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I feel like I'm repeating myself but por que no los dos. Also, who the gently caress buys a bamboo toothbrush that is then imported via plane? you'd have to be literally retarded to do that
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Jan 5, 2019 17:04
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Lord Stimperor posted:Yes let us talk down and demonize other people about potentially contributing to 0.00645 of CO2 emissions and get bogged down into discussions about that rather than tackling the issue of generating almost half our energy by burning coal in TYOL 2019 Wengy posted:I feel like I'm repeating myself but por que no los dos. Also, who the gently caress buys a bamboo toothbrush that is then imported via plane? you'd have to be literally retarded to do that
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Jan 5, 2019 17:05
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Maybe the real hypocrisy is a card-carrying SPD member posting about hypocrisy. 
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Jan 5, 2019 17:07
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Hi, while we are talking about our train issues I would really like to know how the Bahn Fernverkehr manages to be more expensive than a junk diesel car from the 80s. Seriously, unless you manage to grab one of the few cheap tier tickets by booking ahead 2-3 month, you pay more for train travel. And that's for traveling alone, you pay a fraction of that when you are not travelling alone. I mean, I understand that the Bahn has to cross finance a lot of random infrastructure in Unterblöhmbenburg(Meck-Pomm) but holy poo poo
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Jan 5, 2019 17:08
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Wengy posted:I feel like I'm repeating myself but por que no los dos. Also, who the gently caress buys a bamboo toothbrush that is then imported via plane? you'd have to be literally retarded to do that I sympathize with your por que no los dos, I really do. But my impression is that if people feel that something isn't going right, they'll do one thing about it. That thing might fix or not fix the issue. What this means on a larger scale is that people who are concerned about environmental issue will walk into the store, pick a few items with a green or blue sticker on them, and then conclude 'I guess that's about all we can do'. Meanwhile any big corporation wouldn't hesitate one second to force feed their toxic waste to a bunch of endangered whales if it saved them one cent. Maybe I'm to cynical about all of this. But my impression remains that efforts to change the habits of consumers (like making plastic bags cost a few cents) give societal and political discourse a nice excuse to be distracted and procrastinate the larger issues. BTW I looked up some of the tooth brushes in question, and they're produced in Shenzhen, China. So I guess their ecological foot stamp doesn't measure op to their advertising claims  . That being said I am in favor of replacing single-use plastics where it makes sense, so I'm happy that people at least think about these things.
Lord Stimperor fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 17:10
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Hi, while we are talking about our train issues I would really like to know how the Bahn Fernverkehr manages to be more expensive than a junk diesel car from the 80s. Seriously, unless you manage to grab one of the few cheap tier tickets by booking ahead 2-3 month, you pay more for train travel. And that's for traveling alone, you pay a fraction of that when you are not travelling alone. You need to buy a BahnCard. See if you don't have a car driving is more expensive, and if you don't have a BahnCard riding the train is more expensive. Also your live in partner gets a cheaper BahnCard. Also if you're under 27 GET A BAHNCARD they are very cheap for young ones.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:17
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Simply Simon posted:Again, I didn't post this because it severely owned the Green hypocrites, but because an FDP guy made it, and I can't believe I have to explain that the joke is that he is by far the bigger hypocrite Yeah you're right, I was thinking that anyone within my bubble of friends would be mocked mercilessly for the toothbrush thing, but then it occurred to me that a lot of my well-meaning green(ish) friends are absolute shitheads when it comes to plane travel, so... And I do actually find it hard to talk about this, like I don't want to spoil anyone's Vorfreude if they've booked a nice Urlaub auf den Seychellen, but I can't help but think they're assholes.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:18
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Also from a dentalhygienischer point of view you SHOULD probably get a new toothbrush every once in a while so I don't see how the wooden one is all that nachhaltig anyway
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Jan 5, 2019 17:19
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pidan posted:You need to buy a BahnCard. Sadly, I've had a 25 Bahncard for years and it's still more expensive. The 50 one only makes the Flexipreis cheaper IRC, so it doesn't actually do anything. I mean, I get that the answer is to plan travel at least 3 weeks ahead but holy poo poo that's incredibly annoying and often just not feasible
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Jan 5, 2019 17:22
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nope they changed that a couple years (?) back. 50 includes 25 now. funnily i haven't used the flexpreis anymore since then so the joke's on me.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:24
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Wengy posted:Yeah you're right, I was thinking that anyone within my bubble of friends would be mocked mercilessly for the toothbrush thing, but then it occurred to me that a lot of my well-meaning green(ish) friends are absolute shitheads when it comes to plane travel, so... And I do actually find it hard to talk about this, like I don't want to spoil anyone's Vorfreude if they've booked a nice Urlaub auf den Seychellen, but I can't help but think they're assholes. Do you also not think that there are numerous valid reasons to take a plane? That people might be forced to take a plane for their jobs, and they have no say in this, and even if the prices go up up up for private people as less and less of them fly once you manage to convince ALL of them they are terrible assholes, the business fliers won't still keep the planes in the air in exactly the same numbers as before?
