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enraged_camel posted:Okay, so over the past few weeks I had many conversations with friends, relatives and acquaintances about the whole Syria situation. Some "stream of consciousness" formed by my unofficial and non-scientific polling of public opinion: Source please. Turkish militias paraded through border towns announcing mosul would be a new territory. Also turkry occupies afrin. So this sounds like bullshit "we promise not to permaccupy a territory" while we permaccupy territory nonsense.
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Jan 5, 2019 07:16
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Grape posted:You seem to be taking a lot of nationalist and racist propaganda at face value in here, or I'm reading your wording wrong. You are reading his wording wrong. enraged_camel was very specific that he was trying to lay out the common ideas and beliefs circulating in Turkey, NOT specify his own opinions on the issue. He may very well agree that the YPG should not have a country, but that was not something he said in his post. Regardless of the anecdotal nature of these observations, they are interesting and valuable and you should not discourage anyone from sharing them. LeoMarr posted:Source please. Turkish militias paraded through border towns announcing mosul would be a new territory. Also turkry occupies afrin. So this sounds like bullshit "we promise not to permaccupy a territory" while we permaccupy territory nonsense. are you illiterate? the source was personal conversations. Like do you need the sources names and numbers before you can judge whether those raelly were anyone's opinions? Squalid fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 07:24
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Squalid posted:You are reading his wording wrong. enraged_camel was very specific that he was trying to lay out the common ideas and beliefs circulating in Turkey, NOT specify his own opinions on the issue. He may very well agree that the YPG should not have a country, but that was not something he said in his post. Regardless of the anecdotal nature of these observations, they are interesting and valuable and you should not discourage anyone from sharing them. "Makes sense to me: nobody wants a hostile nation-state forming right at its border."
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Jan 5, 2019 07:25
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Grape posted:"Makes sense to me: nobody wants a hostile nation-state forming right at its border." Yes that makes a lot of sense. It is an extremely common and normal opinion. You might disagree how hostile Rojava would be towards Turkey but you're a fool if you think Turks don't conceptualize the issue in this way.
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Jan 5, 2019 07:28
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Grape posted:"Makes sense to me: nobody wants a hostile nation-state forming right at its border." Do you have an objection to this? Does it not make sense to you?
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Jan 5, 2019 09:29
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Why is Turkey afraid of a neighboring, ethnically based state being hostile? Have they treated that ethnia like poo poo, expelled it from the territories where they lived or something like that?
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Jan 5, 2019 09:44
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Dawncloack posted:Why is Turkey afraid of a neighboring, ethnically based state being hostile? Have they treated that ethnia like poo poo, expelled it from the territories where they lived or something like that? It's a bit more complicated than that.
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Jan 5, 2019 10:01
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Volkerball posted:It's a bit more complicated than that. Oh rigt, they did a genocide as well
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Jan 5, 2019 10:07
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I know, and I dont want to have a massive derail, it is interesting to hear from Enraged_camel what the average Still, I think self reflection in what we post would do us all good. For me it's thinking that it's a bit more complicated than that. If you could substantiate what you said that'd be awesome, so that "it's a bit more complicated than that" doesn't become a thought-stopper.
