker, so "UX" wise, the two outlets would turn on/off as if they were a single circuit, but power wise they're actually two 20amp circuits? It looks like if I were to do a MWBC, I'd just get something like https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-20-Amp-2-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-QO220CP/100032386 (I I have a Square D QO), wire the black (as usual) and the red conductor to the two different screws on that, the white to the neutral bus bar and the ground to the ground bus bar. I *think* that using 12/3 satisfies the requirement for grouping? Once It's in the box to terminate it, I can just run the black wire to the hot to outlet 1, red to hot on outlet 2, and then I need to make a pigtail and wire nut the neutrals and grounds together? Do I need t do anything else different from a a single pole 12/2 circuit? How do I tell if I'm putting the breaker so it's situated so each pole is on a different bus bar? Related, if I have a short run of EMT (2ft) that is on a concrete wall but isn't connected to the panel box (it's just physical protection coming down the foundation wall), does that need to be grounded somehow? If so is it enough to just add another pigtail from the outlet box to the ground wire in the Romex?
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Dec 18, 2018 21:21
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You have to follow the conduit fill limit for one conductor (53%?) whenever you have nm in conduit. Edit: Breaker would work if you go the shared neutral route. You have it right on wiring it. On a panel, every other breaker from top to bottom is a different phase, so those 2pole breakers will always pick up one of each phase on a single phase 240v service. On one side of your panel, breakers from top to bottom 1,3,5 etc are one phase, and 2,4,6 etc are another if that makes sense. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 21:21
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Comrade Gritty posted:Is there a benefit to MWBC besides only having to pull a single 12/3 instead of two 12/2? I ask mostly because I'm looking into it, and I'm seeing a lot of extra requirements like needing to ensure the circuits are on different bus bars, pigtails, etc. I guess the big benefit is that it would give a single breaker, so "UX" wise, the two outlets would turn on/off as if they were a single circuit, but power wise they're actually two 20amp circuits? Comrade Gritty posted:How do I tell if I'm putting the breaker so it's situated so each pole is on a different bus bar? Comrade Gritty posted:Related, if I have a short run of EMT (2ft) that is on a concrete wall but isn't connected to the panel box (it's just physical protection coming down the foundation wall), does that need to be grounded somehow? If so is it enough to just add another pigtail from the outlet box to the ground wire in the Romex?
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Dec 18, 2018 21:34
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Comrade Gritty posted:Is there a benefit to MWBC besides only having to pull a single 12/3 instead of two 12/2? I ask mostly because I'm looking into it, and I'm seeing a lot of extra requirements like needing to ensure the circuits are on different bus bars, pigtails, etc. I guess the big benefit is that it would give a single breaker, so "UX" wise, the two outlets would turn on/off as if they were a single circuit, but power wise they're actually two 20amp circuits? Honestly, with the length of your run and the fact that you're only doing this for two circuits, there's really no upside. If you were wiring an entire building or something, the cost savings in copper and conduit would be substantial. The additional cost for you to run larger conduit with an additional neutral is probably $20. quote:It looks like if I were to do a MWBC, I'd just get something like https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-20-Amp-2-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-QO220CP/100032386 (I I have a Square D QO), wire the black (as usual) and the red conductor to the two different screws on that, the white to the neutral bus bar and the ground to the ground bus bar. I *think* that using 12/3 satisfies the requirement for grouping? Once It's in the box to terminate it, I can just run the black wire to the hot to outlet 1, red to hot on outlet 2, and then I need to make a pigtail and wire nut the neutrals and grounds together? Do I need t do anything else different from a a single pole 12/2 circuit? You got it. quote:How do I tell if I'm putting the breaker so it's situated so each pole is on a different bus bar? A two pole breaker takes care of this for you as adjacent spaces are out of phase by design on your panel. quote:Related, if I have a short run of EMT (2ft) that is on a concrete wall but isn't connected to the panel box (it's just physical protection coming down the foundation wall), does that need to be grounded somehow? If so is it enough to just add another pigtail from the outlet box to the ground wire in the Romex? If it conducts electricity, ground it. You can use a grounding pigtail or grounding screw https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Combo-Grounding-Screw-10-Card-774042/100134430 Then use a self grounding outlet (they have a little tab on the top or bottom that connects the ground of the outlet to the conduit) https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton...1-0KW/205996792 30 TO 50 FERAL HOG fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 21:37
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Also, you might want to consider using dual function GFCI/CAFCI breakers. Hell, if you have a Square D panel some of them even support plug on neutral https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...0PDFC/204844661
