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The No-God. He claims that it'll center around the boy and be similar to Blood Meridian.quote:Isn't it because the books are guaranteed to not have Proyas and Saubon in? That would be good enough reason for me. In fact, I've made it clear in the past that I won't likely bother with the No-God since Proyas became my emergent favorite and...welp. I also miss Conphas though. He was wasted. 
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Dec 24, 2018 07:03
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Isn't this entire series written around Bakker realizing the Christian God can be mean? I'd say its stronger than that - the second trilogy is about how the Christian God cannot help but be mean. That any omniscient being will inherently be completely alien an unknowable. As Kelhus tells Proyas, "the God is nothing human". And, eternal damnation is so grossly out of proportion with any earthly, finite sin, then any God supporting it must be psychotically cruel and malicious. It's not an especially profound philosophical point, but like the free-will/introspection illusion stuff from the first trilogy he treats it with a disgust and existential terror that I really enjoy. He treats psychology and philosophy in a way most people treat body-horror, which is a way better aesthetic than his actual scenes of body-horror. If there's any proper lit that treads the same ground I'd devour that poo poo in a heartbeat.
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Dec 24, 2018 13:22
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Pleiades posted:The No-God. He claims that it'll center around the boy and be similar to Blood Meridian. Blood Meridian sounds like a special move from a JRPG Strom Cuzewon posted:I'd say its stronger than that - the second trilogy is about how the Christian God cannot help but be mean. That any omniscient being will inherently be completely alien an unknowable. As Kelhus tells Proyas, "the God is nothing human". And, eternal damnation is so grossly out of proportion with any earthly, finite sin, then any God supporting it must be psychotically cruel and malicious. A priest once told me that damnation isn't really eternal. He said, depending on your sins, you may spend ten thousands of years in the fires of hell, but eventually the fire will have purified your soul and you'll be forgiven. God is the god of love, after all.
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Dec 24, 2018 13:29
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Libluini posted:Blood Meridian sounds like a special move from a JRPG Nice, but not very doctrinal. Blood Meridian is a good book and might as well be fantasy the way it is presented, so if you can read Bakker you can certainly read it. If nothing else it’s a much better use of a much shorter time.
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Dec 24, 2018 13:34
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'd say its stronger than that - the second trilogy is about how the Christian God cannot help but be mean. That any omniscient being will inherently be completely alien an unknowable. As Kelhus tells Proyas, "the God is nothing human". And, eternal damnation is so grossly out of proportion with any earthly, finite sin, then any God supporting it must be psychotically cruel and malicious. It’s not really literature, but are you familiar with Ligotti?
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Dec 24, 2018 14:35
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:It’s not really literature, but are you familiar with Ligotti? I am not, but his collections on kindle are cheap, so I'm about to uh... Take the plunge.
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Dec 24, 2018 14:47
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Man, this series has a lot of hate-readers. I thought Bakker had said he had two more books in mind to wrap up the series altogether. But I can't recall where I read that now.
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Dec 24, 2018 19:35
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Memnaelar posted:Man, this series has a lot of hate-readers. Wasn’t that before the great ordeal/ unholy consult? Bakker manages in some way to invoke some kind of emotion in his readers in contrast to most other authors, which is a good thing. Or to put it like this, there are a whole lot of fantasy writers that writes horrible and boring fiction while not getting close to the same vitriol as Bakker.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:35
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Cardiac posted:Wasn’t that before the great ordeal/ unholy consult? There's a Reddit thread from two years ago that indicate that he was going to do a two-part No-God series once he finished up the Unholy Consult to wrap up the Judging Eye series. But it sounds like he's had issues getting traction since then, given posts from this year. It's just a shame that there aren't many vocally positive readers who liked the way TUC wrapped. I thought it was reasonably fitting, for the end of a second series, but kind of a bummer if it doesn't get a proper wrap-up with a final series that at least tries to grapple with the last few questions he seemed to purposefully leave open.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:42
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Yeah I enjoyed The Unholy Consult and think it's strange people are treating it like it's the definitive end to the story that makes all seven books pointless. Like I'm wondering what ending people were expecting from the second of three trilogies in "the second apocalypse" that they're upset they didn't get.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:53
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I defended Bakker for years, I really loved the first three books, they were a great riff on the crusades in an interesting world and almost no authors have done Aliens VS. Wizards as a theme. The non-men were fascinating. The last two books were super poo poo snuff porn, the plot muddled, and I can no longer defend the blatant misogyny the dude rolls around in. The opportunity for cosmic bio-horror was pissed down the well in favor of dudes skullfucking each other and whalemothers. gently caress it. I was stoked on a "bad guys win ending", because that is so rare in our era of crap power fantasy, but he didn't even have the balls or talent to deliver that succinctly. 