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Jan 5, 2019 10:10
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It's not really that complicated though. Turkeys claim to many of its current territories was built upon a foundation of genocide and oppression and that makes them very worried when the main claimant of roughly half of their territories starts organizing with the intent goal of seeking sovereignty. As renowned forums poet Kurnugia put it: Kurnugia posted:Oh rigt, they did a genocide as well If you want a visual representation of why nationalists in Turkey get antsy when Kurds organize anywhere in proximity to or within Turkey I give you this old CIA Kurdistan map.  Turkeys entire national myth is built around pretending events like the Armenian genocide never happened and that oppression of other ethnic groups within Turkey is cool and good. Of course civilians are going to feel good about squashing kurds because they bring up lots of uncomfortable questions of what Turkey is that people would rather not think too hard about. The nation never processed these events in the way that they actually happened. There's so much blood on both sides and due to the never-ending loop of totalitarianism and liberalization Turkey seems to be caught up in it keeps re-igniting. Gotta kill the others or they kill us first. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 10:40
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Dawncloack posted:I know, and I dont want to have a massive derail, it is interesting to hear from Enraged_camel what the average Turkey has fine relations with Iraqi Kurdistan, and Erdogan actually came into power and maintained it in the early going in part because of the Kurdish vote. It was the degradation of the ceasefire agreements in 2014-2015 that reopened the PKK-Turkey can of worms. Turkey bears the majority of the blame as the greater power in the equation, and their crackdowns and militantly antagonistic attitude during the siege of Kobane were the major driver in the breakdown, but the PKK still jumped right in with military action, and on the fringes, the old school suicide bombings and whatnot, which the current situation wouldn't have been possible without. Throughout the "peace process," there were a lot of people on both sides who just wanted to get back to fighting, and they won out. It's a lovely situation.
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Jan 5, 2019 10:48
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Volkerball posted:Turkey has fine relations with Iraqi Kurdistan, and Erdogan actually came into power and maintained it in the early going in part because of the Kurdish vote. It was the degradation of the ceasefire agreements in 2014-2015 that reopened the PKK-Turkey can of worms. Turkey bears the majority of the blame as the greater power in the equation, and their crackdowns and militantly antagonistic attitude during the siege of Kobane were the major driver in the breakdown, but the PKK still jumped right in with military action, and on the fringes, the old school suicide bombings and whatnot, which the current situation wouldn't have been possible without. Throughout the "peace process," there were a lot of people on both sides who just wanted to get back to fighting, and they won out. It's a lovely situation. You see, the people having their towns and homes bulldozed are morally equivalent to the state perpetrating it. I don't see any reason to defend Turkey, and added context is nice, but you are blending the treatment of an ethnic group with the actions of a separatist/terrorist group in your explanation. They are actively ethnically cleansing and resettling people in Afrin, and there is no reason they won't do it elsewhere in Syria. Its a lovely situation indeed, and you ascribed the majority of the blame in the equation to the Turkish government, true. That doesn't address the people who have to live through it, and the Turkification of the Kurds has been an ongoing process. What they are doing is wrong, right? You would say it is in Homs, and certainly wouldn't try to carry water for the Assad regime in a way to provide "context". While that is great context, we would be right to address the problems with the narratives being presented.
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Jan 5, 2019 11:04
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The main narrative being Erdogan throwing the kurds under the bus the second he decided that this democracy thing was overrated. Like there's no way around it, he torpedoed the attempts at reconciliation to make them the scapegoats for his authoritarianism.
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Jan 5, 2019 11:11
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MiddleOne posted:It's not really that complicated though. Turkeys claim to many of its current territories was built upon a foundation of genocide and oppression But enough about the USA. quote:and that makes them very worried when the main claimant of roughly half of their territories starts organizing with the intent goal of seeking sovereignty. If by “organizing” you mean “slaughtering massive numbers of civilians over a period of several decades”, you may have a point. quote:If you want a visual representation of why nationalists in Turkey get antsy when Kurds organize anywhere in proximity to or within Turkey I give you this old CIA Kurdistan map. You say “nationalists” but I don’t know a single person who identifies as a Turk who is supportive of Kurdistan. The liberal party in Turkey (CHP) was supportive of HDP for a while, and went so far as to “lend” them some of their votes so that they could reach the 10% threshold for parliamentary representation, but then it turned out that HDP’s leaders were in cohorts with, and receiving directions from, PKK. They lost