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Dec 18, 2018 21:44
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BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:If it conducts electricity, ground it. You can use a grounding pigtail or grounding screw Ok, I will make sure this happens. If I use a self grounding outlet I don't need to wire the 12/3's ground wire to the outlet at all? I just wire that to the box itself and the self grounding takes care of it? BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:Also, you might want to consider using dual function GFCI/CAFCI breakers. Hell, if you have a Square D panel some of them even support plug on neutral Oh right, this was another area I was unsure of. I know that for an unfinished basement, GFCI is a requirement, but it appears that (C?)AFCI is not. I don't see any GFCI only breakers available for my panel at my local Home Depot/Lowes and the CAFCI breaker was more expensive then just getting GFCI outlets, and it had a pigtail, so I was thinking of just getting the GFCI outlets to be simpler and cheaper. I assume the plug on neutral *just* removes the pigtail, and you still wire the Romex to the neutral bus bar as usual? Is there any downside to using a CAFCI breaker in an area where it's not (as I understand it) required? I don't think I have *any* AFCI circuits in my house currently, this is going to power a half rack with an assortment of equipment, is there any issues with nuisance trips with something like that? (I know there are nuisance trips for GFCI with some appliances).
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Dec 18, 2018 22:00
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Comrade Gritty posted:I assume the plug on neutral *just* removes the pigtail, and you still wire the Romex to the neutral bus bar as usual? It removes the pigtail which goes to the neutral bus bar. GFCI breakers you wire the neutral into the breaker itself so it can measure the difference and detect a ground fault.
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Dec 18, 2018 22:11
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Comrade Gritty posted:Ok, I will make sure this happens. If I use a self grounding outlet I don't need to wire the 12/3's ground wire to the outlet at all? I just wire that to the box itself and the self grounding takes care of it? Right quote:Oh right, this was another area I was unsure of. You can still find AFCI only or GFCI only breakers if you look but the cost difference is minimal and the 2014 NEC basically requires AFCI everywhere. So if you had an area that required GFCI and AFCI your only option was to use an AFCI breaker ($$) and also GFCI outlets ($$$$). There were also originally two types of AFCI breakers for handling different kinds of faults. They've been merged together into CAFCI (Combination Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter). It's cheaper and easier to just use a dual function breaker for areas that require both types of protection (Bathrooms, Kitchens, etc) and it's also easier to just use the same type of breaker throughout the panel rather than keeping track of which circuits just need CAFCI and which need both. All of a sudden, you're using dual function breakers on every circuit you can. As for nuisance trips, I wouldn't put your AC or anything with a big compressor (fridge) on one but other than that you should be fine. I personally like going the dual function route, because that means instead of using a GFCI outlet I can use a type 3 SPD outlet. I've got a Leviton 51120-1 at the panel and I'll be putting a Leviton 52240-MSA on the meter when I do my 200A service upgrade if DQE will allow it. 30 TO 50 FERAL HOG fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 22:43
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And again, for reference I have a Synology rackmount NAS, beefy plex server, and quite a few amplifiers running on a dual function GFCI/CAFCI breaker and have had exactly 0 nuisance trips.
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Dec 18, 2018 22:48
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They also make dual function outlets now as well.
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Dec 18, 2018 23:20
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I did not know that. Dope.
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Dec 18, 2018 23:25
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Kitchen outlets (fridge included) are required to be arc fault protected. Air handlers and unfinished basements are not, though it wouldn’t hurt to AF protect this run.
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Dec 18, 2018 23:35
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Alright. Dual function breaker it is. I peaked inside my panel and I don’t appear to have the kind of panel that supports the plug in neutral so I’ll have to get the pigtail kind but that doesn’t seem bad (just less organized inside the panel). Thanks a lot for all of the really great information!
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Dec 18, 2018 23:48
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Comrade Gritty posted:Alright. Dual function breaker it is. I peaked inside my panel and I don’t appear to have the kind of panel that supports the plug in neutral so I’ll have to get the pigtail kind but that doesn’t seem bad (just less organized inside the panel). Don’t quote me on this but I think with the Square D breakers you still use the plug on neutral breaker if your panel doesn’t support it. They still have an extra screw terminal for a pigtail that you have to manually connect.
