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Sinteres posted:The whataboutism is getting pretty heavy here. Now the list of countries that have to acknowledge their wrongdoing before Turkey can is Germany, Japan, the US, UK and Greece. Any others? To be fair he does have a point there since the Greek invasion of Anatolia was full of atrocities against non-Greeks around Izmir and inland. Then the whole thing flipped around when the nationalist armies came through and kicked them out. Greece charging into places on nationalist grounds like a dumbass and getting local Greeks ethnically cleansed when a reaction happens has a long history, it's kind of what happened in Cyprus in 74' too.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:21
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steinrokkan posted:Yeah, I liked that part of your posting too, that's why I made fun of it, you scumbag. Ethnic cleansing and genocide is a bad thing, no matter who does it. "Wow nice justification of the Holocaust dude"
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Jan 8, 2019 20:23
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Grape posted:To be fair he does have a point there since the Greek invasion of Anatolia was full of atrocities against non-Greeks around Izmir and inland. I didn't say it was untrue, just that 'maybe we'll talk about our crimes just as soon as everyone else comes clean about theirs' is a pretty massive deflection. I mean a mutual admission of historical guilt in which Erdogan and Tsipras shook hands would be great, but barring that, Greece not doing something isn't a sufficient reason to deny Turkey's crimes. Erdogan just quoted some folk song about throwing the Greeks into the sea a few days ago btw.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:24
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Sinteres posted:I didn't say it was untrue, just that 'maybe we'll talk about our crimes just as soon as everyone else comes clean about theirs' is a pretty massive deflection. I mean a mutual admission of historical guilt in which Erdogan and Tsipras shook hands would be great, but barring that, Greece not doing something isn't a sufficient reason to deny Turkey's crimes. Oh no doubt, until the day Golden Dawn comes to power it's clear modern Greece is capable at least somewhat of being an adult. That's kind of the problem in Cyprus during the dying (dead?) current talks. In 1974 every side except maybe the TC's were violent brats. In 2019, Greece is an adult, Greek Cyprus is an adult, Turkish Cyprus is an adult.... Guess who is still a violent brat.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:29
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"I'm not the Ottoman Empire, I'm not the Ottoman Empire!" I yell as I slowly use the exact same flag as the Ottoman Empire as my own.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:29
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Sinteres posted:I didn't say it was untrue, just that 'maybe we'll talk about our crimes just as soon as everyone else comes clean about theirs' is a pretty massive deflection. I mean a mutual admission of historical guilt in which Erdogan and Tsipras shook hands would be great, but barring that, Greece not doing something isn't a sufficient reason to deny Turkey's crimes. There is only a mainstream movement for the recognition of the Armenian genocide. Turkey should recognize it, but this will never happen unless other parties recognize what they did too. It comes off as ridiculously targeted for the average Turk.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:30
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Admittedly, the formal US governmental acknowledgment of unjustified violence, relocation, maltreatment, and neglect toward American Indians stopped short of using the accurate term of genocide. But it was at least a formal apology with far less “but also both sides and stop being mad about it” than Erdogan’s 2014 statement.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:40
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HorrificExistence posted:There is only a mainstream movement for the recognition of the Armenian genocide. Way to completely sideline all other similar movements as “fringe.” Gross.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:42
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mlmp08 posted:Way to completely sideline all other similar movements as “fringe.” Gross. IDK, a lot more countries recognize what Turkey did then what the U.S. did. It doesn't change what happened but there is more political clout behind the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, then say, the Trial of Tears. Fundamentally we need to ask what the role of recognition is. I'm against the idea of national victimhood in general. The modern Turkish government plays off of their perceived victimhood just as fascist parties in Greece, Ukraine and the rest of Europe do. The perception of victimhood is a huge motivator for conflict and atrocity. Right now, all formal recognition does is essentially give the modern nation-state of Armenia it's special victim status in relation to its conflict with Azerbaijan. Basically, recognition is just a proxy for which side of that conflict you stand on. You have to destroy the concept of nations as living immutable entities if you want people to actually care about those who were killed.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:57
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rear end struggle posted:IDK, a lot more countries recognize what Turkey did then what the U.S. did. It doesn't change what happened but there is more political clout behind the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, then say, the Trial of Tears. I think the difference is that nobody's denying that the trail of tears happened, so there's no need to make official declarations about it. It's just accepted fact.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:58
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Sinteres posted:I think the difference is that nobody's denying that the trail of tears happened, so there's no need to make official declarations about it. It's just accepted fact. Well, it is, but you’ll still see plenty of Americans get prickly about the term genocide or get into lovely “Indian tribes killed each other, too” misdirection. The formal US apology didn’t tie strings to it, but it notably did not possess the word genocide and wasn’t widely publicized. Plenty of Americans are satisfied with “oops diseases happened, who coulda known?”