support after that. quote:Turkeys entire national myth Is it any more a “myth” than that of, say, the USA, which is also composed of numerous ethnic groups and minorities (most of which are also treated horribly)? quote:is built around pretending events like the Armenian genocide never happened and that oppression of other ethnic groups within Turkey is cool and good. Of course civilians are going to feel good about squashing kurds because they bring up lots of uncomfortable questions of what Turkey is that people would rather not think too hard about. The nation never processed these events in the way that they actually happened. I don’t deny the Armenian genocide, and I’m happy to report that, while its denial is still the official policy, many Turks I keep in touch with accept that it happened during the final days of the previous regime. But here is the thing: Turkey is obviously a mix of many different ethnic groups. If every one of those were granted sovereignty, Turkey would cease to exist. Why do you blame Turks for being against that outcome? What country in the world is OK with parts of it splitting off to form new countries? Furthermore, why is “ethnic group” the criteria that is used? How does the USA view its own segregationists? Could, say, California secede from the union if its people voted for it? (That’s a rhetorical question obviously. Last time there was a serious secessionist movement in the USA, it, too, was brutally oppressed, and the secessionists were branded “traitors”. And we all are familiar with the present-day discourse surrounding the American Civil War.) Anyways, my point is, passing judgment is easy. What is not easy is understanding the complex historical and geopolitical realities of conflicts. Americans in general aren’t used to this, because America is geographically isolated, surrounded by friendly neighbors, and is not burdened by the types of gripes and feuds the Old World is. So I’m sharing my perspective as a Turk, and on this dead gay forum it’s probably a unique perspective. I’ve lost friends and relatives to PKK’s suicide bombers. When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s I would be scared to walk down the street, wondering which car or bus would blow up. You don’t know what that is like, and hopefully you never will. All I ask is you dial back your cynicism and make an effort to actually understand the people you are criticizing.
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Jan 5, 2019 11:33
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Coldwar timewarp posted:You see, the people having their towns and homes bulldozed are morally equivalent to the state perpetrating it. I don't see any reason to defend Turkey, and added context is nice, but you are blending the treatment of an ethnic group with the actions of a separatist/terrorist group in your explanation. It's kind of an ethnic and PKK issue all wrapped into one. While Turkey is behind a collective punishment campaign in Rojava that targets Syrian Kurds as a whole, they aren't going to be marching on Erbil any time soon, and it's not due to any logistical issue. So there is a political component behind what is happening. quote:They are actively ethnically cleansing and resettling people in Afrin, and there is no reason they won't do it elsewhere in Syria. Its a lovely situation indeed, and you ascribed the majority of the blame in the equation to the Turkish government, true. That doesn't address the people who have to live through it, and the Turkification of the Kurds has been an ongoing process. What they are doing is wrong, right? You would say it is in Homs, and certainly wouldn't try to carry water for the Assad regime in a way to provide "context". I'm not carrying water for Turkey. To use your Homs analogy, the protesters in Homs were brutalized, displaced, and extremists replaced their voices. It's about the exact opposite of what they hoped to achieve. If you talk to them today, while they all still hold Assad as the root evil, most will express regret for serious missteps that were made along the way, that played a role in compounding the issue. It's the same situation with the PKK, although at least in the case of Homs, it was grassroots and leaderless, so they have an excuse for miscalculating their situation. That, and their situation was far more desperate, and that led to accepting help wherever the could get it. But in the case of Rojava, the PKK was far more centralized from the get go, and they made a lot of mistakes here. The bad blood going back decades drove policy on their end. They had an axe to grind. There was so much inflammatory rhetoric and so many rumors being passed around that people wanted to believe, that the current scenario with the Syrian Kurds getting the boot and the majority of the Turkish population cheerleading it was the natural conclusion. It's what the PKK thought they wanted. Like I said, the onus is on Turkey, and I hope the US stays in Rojava to deter Turkey or Assad from getting any ideas, despite how frustrated I've been with the PKK for years, because it is an injustice that the Kurds in the region are facing. But at the same time, the PKK shares a role in this mess, and if current trends continue, they aren't going to be a positive influence moving forward towards a solution that secures the rights and dignity of Syrian Kurds, any more than Hamas or Ahrar al-Sham are in their respective conflicts. Just saying Erdogan is a genocidal fascist, end of story, isn't really productive, or particularly accurate. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 11:52
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enraged_camel posted:Great info and definitely not whataboutism or apologia. Thank god we have squalid to defend the anecdotes of the people in Turkey and which enraged_camel shares entirely.