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Jan 5, 2019 17:27
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Look he said he doesn't ever need to take long trips, so nobody else should either.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:32
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I don't know? I've had to fly for work before and I've managed to put my foot down so I'll be able to do these trips by train in the future. I know that's not a possibility for everyone, but hey. Every little bit of décroissance helps, I think  And if possible, I call out people like my sister who visits Hawaii like every year. Disgusting.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:33
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So, do you or do you not also take the time to call out people who admit to using a car instead of bicycle/öffis?
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Jan 5, 2019 17:36
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Wengy posted:I don't know? I've had to fly for work before and I've managed to put my foot down so I'll be able to do these trips by train in the future. Every little bit of décroissance helps, I think And business trips to other continents exist, by the way. Academic conferences exist. You can't tell an American who's going to the east coast office from San Francisco to take a greyhound or whatever instead. The tiny amount of Swiss people who might be able to choose is completely meaningless. To solve the climate issue, you need large-scale structural change, new technologies, and, yes, reevaluation of things in society we took for granted. But JUST the latter won't do you any good, and I think it's far more sensible to start with the first two, because the societal restructuring/change/chaos (however bleak your lookout is) will come afterwards and have to adapt in the direction things go.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:38
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I'm not one of those car-owning fatcats, but when you say "Car is still cheaper", do you only consider gas or do you actually take into account the costs of the car itself including maintenance and taxes?
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Jan 5, 2019 17:49
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Jesus christ, given the nuclear takes in this thread, you'd think the Atomausstieg never happened.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:54
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Simply Simon posted:You think very wrong, imho. You won't save the world by standing at the airport and screaming STOP TAKING PLANES, YOU ASSHOLES. Since I'm not a politician or a climate scientist, I'm neither in a position to effect "large-scale structural change" nor to invent "new technologies". So I choose the only option available to me, which is to... make sustainable choices, if I can. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. Also, I would never fly to an academic conference, sorry, this poo poo is optional. And of course I call out car-owning fat cats. I live in a city with good ÖV, there's literally no point in owning a car here.
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Jan 5, 2019 17:57
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Wengy posted:I feel like I'm repeating myself but por que no los dos. Also, who the gently caress buys a bamboo toothbrush that is then imported via plane? you'd have to be literally retarded to do that Hey man, don't rule anything out. When I worked at a hotel in town some time ago we hosted a meeting for the guys who provide the licenses for Den Grüne Punkt that you may know quite well. For this meeting they paid us with a 350% surcharge to get super environmental friendly pens made of wood and working super CO2 neutral, however that works. Plus some chocolate that had a tree symbol on it. What the guests that used those pens didn't know is that we ordered them from China in massive quantities for less than a cent per pen, have each and everyone of them packed in plastic and they got shipped here via plane in big plastic boxes which we all threw away afterwards. The organizer who booked those however was well aware of that situation, but he only cared about being able to brag about those super eco friendly pens during the meeting. Which he did for roughly 10 minutes.
