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Also interesting is that Scytal was a facedancer when talking with Maud'dib, but a master when talking with Odrade. One might say he was 'promoted', but then why would a lowly facedancer be put in charge of the attempt on Maud'dib? I think that this indicates an evolution of the dancer/master separation, that sort of goes parallel to their belief on the tyrant, possibly. Speaking of, I've used the Tlielax cant in discussions concerning theology. "That which you cannot control, surely is God's will"
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Dec 29, 2018 02:15
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It's funny how the BG and the BT mirror each other. When discussing the origin of Honored Matres, they talk about how they were a repressed class that revolted, and how the repressed can make terrible masters because they can seek vengeance on the former oppressors which leads to wider oscillations as the pattern repeats. Meanwhile, this is very similar to what happens with the BT the facedancers. They made an underclass that they kept pressing until they revolted in the scattering
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Dec 29, 2018 02:28
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In universe most do not know how the bene gesserit work, other memory is a secret Iirc and how the become reverend mothers is deffo a secret or at least not known widely; also their powers beyond stuff like truthsaying are not particularly known They want the kwisatz haderach because apparently only a dude can access male other memory and reverend mothers are already secret super beings basically so a male with those powers would be unstoppable so critically they want that person to be under the thumb of a bene gesserit service for their ends of controlling politics Unfortunately when you got a mentat duke reverend mother triple combo it didn't work out for them. Leto Ii basically mocks them for thinking they could control someone like him and I think on the later non kja sequels it's mentioned they kill any male whose power gets too close to that of Paul or leto to avoid another repeat
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Dec 29, 2018 04:13
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:both! It sounded right but I'm glad you had the text on hand. A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Also interesting is that Scytal was a facedancer when talking with Maud'dib, but a master when talking with Odrade. One might say he was 'promoted', but then why would a lowly facedancer be put in charge of the attempt on Maud'dib? I think that this indicates an evolution of the dancer/master separation, that sort of goes parallel to their belief on the tyrant, possibly. Similar to the Fremen "When God wants someone to die, he causes them to go to the place they will die." As for Scytale, I think it was a promotion, yes. In the Encyclopedia it mentions that his background was espionage and performing with fellow thespians was his cover. So he was part of the lower class in their society. However, when he dies he is exultant that "his" plan worked and now the BT can recover their lost lives. His reanimation must have been the incentive and reward for his taking on such a dangerous task. No such luck for their fellow conspirators, like Bijaz, who himself laments that he is just a tool for his masters to use (also, he failed in his job since Idaho was supposed to have killed Paul or been killed himself). Malcolm XML posted:Unfortunately when you got a mentat duke reverend mother triple combo it didn't work out for them. Leto Ii basically mocks them for thinking they could control someone like him and I think on the later non kja sequels it's mentioned they kill any male whose power gets too close to that of Paul or leto to avoid another repeat I kinda figured at that point their breeders would be on to something else. After all, the Kwisatz Haderach was a particular solution to a distinct problem (or set of problems). It seemed like a one time thing, although it taught everyone a lot.
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Dec 29, 2018 04:28
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phasmid posted:I kinda figured at that point their breeders would be on to something else. After all, the Kwisatz Haderach was a particular solution to a distinct problem (or set of problems). It seemed like a one time thing, although it taught everyone a lot.
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Dec 29, 2018 12:47
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I finished "Dune Messiah" yesterday and I liked it in a way, but I feel like the last 25-30% of the book wasn't holding my interest as much, other than just being invested enough to want to see how it specifically played out. From what I read, the general consensus is if you like "Dune" then you should read "Dune Messiah," then continue on if you liked *that*. After the end of Dune Messiah, I feel like it's going to just keep going on and on like that forever. Is it worth continuing on if I'm kind of iffy on Dune Messiah? Is Children of Dune worth the read?
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Dec 29, 2018 18:51
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Children Of Dune picks up a few years later, and is more of Messiah but a bit more sloppy and kinda dumb. It's also what the fourth book uses to justify itself... it would be kind of confusing for you to go from 2 to 4 without reading like, a wiki, but that's where the style changes radically. for what it's worth, i read the dune series back before ebooks were even remotely useful things and my father was missing children of dune, so i skipped it since he thought it wouldn't really matter. He wasn't wrong. he basically explained leto's story in children of dune to me and i was prepped enough to read the best dune book that's not called dune
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Dec 29, 2018 19:35
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basic hitler posted:Children Of Dune picks up a few years later, and is more of Messiah but a bit more sloppy and kinda dumb. I started watching the "Children of Dune" series but only got about 30 minutes into it. I didn't like how Paul was always smiling and joking, as it seemed completely different than how I pictured his demeanor from the books. Is the show worth finishing as a primer if I was to start God Emperor, or should I just read the Wikipedia summary?