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Jan 5, 2019 11:57
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enraged_camel posted:What country in the world is OK with parts of it splitting off to form new countries? Furthermore, why is “ethnic group” the criteria that is used? How does the USA view its own segregationists? Could, say, California secede from the union if its people voted for it? (That’s a rhetorical question obviously. Last time there was a serious secessionist movement in the USA, it, too, was brutally oppressed, and the secessionists were branded “traitors”. And we all are familiar with the present-day discourse surrounding the American Civil War.) One situation I'm envisioning is Turkey annexing the Kurdish parts of Syria, and then the Kurds getting their own semi-autonomous state within Turkey, similar to how Chechnya is to Russia. That way the Kurdish terrorist attacks would stop because the Kurds aren't being oppressed anymore, but they are still united with Turkey.
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Jan 5, 2019 12:05
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Coldwar timewarp posted:Thank god we have squalid to defend the anecdotes of the people in Turkey and which enraged_camel shares entirely. /shrug I’m being as honest and forthcoming as I can. If you want to be flippant and dismissive in your response, that’s your prerogative, but you should also ask yourself why you are posting in D&D if you don’t want to actually debate in good faith.
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Jan 5, 2019 12:09
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enraged_camel posted:But here is the thing: Turkey is obviously a mix of many different ethnic groups. If every one of those were granted sovereignty, Turkey would cease to exist. Why do you blame Turks for being against that outcome? Because Turk leaders keep disenfranchising and killing people to avoid that happening. If your choices are between Balkanization and mass murder maybe it's time for Balkanization. It's not like there haven't been alternatives. Give regions more autonomy, become a federation, promise guarantees of future autonomy, acknowledge past atrocities, do any of the non-violent options nations have for resolving these kinds of disputes and actually commit to them. Also, accept that maybe a unitary nation-state that keeps collapsing to coups and authoritarians isn't what is best for the region. Maybe it's okay to have a smaller Turkey. I get that for you Turks this is a very personal conflict with blood having been spilled and your collective identity being on the line, but guess what, that goes for the other side of your argument too. With a century long conflict there are no easy outs where everyone gets to walk away happy, but if you want peace you commit to it anyway because that's the only way the blood is going to stop flowing. enraged_camel posted:That’s a rhetorical question obviously. Last time there was a serious secessionist movement in the USA, it, too, was brutally oppressed, and the secessionists were branded “traitors”. And we all are familiar with the present-day discourse surrounding the American Civil War. Just to check here so I'm not misunderstanding, is this your attempt to imply that the US civil war was not about slavery?
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Jan 5, 2019 12:12
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enraged_camel posted:Okay, so over the past few weeks I had many conversations with friends, relatives and acquaintances about the whole Syria situation. Some "stream of consciousness" formed by my unofficial and non-scientific polling of public opinion: Turks seems awful people to be honest
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Jan 5, 2019 12:20
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MiddleOne posted:. Of course it was. A bunch of states wanted to retain slavery, and wanted to secede because of it. The reason doesn’t really matter. What matters is: a group of people had disagreements with the larger group about Issue X and wanted to form their own country. Why didn’t they deserve the right to self-determination? Is ethnicity the only valid reason for self-determination? (The reason the Union went after the Confederacy is because the US federal government realized that allowing the Southern states to secede would set a really bad precedent, and would basically doom the union. Same with Turkey.)