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Dec 19, 2018 00:34
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Speaking of AFCIs. I have one that's tripping occasionally. It's the only AFCI in the panel (place built in 2004, only protects the bedroom). It's a ~2004 Cutler Hammer panel, with I assume CH breakers. Here's the catch. The ONLY things using power in the bedroom are a ceiling fan that stays on 24/7, and a night light (it's tripped without the night light plugged in). There's been a couple of occasions when it refused to reset for a bit, then reset fine a bit later. The panel sits next to my desk, and I've heard it trip once. No buzzing or anything, and the breaker wasn't warm immediately after, so I doubt it's an overload (and I was able to reset it immediately after). Sometimes we plug in a vacuum in there, but it's never tripped while vacuuming. Only at random with only the fan running. I'm assuming I need to open up the wall box and the ceiling fan wiring above the canopy and check for loose connections? I've already been into the wiring at the lower end of the fan to install a light kit, everything was fine in there. Anything else that might cause it, such as a dying fan? Dying capacitor in the fan? The fan is 14 years old, but works fine.
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Dec 19, 2018 06:48
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Jeez, two pole, 20 amp combination CAFCI/GFCI breakers for a Square D QO panels are apparently expensive and nearly impossible to find. None of the electrical supply shops near me carry them apparently, Home Depot and Lowes both list them on their website, but don't ship them and aren't in stock within 100 miles. I managed to find them on Amazon for $116. At least I only need one of them!
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Dec 19, 2018 14:13
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Comrade Gritty posted:Jeez, two pole, 20 amp combination CAFCI/GFCI breakers for a Square D QO panels are apparently expensive and nearly impossible to find. You could get two single-pole breakers and tie them together. Square D breakers have a hole through the handle so you can put a wire or clip through both of them so that if one trips, the other is shut off with it. Arc fault protection saves children's lives and saves your house from burning down due to an arc within the wire run (in the walls). This is a new, short, exposed run; if you don't have children in your basement I wouldn't put AF in if it were my house.
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Dec 19, 2018 14:20
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Yeah if it's that much trouble to find, just do a GFCI breaker. Lot easier to track down https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-Qwik-Gard-20-Amp-2-Pole-GFCI-Breaker-QO220GFICP/100194077
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Dec 19, 2018 16:13
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I'm working on a custom hidden fort project for my kids and looking to hardwire an LED light in in the most benign and safe way I can come up with. I'm working with an Ubiquiti 24V PoE injector, strands of cat5e that I had in the wall already and some thermostat-grade paid of wire going to the source. For a 4w LED element this is pretty light weight, but I still want to overbuild this stretch. If one were in the over-engineering mood, would it be prudent to install a 1A or .5A fuse on this stretch of wire before power is injected? The PoE injector itself is rated for 12W at 24V with I'm assuming an internal fuse for short protection, but I'd rather make this thing kid proof as far as I can go.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:48
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You can’t just grab power out of the cat5. There’s a negotiation that happens between the end point and your PoE switch (in this case, your injector) as part of the 802.11at/af protocol You’ll need a PoE splitter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MOIDXZ0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_qeSgCb600D8V7
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Dec 19, 2018 23:08
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BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:You can’t just grab power out of the cat5. There’s a negotiation that happens between the end point and your PoE switch (in this case, your injector) as part of the 802.11at/af protocol Ubiquiti uses a weird non-standard passive 24V POE
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Dec 19, 2018 23:16
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dietcokefiend posted:I'm working on a custom hidden fort project for my kids and looking to hardwire an LED light in in the most benign and safe way I can come up with. I'm working with an Ubiquiti 24V PoE injector, strands of cat5e that I had in the wall already and some thermostat-grade paid of wire going to the source. For a 4w LED element this is pretty light weight, but I still want to overbuild this stretch. If one were in the over-engineering mood, would it be prudent to install a 1A or .5A fuse on this stretch of wire before power is injected? The PoE injector itself is rated for 12W at 24V with I'm assuming an internal fuse for short protection, but I'd rather make this thing kid proof as far as I can go. Cat5 can be anything from 22-26awg and 26 is rated for 1A so that fuse should be fine.
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Dec 19, 2018 23:18
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