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Dec 29, 2018 19:53
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i hate the sci fi series, i'm not a good judge there. i know the dune series tries to be faithful to adapting the book. i'm not sure about children
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Dec 29, 2018 20:01
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MarksMan posted:I finished "Dune Messiah" yesterday and I liked it in a way, but I feel like the last 25-30% of the book wasn't holding my interest as much, other than just being invested enough to want to see how it specifically played out. From what I read, the general consensus is if you like "Dune" then you should read "Dune Messiah," then continue on if you liked *that*. After the end of Dune Messiah, I feel like it's going to just keep going on and on like that forever. Is it worth continuing on if I'm kind of iffy on Dune Messiah? Is Children of Dune worth the read? I just consider Messiah a proper coda to the first book, and to the tale of Paul, Jessica, Chani, and Alia. But mainly Paul. Somebody summed it up here best Read 1 and 2 if you want the story of Paul Read 3 and 4 if you want the story of Leto II Read 5 and 6 if you want the story of Frank Herbert
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Dec 29, 2018 22:41
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I'm as huge a fan of the original series as most of the rest of everyone posting in this thread seems to be, but I have one question. Why is Leto II called that, when Pauls first son - the one killed in a Sardukar raid, was named Leto, would presumably also be Leto II as Pauls father was Leto? This has legitimately kept me up some nights (because I had nothing else to worry about back then, and insomnia is a bitch - now I have plenty other things to worry about). basic hitler posted:i hate the sci fi series, i'm not a good judge there. Brian Eno did some great loving music for the series, though. Speaking of fanedits, I rather like the alternative edition redux, but I might be the only one who likes it better than Lynchs movie. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 23:09
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Also, Heretics of Dune has by far the device in science fiction that I would fear the most: The T-Probe. Imagine a device that completely shuts down your entire sensory organ leaving you floating in some void-space, as it individually traces every nerve and muscle in your entire body to create a digital framework from which it can manipulate your body with any sensation from pure pleasure to pure pain in order to get any thing out of you. All without leaving any marks on you, and the only way to even have a chance of not being its utter pawn is to make sure you're loaded to the gills with a drug or to be the product of a millennia-long breeding program. Oh, and even if you are loaded up with shere, that doesn't prevent the device from working - if you've got shere in you, it just has to do a lot more guessing, which likely involves even more pleasure and pain. That poo poo is loving terrifying. 
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Dec 30, 2018 01:05
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D. Ebdrup posted:I'm as huge a fan of the original series as most of the rest of everyone posting in this thread seems to be, but I have one question. Paul's first son never lived to inherit a title, so he doesn't get a regnal number. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regnal_number
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Dec 30, 2018 01:08
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Hannibal Rex posted:Paul's first son never lived to inherit a title, so he doesn't get a regnal number.
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Dec 30, 2018 01:16
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heretics and chapterhouse have some of the coolest worldbuilding it's just a shame everything is about imprinting on teenagers and magic mind control pussies
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Dec 30, 2018 01:35
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basic hitler posted:heretics and chapterhouse have some of the coolest worldbuilding it's just a shame everything is about imprinting on teenagers and magic mind control pussies Chapterhouse of Dune is the best loving cliffhanger of all time, and we'll be dangling forever because no sequels or prequels were ever written.
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Dec 30, 2018 01:43
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So, I just started listening to the audiobook again for what's probably the 50th time by now? Except this time I've managed to get my hands on the full-cast audiobook, and it's something else entirely (I'm used to the various versions Scott Brick has read over the years). Anyway, I noticed two things that I'm not sure I'd picked up on before: Paul is trained by Jessica in the Bene Gesserit ways from a very early age; this is implied by how detailed prana-bindu is (I believe somewhere it's hinted further that it's muscle and nerve training, with learning to move each muscle individually and with breath-training to activate certain (Pavlovian?) responses), along with the fact the's trained "in the minutiae of observation", as well as Mohiam remarking that she sees the signs all over him when admonishing Jessica to give him the full training. Another thing I picked up on is the fact that Paul has been having what he calls "dreams that were predictions" for a long time, going so far as to say "I dreamed of her once", implying that it happened a long time ago. So, even with very limited spice doses on Caladan, he was having prescient dreams long before he moved to Dune - just not waking ones (which is what, if I recall correctly, he starts having later). Does this mean that the BG training and mentat training he's received as a child is what lets him predict things in dreams, since presumably the spice dose he gets on Caladan is no bigger than that anyone else (including his mother, only one or two stages removed from the Kwizats Haderach) of his caste gets? Also, the faufreluches class system sounds rigid as gently caress, describing servants like serving wench, and a motto quoted in the Terminology Of The Imperium as: "A place for every man and every man in his place." BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Dec 30, 2018 |
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Dec 30, 2018 03:07
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I think it’s more his genetics that are the key element. The mental and BG training help him control and understand the visions and the spice enhances it (moreso with the Water of Life <-> Water of Death consumption), but it’s his status as the male product of millennia of planned genetics that’s the key to his prescience.