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Jan 5, 2019 12:24
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enraged_camel posted:/shrug I understand why people think those ways, its not crazy, it has sense. It is also wrong, and saying "what about your negroes" is just as useful and as flippant as anything I said. It's the same argument Zionists use to support settlement building. The same that the Chinese are using when talking about taking over Taiwan. Frankly, I don't think the past genocidal actions of another country excuse the actions of your, mine, or any other country. We also live in a world where things are thought of as acceptable, and some are not, this is a changing sensibility observed differently in different places. I would say that what has been done against the Kurds historically in Turkey, is comparable to genocide, culturally if not by killing. As to what country would allow a minority group of such a size autonomy, or a referendum to leave, I live in one. Quebec and Francophones are guaranteed equal government services in French and are well represented in Parliament(perhaps over-represented, though there are other non Quebec examples). This was done so as to create a stable country which enfranchised its citizens and didn't try to turn them into Anglo-Canadians. While by no means perfect, it shows that there is another path and while not easy, the path can work. Britain allowed the Scottish to have a referendum. You are advocating for the other path, one that I would call objectively worse, and morally wrong.
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Jan 5, 2019 12:31
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enraged_camel posted:The reason doesn’t really matter. What matters is: a group of people had disagreements with the larger group about Issue X and wanted to form their own country. Why didn’t they deserve the right to self-determination? Is ethnicity the only valid reason for self-determination? goddamn They should've sent a poey. Perhaps one day we will achieve tgat dream, of a world without the self-dedtermination of white poeple to enslave people of undeterminable ethnicity. but in waiting for that i guess were juwst gonna have to keep shooting them and bagging their carpets
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Jan 5, 2019 12:33
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enraged_camel posted:The reason doesn’t really matter. What matters is: a group of people had disagreements with the larger group about Issue X and wanted to form their own country. Why didn’t they deserve the right to self-determination? Is ethnicity the only valid reason for self-determination? But the reason does matter. It's more than just ethnicity to the kurds. It's culture, history, tradition and language (and Turkish secularism but I think that moment has passed). You're correct in that there is no one right reason to want sovereignty, but by the end of the day the power of a claim to sovereignty comes from a significant enough chunk of people not identifying nor wanting to be part of the nation-state they're citizens of. You have two options to resolve that conflict peacefully. Make them identify as Turks (good luck) or make them feel they still want to be part of your nation. Option two is how most modern nation-states have resolved such disputes. Being a big unitary state is really difficult, it's not coincidence that most big nations are federations of some sort. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 12:36
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Volkerball posted:It's kind of an ethnic and PKK issue all wrapped into one. While Turkey is behind a collective punishment campaign in Rojava that targets Syrian Kurds as a whole, they aren't going to be marching on Erbil any time soon, and it's not due to any logistical issue. So there is a political component behind what is happening. Sure, so instead of promising to destroy them as terrorists when they decided to become independent, Erdogan just said he'd let Iraqi Kurds starve because he'd enforce a blockade against them. What a beautiful friendship.
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Jan 5, 2019 12:40
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Coldwar timewarp posted:Frankly, I don't think the past genocidal actions of another country excuse the actions of your, mine, or any other country. Sorry, past genocidal actions? Dude, kids are dying in literal concentration camps in the US southern border. The United States of America is committing crimes against humanity even as it judges other nations for their own transgressions. It also supports regimes who commit similar crimes. When was that Yemeni school bus blown up by the Saudis? Last month? That is what people are objecting to. As the saying goes, he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. (I know you said you are Canadian, but I think my overall point stands.) Sure, it is not “logical” but so what? In times of heavy conflict you can’t appeal to people’s logic, especially if there is massive hypocrisy involved. That’s just a fact. Not only does it not work, it makes things worse as the people involved just get stubborn and dig in further. Therefore: stop moralizing and let countries deal with their own problems. Stop meddling. God knows the US has played no small part in horribly loving up the Middle East, either directly via military action or indirectly by playing various groups against each other. When will it be enough?
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Jan 5, 2019 12:47
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enraged_camel posted:Sorry, past genocidal actions? Dude, kids are dying in literal concentration camps in the US southern border. The United States of America is committing crimes against humanity even as it judges other nations for their own transgressions. It also supports regimes who commit similar crimes. When was that Yemeni school bus blown up by the Saudis? Last month? We are talking about Turkey with its whole arm inside Syria. More than meddling, in Iraq and Syria. Acting as a force dismembering another country. The US should leave, and so should Turkey. They should make peace and offer concessions to end violence and the support for the PKK would decrease as a result. You didn’t seem to address my examples of countries who allowed referendums of substantial populations and territories to minority groups. Those groups also have quite a bit of autonomy, language rights and equal rights. Their majority let the minority have a chance to choose their own way, while Turkey won’t let Kurds learn in Kurdish in public or private schools. Turkey has chosen the boot on their face, and has since Ataturk.