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Jan 8, 2019 21:02
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Yeah, I get a bit prickly when what happened to the American Indians is described as a genocide. It was really multiple genocides over a long span of time.
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Jan 8, 2019 21:06
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Ardennes posted:Admittedly, reprisals against the Kurds started by the Republic of Turkey in the 1920s is more applicable. If by reprisals you mean the suppression of the Sheikh Said rebellion, I tend to disagree. After all, Sheikh Said rebellion is arguably more of a fundamentalist (Islamist) uprising rather than a Kurdish nationalist or a socialist one. Sheikh Said and former Ottoman Hamidiye Battalions loyal to him rose against the secular direction the young republic took in 1925 directly as a result of Ataturk abolishing the Islamic Caliphate. They essentially wanted the Caliphate back. Hamidiye Battalions might also ring familiar to those who studied the Armenian Genocide before. There were the armed groups which enforced the deportations. The PKK was established in 1978 by a bunch of Kurdish nationalists who were aligned with Marxist ideals. Their primary objective was secession of Southeast Turkey and declaration of a Socialist Republic of Kurdistan. The conditions that ripened the PKK came to exist with and after the military coup of 1980, which in turn aimed to suppress the clashes between far left and far right in Turkey. Of course the junta did that by cracking down on just about every political party in Turkey, and Kurds were also grossly mistreated. almighty fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 21:12
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Grape posted:Yes, Greece attempted to rape the island, triggering Turkey's actual raping of the island. I disagree with you in the sense that the current Turkish government loathes the Turkish Cypriots, and the policy of moving settlers to Cyprus was given up on quite a while ago. If I remember correctly, in order for a Turkish citizen to obtain Northern Cyprus citizenship, he has to spend two to three years under employment in Cyprus with a work permit. While the Turkish Army has a presence on the island, Turkey does not have a dedicated air base or a naval base in Cyprus, but a naval base is being contemplated on in response to the whole gas drilling rights shenanigans. Greek Cypriots certainly did not act as adults when they voted against the U.N. sponsored Annan Plan for unification while the Turkish Cypriots voted for it. It is such a shame all Cypriots ended up missing that opportunity. However, realpolitik wise, the actual reason Turkey has severe reservations about any unification scheme other than a confederation model is that unified Cyprus falling under mainland Greek influence would ultimately mean shipping in and outbound Turkey and Turkish Navy would have to obtain permission from either Greece or Cyprus governments just to be able to sail into Mediterranean, especially if either party exercises the optional right to extend their territorial waters to 12 miles as provided for by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, of which Turkey is not a party of. For the same reason, Turkey considers a Greek expansion of territorial waters to 12 miles a casus belli. I'm a realist, and I think both Greece and Turkey has to reach a mutually satisfactory solution to the whole territorial waters debacle in order for the Cyprus issue to get settled down. almighty fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 21:32
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almighty posted:raising Armenian Genocide in relation with the Turkey's stance towards the PKK is akin to explaining Germany's presence in Afghanistan after 2001 through Mein Kampf and Adolf Hitler. This is actually correct. You're like this cloes to just getting it, but it's like you keep turnking far right at the last moment every time. Enyway good luck and ins'Allah you will see the light one morning
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Jan 8, 2019 21:55
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almighty posted:While the Turkish Army has a presence on the island, Turkey does not have a dedicated air base or a naval base in Cyprus, but a naval base is being contemplated on in response to the whole gas drilling rights shenanigans. The shenanigans where an independent nation is trying to get gas in their waters, and Turkey thinks they have some right to stomp on that. quote:Greek Cypriots certainly did not act as adults when they voted against the U.N. sponsored Annan Plan for unification while the Turkish Cypriots voted for it. It is such a shame all Cypriots ended up missing that opportunity. The Annan plan involved keeping Turkish soldiers on the island. It was always a non-starter for the Greeks. Or, I dunno bro is this hard for you to comprehend? The army that in extremely living memory murdered