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Jan 5, 2019 18:02
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Wengy posted:Also, I would never fly to an academic conference, sorry, this poo poo is optional. And I'm not calling out your choices, it's in fact great if you are trying to have an impact any way you can. However, I am calling you out on your calling out other people, because I don't think that will do anything and just makes your AND their lives miserable for no reason. You are a smart guy and want to do the right thing, that is admirable. But thinking to yourself everytime you see someone be happy about a vacation abroad "man, what a loving rear end in a top hat" is not a solution to climate change. I do believe that society can prepare for the measures that will be necessary in the future, measures that will be forced upon everyone no matter their opinion, but that does not start with being a dick to people about their choices at the moment, which they still have, and which don't affect much if anything. Basically, it's great that society is coming around on the idea of veganism, that eating meat is not an absolutely 100% necessary thing and we would lose ARE CULTURE if we cut down on it, and I think that even people who still eat meat are slowly growing aware that eating less meat might be a good thing. But I don't think that this will abolish the meat industry; I do think that this will help a LOT once the meat industry is fundamentally reformed, either by political decisions, revolution, or global catastrophes, again depending on how cynical you are. If more people get around to the idea NOW that losing meat is not a life-ender, then the scale tips to the less violent end of how the change will go. The same is true for flying. People will probably maybe have to adapt to the idea that flying abroad three times a year is no longer possible in, say, 30 years even if you're the elusive upper middle class. But you telling (or thinking about really wanting to tell) everybody HEY STOP FLYING NOW will not help this idea along; on the contrary, in fact. It doesn't help that you seem to be completely unaware that for many people in many professions, flying is NOT a luxury or a choice.
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Jan 5, 2019 18:09
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I may have given off the wrong vibe here, my problem is that I usually don't call people out, despite wanting to - maybe it would help if some of my fernreisensüchtige friends were confronted with their assholeish behavior! But yeah, no worries there, it's actually the other way around: I've been asked why I never take 'real' vacations, which just goes to show that intercontinental CO2-jizz-orgies have become completely normalized. That's quite terrible. But whatever, I'm a hypocrite too, will probably order Lebergeschnetzeltes at the restaurant later tonight  It just galls me when people who know better - only buy locally grown food, maybe even vegetarian / vegan, don't own a car - fly to loving Hawaii for their summer holiday.And yeah, some people have to be mobile due to their jobs. But let's not forget that Freizeitmobilität is a huge driver of CO2-emissions: https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/mobilitaet-und-verkehr-37-kilometer-pro-tag-auf-achse-ld.1293655
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Jan 5, 2019 18:16
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Wengy posted:- only buy locally grown food - I know of a perfect place for living like that. Best of all, that place can even be reached by train (at least until the end of March). 
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Jan 5, 2019 18:19
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Randler posted:I'm not one of those car-owning fatcats, but when you say "Car is still cheaper", do you only consider gas or do you actually take into account the costs of the car itself including maintenance and taxes? I don't think those make much of a difference compared to the fuel costs. Like, take the Berlin-Munich route(600km, 4.5l Verbrauch, Dieselpreis 1.25), that's ~34€ in fuel costs. Insurance and taxes should be around ~400€ per year IRC for a twenty something and a compact car. That's a rounding error compared to the fuel costs. Car depreciation is also not gonna matter much (unless you buy a new car and lmao if you do), and neither is maintenance (around ~200€ a year IRC) cause the motherfucking flexipreis for this route is 153 motherfucking € without Bahncard. Seriously, wtf Bahn?
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Jan 5, 2019 18:20
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I don't think those make much of a difference compared to the fuel costs. Like, take the Berlin-Munich route(600km, 4.5l Verbrauch, Dieselpreis 1.25), that's ~34€ in fuel costs. This is what I mean with political pressure (or revolution or cataclysm), people won't just decide "guess I should stop taking the car, the arguments are VERY convincing that I'm destroying the planet with every drive" when it's not actually happening in front of their eyes. But if the train were in fact cheaper, then they might reconsider, and I would have because I actually hate driving but not enough, you know? And this is something that is well within the ability of politicians right now to do, make the Bahn cheaper. And you can vote for that, doing way way more than not taking the car this one time. I'm not saying "just always drive it doesn't matter lol", you should weigh your options and choose to not take the car when they're about equal. Because, after all, better get used to it unless they invent the Greenest Car fueled by electricity generated from the dreams of unicorns soon (I'm working on the hydrogen thing as well I swear).
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Jan 5, 2019 18:36
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I don't think those make much of a difference compared to the fuel costs. Like, take the Berlin-Munich route(600km, 4.5l Verbrauch, Dieselpreis 1.25), that's ~34€ in fuel costs. You gotta do the calculation with a BahnCard 100 in mind, if you do 100 trips Berlin-Munich a year (like Wochenendpendeln) you quickly reach 30-40 euros per trip, basically the same as fuel cost for car travel in your calculation. No taxes, no need to buy a car, no maintenance etc. etc. basically you come ahead with a BC 100. Flexipreis sans BC 25/50 is insane though for what you get, totally.