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Jan 5, 2019 13:08
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enraged_camel posted:But enough about the USA. The history is complex but Turkey as a modern state has been and continues to be enormously lovely towards kurds. Like, if you do not want to foment a violent secessionist movement from your significant minority then why do you for the last 70 years suppress that minority, bans their language and do forced disappearances and bombing of their civilians? The Turkish state has by far the biggest resources available to mend this conflict in a peaceful way that does not include secession, but it keeps on fomenting the conflict because it has no interest in a peaceful solution that is not 100% on their terms, and the conflict is a convenient tool for the leadership to keep power. That last paragraph of you is also quite strange when it seems to wholly disregard the perspective of kurds, the party involved that has suffered the most civilian casualties by most, if not all, estimates. Do you not think that a Kurdish village boy in the 80s and 90s would also fear which of his relatives that would get arbitrarily detained and disappeared/or just raped at a checkpoint? Or if next time when he went home from school, an artillery barrage would come without warning? Zudgemud fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 13:11
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The PKK is the only remaining left-wing faction in the ME with much power and it's important to see it succeed if you're any kind of leftist at all.
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Jan 5, 2019 13:13
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Panzeh posted:The PKK is the only remaining left-wing faction in the ME with much power and it's important to see it succeed if you're any kind of leftist at all.
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Jan 5, 2019 13:51
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Speaking of liking Assad, seems like Syrian foreign relations are starting to normalize again in 2019 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2019/01/05/assads-long-road-to-international-rehabilitation/?utm_term=.ce305893ee22
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Jan 5, 2019 14:39
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Zudgemud posted:The history is complex but Turkey as a modern state has been and continues to be enormously lovely towards kurds. Like, if you do not want to foment a violent secessionist movement from your significant minority then why do you for the last 70 years suppress that minority, bans their language and do forced disappearances and bombing of their civilians? The Turkish state has by far the biggest resources available to mend this conflict in a peaceful way that does not include secession, but it keeps on fomenting the conflict because it has no interest in a peaceful solution that is not 100% on their terms, and the conflict is a convenient tool for the leadership to keep power. well, yeah, but they're kurds, and as far as our buddy's concerned they deserve it
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Jan 5, 2019 17:26
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Sinteres posted:Sure, so instead of promising to destroy them as terrorists when they decided to become independent, Erdogan just said he'd let Iraqi Kurds starve because he'd enforce a blockade against them. What a beautiful friendship. That referendum was one of the biggest geopolitical gently caress ups in recent history, and it strained relations between the KRG and all of its neighbors, as well as with the KDP's domestic opposition. But even so, Turkey never closed its border, unlike Iran, and trading between the two is increasing again, to the point that they're actually opening a third border crossing. http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/b24d22ac-80fb-4e9e-acb9-2bf1856cecd4
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Jan 5, 2019 18:48
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Volkerball posted:That referendum was one of the biggest geopolitical gently caress ups in recent history, and it strained relations between the KRG and all of its neighbors, as well as with the KDP's domestic opposition. But even so, Turkey never closed its border, unlike Iran, and trading between the two is increasing again, to the point that they're actually opening a third border crossing. http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/b24d22ac-80fb-4e9e-acb9-2bf1856cecd4 The referendum was a huge mistake, but I wouldn't characterize their relationship as being a positive example of Turkey treating Kurds well given that it's premised entirely upon Kurds knowing their place and remanining subjugated forever, both inside Turkey and out, and whether or not they have any ties to terrorists.