a bunch of people and ethnically cleansed half the island of Greeks sticks around for peace keeping purposes? lol oh and that army's tendency to being attached to acts of nationalist cross border violence is clearly proven to be an active ongoing feature, including the ethnic targeting element in Afrin. So don't even tell me that was in any way irrational with some "yeah but we're not STILL a hyper-nationalist warmonger!". Like do you not comprehend what happened in 74'? It's not like the country was de facto split between north and south, and the Turkish invasion just solidified this. Gander this:  This is 1974, not a million years ago. Your troops must leave. Likewise there does need to be peacekeepers to cover the fears of the Turkish Cypriots, but they can't be yours (lol). Kurnugia posted:This is actually correct. You're like this cloes to just getting it, but it's like you keep turnking far right at the last moment every time. Enyway good luck and ins'Allah you will see the light one morning Actually he kind of isn't though, because Germany doesn't really do anything militarily aggressive anymore, and is not still a nationalist beast run by despots. Turkey? Well the jury is very much out on that one. Acting like Turkey isn't still prone to violence, ultra-nationalism, and isn't lead by a megalomaniacal psuedo-tyrant? Bad faith arguing at best. Grape fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 22:08
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HorrificExistence posted:Enranged, nationalism is a disease, embrace the unifying power of Faith instead. We are all creatures of the Almighty, and Armenians are brothers of the book. But the Yezidi, gently caress them, they are devil worshipers and should be put to death.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:18
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Grape posted:The shenanigans where an independent nation is trying to get gas in their waters, and Turkey thinks they have some right to stomp on that. Turkish Cypriots voted for Annan Plan in overwhelming numbers, and I believe the popular opinion is still for a Turkish Army presence because especially the older generation sees the Turkish Army as their savior from the ethnic violence which necessitated the intervention to begin with. Unless there are solid guarantees the rights of the Turkish Cypriots will not be undermined and they will not be slaughtered, Turkey will continue to position itself on the island and there will be Turkish Cypriot popular support for it. I'm afraid all that name calling is not going to help your argument despite what you might be thinking. You are lump summing every Turk and Turkish Cypriot out there as ultra-nationalists (demonstrably false) and prone to violence (lol) just because it suits your personal point of view. Such caricaturisation and reductio ad absurdum is not only childish and immature, but also inherently racist and bigoted. Notice how I essentially avoid bringing up Greek ultra-nationalist tendencies and how I avoid superficial simplifications such as "Greeks are just aggressive ultranationalists just want to get Cyprus and be done with this whole thing". And no, the primary impetus for the Greek Cypriot vote against the U.N. sponsored Annan Plan was heavy campaigning against it by the nationalist Greek Cypriot government at the time. That is still a shame, because the plan also foresaw an eventual and incremental drawdown of non Cypriot militaries from the island. quote:Negotiations to find a solution to the Cyprus problem have been taking place on and off since 1964. Between 1974 and 2002, the Turkish Cypriot side was seen by the international community as the side refusing a balanced solution. Since 2002, the situation has been reversed according to US and UK officials, and the Greek Cypriot side rejected a plan which would have called for the dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus without guarantees that the Turkish occupation forces would be removed. The latest Annan Plan to reunify the island which was endorsed by the United States, United Kingdom and Turkey was accepted by a referendum by Turkish Cypriots but overwhelmingly rejected in parallel referendum by Greek Cypriots, after the Greek Cypriot Leadership and Greek Orthodox Church urged the Greek population to vote no. As anyone can understand, the Greek Cypriots ended up voting no because both the Greek Church and the Greek Cypriot leadership campaigned for a no. The federated solution suggested by the Annan Plan ensues a fair power-sharing measure between both Turkish and Greek Cypriot communities and would have precluded any further Greek nationalist attempt to unify Cyprus with Greece as it has been the case several times until 1974. almighty fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 22:24