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Dec 30, 2018 03:17
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Yeah, that's true - him being one step away from the Kwizats Haderach that BG bred for doesn't preclude him having most of the abilities, if not the ruthlessness that Leto II displays in going through with the Golden Path where Paul could not, because Paul was a true Atreides whereas the real Kwizats Haderach would've been the result of Atreides and Harkonnen traits. Also, Paul had a short life, didn't he? He's made Emperor at like 18, and dies around 44, if I recall correctly the timelines I've seen.
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Dec 30, 2018 03:24
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Kwisatz.
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Dec 30, 2018 03:30
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Quizats
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Dec 30, 2018 03:39
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He is the Quiznos Hierarchy.
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Dec 30, 2018 03:49
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Occasionally, working in a bookstore pays off. I don't think I've seen a copy of this come through the store before. And only  !
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Dec 30, 2018 04:35
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Wolfechu posted:Occasionally, working in a bookstore pays off. Lovely!
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Dec 30, 2018 04:49
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Cover art on point too
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Dec 30, 2018 05:01
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Nessus posted:Miles Teg is like a Super Saiyan or something so I assume they were doing some general improvement. Also going along with natural development. Makes one wonder how fast we could speed up evolution and what's entailed in trying. Teg is a badass but he's also a freak. They didn't expect him or else they would have prevented his capture (which might have also prevented his abilities being discovered). As for Paul, he's obsolete before his own death. Leto's grim - wicked - humor is often more moving than Paul's indecision. D. Ebdrup posted:The T-Probe Yes, even though the intrigues of the books are often so steeped in coercion, torture and espionage, this was probably the most striking physical device the future folk invented. The idea of a computer that maps your brain down to nervous responses is terrifying and although the concept is older than Dune, Herbert explained in a brief passage how bad the thing was. I imagine modern spies and counterintelligence are doing their best along such lines, since a machine like that could not just make you dance and sing on command, but also penetrate your inner mind and learn your thoughts as they occur.
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Dec 30, 2018 05:09
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Wolfechu posted:Occasionally, working in a bookstore pays off. Super jealous. I look for poo poo like this whenever I go to estate auctions.
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Dec 30, 2018 06:47
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I thought sheer was so your mind couldnt be copied post-mortem or by facedancers?
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Dec 30, 2018 08:39
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phasmid posted:
As the saying goes, if the brain was simple enough for us to understand it, we’d be so dumb we couldn’t.
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Dec 30, 2018 08:57
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basic hitler posted:I thought sheer was so your mind couldnt be copied post-mortem or by facedancers? Sheer workd against both face dancers and T-probes iirc.
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Dec 30, 2018 09:08
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Hannibal Rex posted:Paul's first son never lived to inherit a title, so he doesn't get a regnal number. Wikipedia posted:A notable exception to this rule is the German House of Reuss. This family has the particularity that every male member during the last centuries was named Heinrich, and all of them, not only the head of the family, were numbered. While the members of the elder branch were numbered in order of birth until the extinction of the branch in 1927, the members of the younger line were (and still are) numbered in sequences that began and ended roughly as centuries began and ended. This explains why the current (since 2012) head of the Reuss family is called Heinrich XIV, his late father Heinrich IV and his sons Heinrich XXIX and Heinrich V.
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Dec 30, 2018 09:31
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phasmid posted:Yes, even though the intrigues of the books are often so steeped in coercion, torture and espionage, this was probably the most striking physical device the future folk invented. The idea of a computer that maps your brain down to nervous responses is terrifying and although the concept is older than Dune, Herbert explained in a brief passage how bad the thing was. basic hitler posted:I thought sheer was so your mind couldnt be copied post-mortem or by facedancers? And it seems like the only way MIles Teg escapes it is through rogue Atreides genes which would likely have meant his death had BG known about it - so any other character in the theoretical history of the universe (except maybe sandtrout-/sandworm-Leto II?) would succumb to the T-probe.