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Jan 5, 2019 18:55
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Sinteres posted:The referendum was a huge mistake, but I wouldn't characterize their relationship as being a positive example of Turkey treating Kurds well given that it's premised entirely upon Kurds knowing their place and remanining subjugated forever, both inside Turkey and out, and whether or not they have any ties to terrorists. Having their own regional sovereignty within a larger state is the closest thing that a Kurdish people has ever had to independence disregarding things like the short lived Mahabad republic, and is a lot more than can be said about a lot of other minorities with sub-state regional identities in similar circumstances. If you're not married to the idea of ethnic turbo-nationalism (which isn't inherently a bad thing when it comes to Iraq, given the state of the central government), it's not a bad state of affairs, and it's certainly preferable to the state of affairs the the PKK has managed to maneuver itself into. The KRG of course has its own problems, but I don't think any of them are really related to any sort of subservience to Turkey. It's just part of Kurdistan moving from its history of resistance, which has been dominated by Barzani's, Talabani's, and clan politics, into the 21st century. There's still a lot of work to be done in that regard, but there's real potential there. And the Iraqi central government rooting out corruption and beginning to function, and themselves, are bigger hurdles to realizing it than Turkey. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 19:11
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Volkerball posted:That referendum was one of the biggest geopolitical gently caress ups in recent history, and it strained relations between the KRG and all of its neighbors, as well as with the KDP's domestic opposition. But even so, Turkey never closed its border, unlike Iran, and trading between the two is increasing again, to the point that they're actually opening a third border crossing. http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/b24d22ac-80fb-4e9e-acb9-2bf1856cecd4 They threatened to close the border, threatened military and economic measures, and stopped all flights from Turkish airline companies. They were as heavy handed as Iran for all that matters.
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Jan 5, 2019 19:45
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Volkerball posted:Having their own regional sovereignty within a larger state is the closest thing that a Kurdish people has ever had to independence disregarding things like the short lived Mahabad republic, and is a lot more than can be said about a lot of other minorities with sub-state regional identities in similar circumstances. If you're not married to the idea of ethnic turbo-nationalism (which isn't inherently a bad thing when it comes to Iraq, given the state of the central government), it's not a bad state of affairs, and it's certainly preferable to the state of affairs the the PKK has managed to maneuver itself into. The KRG of course has its own problems, but I don't think any of them are really related to any sort of subservience to Turkey. It's just part of Kurdistan moving from its history of resistance, which has been dominated by Barzani's, Talabani's, and clan politics, into the 21st century. There's still a lot of work to be done in that regard, but there's real potential there. And the Iraqi central government rooting out corruption and beginning to function, and themselves, are bigger hurdles to realizing it than Turkey. PKK, if you want to lump them in with YPG, as the Turks do, have maneuvered into controlling a third of Syria, and having the backing of two major powers, one of which being the only one that matters . Even with Trumps threatened pullout, the defence blob has managed to slow roll it to not before the end of 2019, already. That could extend longer.
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Jan 5, 2019 19:50
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enraged_camel posted:But here is the thing: Turkey is obviously a mix of many different ethnic groups. If every one of those were granted sovereignty, Turkey would cease to exist. Why do you blame Turks for being against that outcome? Sweden & Norway 1905. And the right response to entire parts of your populace wanting to ceceede - is to let them. You can be allies instead of enemies. It solves the gripes and feuds of the old world. Choose your enemies. And choose your friends.
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Jan 5, 2019 20:29
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enraged_camel posted:Sorry, past genocidal actions? Dude, kids are dying in literal concentration camps in the US southern border. The United States of America is committing crimes against humanity even as it judges other nations for their own transgressions. It also supports regimes who commit similar crimes. When was that Yemeni school bus blown up by the Saudis? Last month? Get ready to have your mind loving blown: the US is also bad and should not do that. Whoa. Crazy. Almost like it's possible to be against genocide and crimes against humanity everywhere on principle rather than just in Turkey.
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Jan 5, 2019 20:37
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Sweden & Norway 1905. Also Czechia and Slovakia in 1993.
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Jan 5, 2019 21:27
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