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The Annan Plan was pretty bad. Heavy restrictions on the right of return, Turkey being granted the right to keep occupying in perpetuity and to further intervene militarily unilaterally, Cypriot institutions falling under foreign control in case of political deadlock... There were no good reason for Greek Cypriots to accept this.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:46
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Cat Mattress posted:The Annan Plan was pretty bad. Heavy restrictions on the right of return, Turkey being granted the right to keep occupying in perpetuity and to further intervene militarily unilaterally, Cypriot institutions falling under foreign control in case of political deadlock... There were no good reason for Greek Cypriots to accept this. Especially considering the plan allowed for more than half of Greek Cypriots the right of return and more importantly, the right to their property in the North by any means, I don't see how this was a bad deal. Turkish Cypriots maintaining their own federated governing entity and the Greek Cypriots doing the same does not translate into Cypriot institutions falling under foreign control. Turkish Cypriots aren't foreigners, and Turkey being kept as a guarantor for the newly envisioned Unified Cyprus along with the UK and Greece does not mean Turkey being granted the right to keep occupying in perpetuity. Add to that how Greek nationalists tried several times to just commit pogroms against the Turkish Cypriots between 1950s until 1974 to diminish the numbers of Turkish Cypriots and to roll back Cyprus into Greece, and one can easily perceive how Turkey remaining as a guarantor for the independence and the integrity of the Unified Cypriot state is just as essential as Greece remaining as a guarantor for the same. This whole "Cyprus must be Greek" and "Cyprus must be Turkish" sentiment is anathema to any actual, reasonable solution. almighty fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 23:15
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almighty posted:Turkish Cypriots voted for Annan Plan in overwhelming numbers, They're not afraid of Turkish soldiers you dingdong lol. Well, they weren't anyway. Nowadays they might actually be pretty nervous on their culture being mutated by Erdogan, and attempts being made to annex the place to being part of Turkey. Not to mention the destruction of their real democracy and free press. I mean Erodgan has already funneled over thugs to beat up Turkish Cypriot journalists, but I'm sure that's the full extent of what modern Turkey would ever do. quote:and I believe the popular opinion is still for a Turkish Army presence because especially the older generation sees the Turkish Army as their savior from the ethnic violence which necessitated the intervention to begin with. If ethnic violence had been the trigger for the 74 invasion, then Turkey would have invaded in 1963. The phantom of worse violence under the Sampson coup regime was the general idea of why intervention was needed. Except the collapse of that regime precipitated the huge push to take half the island and cleanse the Greeks? The invasion was in two phases, the first was a landing in Kyrenia that led to the Sampson regime collapsing, the second was the huge disaster nightmare. As if the second push was "Eh gently caress it, let's just homogenize this mess and get a de facto control of the area out of it". The Turkish Cypriot fears about communal violence that will turbofuck them is understandable, and the natural counterpart of the Greek fear of your armies. I don't really think poo poo would go down anymore, but that doesn't matter, the fears are to be respected. But neutral peacekeepers are the solution to that, or god forbid the British army actually does something to pay for their rent free bullshit bases. quote:Unless there are solid guarantees the rights of the Turkish Cypriots will not be undermined and they will not be slaughtered, Turkey will continue to position itself on the island and there will be Turkish Cypriot popular support for it. lol https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/08/erdogan-flies-into-northern-cyprus-to-wary-welcome quote:I'm afraid all that name calling is not going to help your argument despite what you might be thinking. You are lump summing every Turk and Turkish Cypriot I haven't said a single thing bad about the Turkish Cypriots. But really I haven't made any racist comments about Turkish Turks either lol. You're just having a hard time stomaching people calling out your country for being extremely prone to violent jingoism. I'm American so I only have the tiniest violin in the world for you having to suffer the indignity of this experience. Turkey is a powerful country under the influence of crazy minded arrogance, and a generally malign influence on it's near neighbors? Welcome to the club. Have you met Russia and the UK? quote:Such caricaturisation and reductio ad absurdum is not only childish and immature, but also inherently racist and bigoted. Notice how I essentially avoid bringing up Greek ultra-nationalist tendencies and how I avoid superficial simplifications such as "Greeks are just aggressive