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Jan 5, 2019 18:43
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Wengy posted:I don't know? I've had to fly for work before and I've managed to put my foot down so I'll be able to do these trips by train in the future. I know that's not a possibility for everyone, but hey. Every little bit of décroissance helps, I think I don't get short distance flights of 500kms. And many (but by no means all) business trips are a waste of time. But flying to see some of the beautiful places this world has to offer seems like the best reason to do it. I haven't had the opportunity for long and far-away vacations the last years, but I would not want to miss those experiences I made every time I went "somewhere else". The Greens are a bunch of hypocrites, but I wish them a nice trip and hope they realise that everybody has a good reason to want to have a look at the world before kicking the bucket.
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Jan 5, 2019 18:51
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Apropos of nothing, check out the reverse side of my KVB-Monatskarte: 
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Jan 5, 2019 19:27
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I'm sorry, but if you're not vegan, please don't lecture others about their CO2 footprint, thank you.
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Jan 5, 2019 19:31
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75 new posts what could have... ohhh. Sirs this is the alemannenfaden
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Jan 5, 2019 19:32
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Wengy posted:I may have given off the wrong vibe here, my problem is that I usually don't call people out, despite wanting to - maybe it would help if some of my fernreisensüchtige friends were confronted with their assholeish behavior! But yeah, no worries there, it's actually the other way around: I've been asked why I never take 'real' vacations, which just goes to show that intercontinental CO2-jizz-orgies have become completely normalized. That's quite terrible. But whatever, I'm a hypocrite too, will probably order Lebergeschnetzeltes at the restaurant later tonight FFS man, unironically you should get other friends outside the bourgie bubble. Like honestly, who has friends that ask them why they don't take real vacations lol
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Jan 5, 2019 19:34
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Again, please remember: every 'environmentalist' who is not vegan is a hypocrite of the highest order.
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Jan 5, 2019 19:35
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hi oliwan
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Jan 5, 2019 20:01
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also fully agreeing, privatization of the bahn was an unmitigated catastrophe in many respects including "actively aiding the destruction of human civilization"
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Jan 5, 2019 20:02
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Die Anteilseigner der Deutschen Bahn gehören enteignet und ihr Vermögen sollte an den Staat fallen.
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Jan 5, 2019 20:08
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Randler posted:Die Anteilseigner der Deutschen Bahn gehören enteignet und ihr Vermögen sollte an den Staat fallen. 
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Jan 5, 2019 20:16
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Ich fahr so gut wie nie Bahn, warum auch, die meisten Orte an die ich muss haben keinen Bahnhof. Außerdem wurde ich heute mal wieder daran erinnert wie schwer es ist Züge fahren zu lassen in einem “Hochtechnologieland” wie Deutschland wenn es mal schneit. Jetzt mal ohne Scheiß, wie ist das in anderen Ländern in denen es auch regelmäßig schneit im Winter? Ich kann mir einfach nicht vorstellen dass das überall so ein Chaos ist wenn es schneit.
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Jan 5, 2019 20:54
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oliwan posted:Again, please remember: every 'environmentalist' who is not vegan is a hypocrite of the highest order. Die Zerstörung unseres Planeten durch Dummheit und Habgier der Menschen will Gaia, die Mutter der Erde, nicht länger dulden.
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Jan 5, 2019 21:09
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So is the Bahncard good or bad for the environment? Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, you don't order anything non-vegan from the dining car.
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Jan 5, 2019 22:32
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Vanadium posted:So is the Bahncard good or bad for the environment? Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, you don't order anything non-vegan from the dining car. It is plastic and therefore bad.
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Jan 5, 2019 22:34
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This one is for Wengy and all the other non-vegans telling other people to reduce their flights:The article below posted:“A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use,” said Joseph Poore, at the University of Oxford, UK, who led the research. “It is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car,” he said, as these only cut greenhouse gas emissions. From this article: Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth Biggest analysis to date reveals huge footprint of livestock - it provides just 18% of calories but takes up 83% of farmland Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth
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Jan 5, 2019 23:25
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