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Dec 24, 2018 20:58
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You know that bit at the start of TUC when everybody is getting rowdy and weird, and some dude is really rude and undecorous and then Proyas loving decks him? (or maybe slit his throat?) I would have been fine with them then eating him. That's just on the right side of the line between "this book depicts gross horrible things" and "this book is gross and horrible". Instead, we got a dude licking pus from a radioactive leper, before raping and eating him. That's the exact point Bakker lost me. Or the dragon obsessed with "cunny". Jfc.
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Dec 24, 2018 22:07
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Cunny liking dragon is easily the highlight of the series, and would also make a good username
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Dec 24, 2018 22:08
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I was perfectly fine with the ending. In fact, I loved it. Well, for the wrong reasons, but I had no problem with the ending. I actually liked the gay cannibal holocaust and thought it was beautifully written. It's the aftermath of that which caused me to rage quit. My poor Proyas. He had some nice flashbacks and involved Akka and they went nowhere. BOOO.
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Dec 25, 2018 18:52
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Pleiades posted:
 Whatever you say, sane everyday person.
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Dec 26, 2018 01:18
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I'm on the second book and I'm loving them so far but what in the gently caress is wrong with this author? His female characters and the rape every other page is....a bit much.
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Dec 27, 2018 18:02
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Space Monster posted:I'm on the second book and I'm loving them so far but what in the gently caress is wrong with this author? His female characters and the rape every other page is....a bit much. *whispering around the rest of the thread* "Hush guys, nobody tell him yet. Observe this from a distance. Take only pictures, leave only footprints". Seriously now: Sounds like my own experience. Hope you keep enjoying it, but for many the weird/disappointing parts start eclipsing the good a bit further up the road.
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Dec 27, 2018 18:28
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Space Monster posted:I'm on the second book and I'm loving them so far but what in the gently caress is wrong with this author? His female characters and the rape every other page is....a bit much. On the bright side, in the next trilogy he starts to treat the men as contemptously as he does the women? And I'm a person who actually largely likes the work, even with the big glaring warts.
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Dec 27, 2018 20:25
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'd say its stronger than that - the second trilogy is about how the Christian God cannot help but be mean. That any omniscient being will inherently be completely alien an unknowable. As Kelhus tells Proyas, "the God is nothing human". And, eternal damnation is so grossly out of proportion with any earthly, finite sin, then any God supporting it must be psychotically cruel and malicious. Moby Dick for the first part at least, the entire deal with the whale is a bunch of people trying to confront the unknowable and failing. No black demon jizz.
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Dec 28, 2018 00:30
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Space Monster posted:I'm on the second book and I'm loving them so far but what in the gently caress is wrong with this author? His female characters and the rape every other page is....a bit much. he writes fantasy novels is the main problem
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Dec 28, 2018 00:46
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Moby Dick for the first part at least, the entire deal with the whale is a bunch of people trying to confront the unknowable and failing. No black demon jizz. What do you think oil is
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Dec 28, 2018 02:06
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:What do you think oil is 
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Dec 28, 2018 03:53
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lol @ the edited OP Are the last couple of books seriously just pages and pages of rape and murder? Amethyst fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 07:04
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Strom Cuzewon posted:
Oh.
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Jan 4, 2019 07:08
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It's OK, there are also nonsensical plot twists along with the rape and murder.
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Jan 4, 2019 07:29
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Amethyst posted:lol @ the edited OP No. But people get interestingly upset about Bakker in ways that other authors don’t get. As example, known horrible author Kevin Anderson doesn’t get close to the same vitriol here.
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Jan 4, 2019 08:09
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Amethyst posted:lol @ the edited OP It's just the one extended rape cannibal leper scene. It just kinda sticks in the mind a bit. The rest is pretty drat great - body-horror-Moria, timeless/zen assassins, trippy visions of hell, Akka yelling at trees.
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Jan 4, 2019 10:25
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Cardiac posted:No. I see you have never visited the Dune thread. (Though it's as much Brian Herbert hate as KJA hate.)
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Jan 4, 2019 20:57
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Cardiac posted:No. You are not wrong. But then again, as others have said, part of that added vitriol comes from seeing wasted potential. Few people get mad when some crap hack shits out a crap book. But seeing someone with at least some goo ideas trip on their literary dick and ruin something interesting, you feel you have actually lost something.
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Jan 5, 2019 03:54
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People don't like Bakker because he says some dumb and creepy poo pooquote:I have a very grim, very pessimistic view of male sexuality. In NP, for instance, one of the ‘future facts’ referenced is the discovery of a ‘rape module’ in male brains. It seems to be the case, for instance, that ‘male sexual vigilance’ is keyed to unconscious estimations of female vulnerability, that some men, at least, seem to track women according to automatic estimates of their ‘rapability.   quote:And we find ourselves in this very peculiar paradox, where the gradual political and economic ascendency of women (in the West, at least) is accompanied by a growing compliance to the dehumanizing demands of the male gaze. And we have this crazy situation where women escape traditional gendered oppression, only to find themselves caught in the vise of a more insiduous, nihilistic form (Esmenet, anyone?). They’ve escaped forced female circumcision only to want vaginal plastic surgery. That last sentence is so cosmically dumb. I mean what the gently caress.