ultranationalists just want to get Cyprus and be done with this whole thing". Tell me what the last warmongering nationalist adventurism that Greece or the Cyprus Republic have gone on. The Macedonian name dispute hasn't shed blood last I checked. Also you keep talking like Greece is going to just be in control, as if the choice is Turkey or Greece. That the choice is never Cyprus. Like you don't even believe in Cypriot sovereignty, like the whole thing is a nationalist zero sum game between the two "mother"lands. Like tell me, do you think Enosis is still a thing? quote:As anyone can understand, the Greek Cypriots ended up voting no because both the Greek Church and the Greek Cypriot leadership campaigned for a no. The federated solution suggested by the Annan Plan ensues a fair power-sharing measure between both Turkish and Greek Cypriot communities and would have precluded any further Greek nationalist attempt to unify Cyprus with Greece as it has been the case several times until 1974. You have to understand the Greek Cypriots also being really iffy on the "power sharing" idea. A federation at this point makes some sense, but tell me what the populations are here. Turkish Cypriots are like 1/5 of the islands population at most. Equalizing a 50/50 balance of power is how you say, un-democratic.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:16
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Grape posted:If ethnic violence had been the trigger for the 74 invasion, then Turkey would have invaded in 1963. It was, and that is key to planning any potential roadmap to unification. Otherwise, we might as well just keep the status quo for eternity. The reason Turkey did not intervene in 1963 and 1964 was because the Americans essentially told "If you are going to go in and end up landing yourselves in a pickle with the USSR over Cyprus, you can forget about NATO bailing you out" to Ankara in a letter from President Johnson to Turkish President Inonu. This was rather lovely, because it ultimately ended up making the Greek nationalists think that they would be able to get away with committing ethnic violence by raping and killing Turkish Cypriots to drive them off of the island until 1974 when finally Turkey just said "gently caress it" and exercised its rights as a guarantor state party to the Treaty of London. IMHO it was a mistake to stage the August offensive after the initial July landings because the Greek nationalist junta ended up getting overthrown and situation looked like it could have been stabilized, but like I've said at that point Turkish politicians and Turkish military had zero confidence that further ethnic strife could have been prevented by Greek Cypriot opposition to the Greek nationalists, especially in light of the previous rounds of pogroms having been committed against Turkish Cypriots in 1963, 1964 and 1967. Of course there was the also the ulterior motive of preventing Enosis, because Greek nationalists succeeding in unifying Cyprus with Greece would have resulted in Turkey getting cut off from the Mediterranean due to expanded Greek territorial waters. Now, much like you, I would also like to think of present day Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities as grown adults and I would rather see them reconciling, but unless that is done under Turkey and Greece acting both as guarantor states and in unison under a fair and balanced manner that bestows equal political rights to both communities, the chances of a successful North and South unification is slim to none. This is because the actual realpolitik driver for maintaining current status quo is the dispute over Aegean sovereignty between Turkey and Greece regarding their territorial waters, and Cyprus issue is just a symptom of that larger problem. almighty fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 23:37
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This got a bit lost in the Ottoman Empire genocide defenders squad debate, but its really interesting (and true). That girl would very likely have been completely screwed if she hadn't had a phone and internet access. Unfortunately it seems the Saudis have learnt from this, and won't make the same mistake again if they can help it. Hopefully we do see more high profile successful escapes from Saudi, though. Its got to help even slightly keep the spotlight on how terrible they are.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:58