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Dec 30, 2018 13:19
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D. Ebdrup posted:Yeah, that's true - him being one step away from the Kwizats Haderach that BG bred for doesn't preclude him having most of the abilities, if not the ruthlessness that Leto II displays in going through with the Golden Path where Paul could not, because Paul was a true Atreides whereas the real Kwizats Haderach would've been the result of Atreides and Harkonnen traits. Jessica was Vlad Harkonnen’s daughter, hence the Baron possessing Alia. Paul was at least a quarter Harkonnen. Not familiar enough with family trees to say exactly how he differed from the planned offspring of Paul(a) and Feyd.
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Dec 30, 2018 13:48
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I apologize if this has been brought up before in the thread (I'm speed-reading through a bit at a time), but has anyone thought about how Leto IIs Royal Rascal is controlled by his thoughts and it's more or less said explicitly that others see this as some sort of blasphemy against the proscriptions that came out of the Butlerian Jihad? The Royal Rascal is created by Ixians who it is claimed by the book are under increased surveilance by Leto II as a result of a project of theirs, but I wonder if this means that the Ixians are working on thinking machines, or something else? Is this the future averted by the Golden Path tha Siona sees? Presumably it's got little to do with Marty and Daniel (as a kid, I loved that one if the final "villains"/unknowns in the book share a first name with me) Also, speaking of Ix, probably one of my most favorite exchanges in the entire book happens when Bronso of Ix makes fun of basically everyone for not knowing that the Ixians are called that because they settled on the 9th planet of their solar system. Fuuuck, just thinking about the six books and the framing makes me appreciate it so much. How they appear to be half-told by "present-day historians" from the same era as the books are putitively set in (for example, the aforementioned interview with Bronso of Ix), and how the other part is some apparent-farfuture historians looking back to puzzle together pieces (the references to the readings of the archives from Stolen Journals at Dar-Es-Balat) - all of this is just the most amazing world-building, which seems to hint but never quite explicitly states that it's Bene Gesserits looking back. EDIT: Just finished reading the appendicies of the original book, and Appendix III in particular makes me wonder if that's a hint of someone knocking on the 4th wall. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Dec 30, 2018 |
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Dec 30, 2018 13:48
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I've made it about half-way through the thread and I won't bother to try and bring up topics which I've seen already discussed to some sort of conclusion - but a quick search tells me that there's been no mention of Dune Genesis, the essay that Frank Herbert wrote on his reasons for writing the original trilogy in the first place? So if you were to, you know, search for it you might find it and read it - it's only 3 1/2 pages long, and I'd really love to hear your thoughts on it.
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Dec 30, 2018 21:01
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Mister Speaker posted:Thanks! That means a lot.
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Dec 31, 2018 00:40
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I really dig your sound too, love the creepy ambient vibe and especially all the mechanical sounds.
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D. Ebdrup posted:I apologize if this has been brought up before in the thread (I'm speed-reading through a bit at a time), but has anyone thought about how Leto IIs Royal Rascal is controlled by his thoughts and it's more or less said explicitly that others see this as some sort of blasphemy against the proscriptions that came out of the Butlerian Jihad? The big thing Leto was trying to horsewhip the Ixians into making was the no-ship, I believe; Leto knew it was necessary, and that it was possible, but presumably he neither knew nor cared about all the fine details, so he just created the pressures on the Ixians that would lead them to eventually create what he needed. If he had foreseen Lord Cyber-T-Rex coming in about 200 years he probably would have just told the Ixians, "You need to make this now. I'll pay for it."
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Dec 31, 2018 01:00
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He should have jumped
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Dec 31, 2018 01:04
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THE ROYAL CART
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Dec 31, 2018 01:58
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Nessus posted:I figure that the Butlerian prohibitions are more cultural flinch-gross-out than having a literal list of "you can have microprocessors but they can't go over 3.9 gHz per core and only five cores max or else it becomes a Thinking Machine." The royal rascal probably just picks up on Leto's brainwave or has a joystick lodged in one of his ring segments (so to speak) but it comes off as a horrifying automatic instead of a good honest suspensor globe or windtrap, which are all fine. EDIT: Wait, me replying to this post means I've read all of the thread, doesn't it? That was great ride, almost as great as one you could have on a Royal Rascal going down the cliffs from the palace to the Festival City. Definitely worth its gold rating. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Dec 31, 2018 |
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Dec 31, 2018 22:25
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