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Jan 5, 2019 07:21
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vortmax posted:I see you have never visited the Dune thread. (Though it's as much Brian Herbert hate as KJA hate.) Probably because I read Children of Dune after Dune and then felt like not continuing the series, so I have never needed to go down that specific rabbit hole. This was also like 20 years ago. Recently read God Emperor though. Sephyr posted:You are not wrong. In my experience almost all authors fail to properly end a series, so I don’t get upset about stuff like that. I would also say that most sci-fi /fantasy tries to come up with an interesting premise/world, which they then fail to make into an actually good storyline. Based on this I still think Bakker made it rather good, although I can understand why some don’t like it. General Battuta posted:People don't like Bakker because he says some dumb and creepy poo poo Sci-fi/fantasy writers are weird, news at ten. I couldn’t really give a poo poo what opinions a random author has (with some exceptions). It is like asking an artist on his/hers opinions, you know they are going to be weird and out of touch.
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Jan 5, 2019 07:43
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Goons have eccentric approaches to random authors. The fantasy/scifi general thread which I had never visited got bizarrely personal about me for saying (a) Malazan has some lovably goofy moments and (b) Solzhenitsyn was bad
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Jan 5, 2019 10:30
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quote:But then again, as others have said, part of that added vitriol comes from seeing wasted potential. Few people get mad when some crap hack shits out a crap book. But seeing someone with at least some goo ideas trip on their literary dick and ruin something interesting, you feel you have actually lost something. This is generally how I see it. That, and he dropped the ball big time in TUC. Thousand Fold Thought was a near perfect ending. Pleiades fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 23:39
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:Goons have eccentric approaches to random authors. The fantasy/scifi general thread which I had never visited got bizarrely personal about me for saying (a) Malazan has some lovably goofy moments and (b) Solzhenitsyn was bad Well, to be fair that are some really bizarre opinions.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:06
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Pleiades posted:This is generally how I see it. That, and he dropped the ball big time in TUC. Thousand Fold Thought was a near perfect ending. It was a good ending, but it was also the book that burned me out on the series way before the new trilogy. The conclusion came at the expense of all non-Kellhus characters, as we have mentioned here before. Everyone is a thrall, a corpse or a neutered joke. I mean, that was also the case in the previous book, but by TUC, it's basically official and on their nametags.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:19
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There are some loveable goofy moments in Malazan, but there's also a load of moments where it tries really loving hard to be funny and it's just tedious. I know half the joke is that Kruppe is trying too hard with his wordplay, and occasionally fluffs it. But i find my eyes glazing over a lot. And Bugg/Tehol are much better when it's a fake Carry On movie, rather than a fake Withnail and I.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:19
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Sephyr posted:It was a good ending, but it was also the book that burned me out on the series way before the new trilogy. The conclusion came at the expense of all non-Kellhus characters, as we have mentioned here before. Everyone is a thrall, a corpse or a neutered joke. The difference is palpable between TFT Kellhus and "I will tell you I am insane and this will destroy you, whilst I bugger your sobbing form, and later manipulate you into engaging in a radioactive death orgy." TFT was a decent end to an exploration of how false messiahs can rise to power and how the crusades would have gone with laser beam magic. TUC was a few glimmers of fascinating plot concepts buried in a mountain of poo poo and snuff porn.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:32
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Libluini posted:Well, to be fair that are some really bizarre opinions.
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Jan 6, 2019 14:16
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Rime posted:The difference is palpable between TFT Kellhus and "I will tell you I am insane and this will destroy you, whilst I bugger your sobbing form, and later manipulate you into engaging in a radioactive death orgy." No argument there whatsoever. Not to mention that there were still side-characters who were cool/interesting then, which made you invested. Xinemus. Conphas. Cnaiur when he wasn't too deep into his "avatar of edgelordness" phase. The only new character I felt any investment and curiosity about in the second Trilogy was Cleric. Wutteat the cranky dragon was amusing. Serwa fighting Cunny Dragon was badass. Other than that, it's just a muddle of future corpses in my mind. Like trying to remember the group dynamics of all the gore fodder of the whole Saw series by alphabetic order.
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Jan 6, 2019 14:21
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:even if you wrote the best book in the world it would automatically, retroactively become very Bad as soon as Jordan Peterson wrote a gushing intro for a re-release What???
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Jan 6, 2019 15:02
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