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almighty posted:If by reprisals you mean the suppression of the Sheikh Said rebellion, I tend to disagree. After all, Sheikh Said rebellion is arguably more of a fundamentalist (Islamist) uprising rather than a Kurdish nationalist or a socialist one. Sheikh Said and former Ottoman Hamidiye Battalions loyal to him rose against the secular direction the young republic took in 1925 directly as a result of Ataturk abolishing the Islamic Caliphate. They essentially wanted the Caliphate back. 1. The Sheikh Said rebellion was only one of a series of rebellions across the 1920s/30s, and it also had both a distinctly Kurdish and religious character. 2. Hamidiye battalions were both only one group involved in the genocide, honestly, they had vastly less control over the situation than the Porte/Ottoman officer corps who under the entire played the thing out both in 1896 and 1915. (Also, the Turks weren't going after Kurds because some of them were involved with the genocide, but because they were Kurdish and a lesser extent was the religious motivation.) Btw, one big issue was the fear that the British would try to pressure the establishment of a independent Kurdistan. 3. Also, the PKK and its rebellion in SE Turkey were also influenced by the violent suppression of the Kurdish population just a few decades early even if they were guided by different organizations with different ideologies. Also, at least you acknowledge that the development of the PKK was directly guided by the Turkish government itself, and will likely continue to be so. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jan 9, 2019 |
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Jan 9, 2019 00:19
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The Kurds weren't even allowed to have a Kurdish language TV station until... 2000? I think? Talk about the government having their best interest at heart.
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Jan 9, 2019 00:34
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steinrokkan posted:The Kurds weren't even allowed to have a Kurdish language TV station until... 2000? I think? Talk about the government having their best interest at heart. Citation needed?
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Jan 9, 2019 00:41
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Imagine if Germany had declared war on Israel in 1948. Now remember that Turkey actually did that to Armenia.
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Jan 9, 2019 00:44
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almighty posted:but unless that is done under Turkey and Greece acting both as guarantor states No, I think it should be neither of them. It should be countries that are largely neutral in the dispute and which could be trusted by the full population of Cyprus not to commit or cover acts of violence against any community of the island.
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Jan 9, 2019 01:00
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almighty posted:It was, and that is key to planning any potential roadmap to unification. Otherwise, we might as well just keep the status quo for eternity. A thing you aren't grasping, both with this AND with the Annan vote results, is that the status quo only hurts the Greek Cypriots mostly in their hearts. While it definitely hurts the Turkish Cypriots in their wallets as well as hearts. They exist in a picture perfect example of a rump state. The number one thought I had when I visited the north (in Famagusta especially) was "underpopulated". The Greek side is doing well, even recovered from their banking crisis pretty quick. It's infinitely more productive and functional than Greece is. There's always more tourists willing to come and invest, even if the Brits dry up soon you still have Chinese investors starting to push in. Point is: The people most hurt by the status quo are the Turkish Cypriots. So thrusting "well maybe stuff will just stay the same!" out as some ultimatum is not helping the people you imagine it is. quote:This was rather lovely, because it ultimately ended up making the Greek nationalists think that they would be able to get away with committing ethnic violence by raping and killing Turkish Cypriots to drive them off of the island until 1974 The violence was largely limited to up to 64', the tragedy for the TC's after that was their living mostly in enclaves isolated from the Greeks (in urban areas anyway). There wasn't much communal violence between 64 and 74. You know very well what happened in 74' to make things kick off. quote:When finally Turkey just said "gently caress it" and exercised its rights as a guarantor state party to the Treaty of London. IMHO it was a mistake to stage the August offensive after the initial July landings because the Greek nationalist junta ended up getting overthrown and situation looked like it could have been stabilized, but like I've said at that point Turkish politicians and Turkish military had zero confidence that further ethnic strife could have been prevented by Greek Cypriot opposition to the Greek nationalists, especially in light of the previous rounds of pogroms having been committed against Turkish Cypriots in 1963, 1964 and 1967. "Gotta stop these pogroms! *commits reverse pogrom on a massive far larger scale*" "I'm the good guy!" Remind me also, what was the actual right one had as a guarantor? Because it did not involve what they ended up doing. quote:Of course there was the also the ulterior motive of preventing Enosis, because Greek nationalists succeeding in unifying Cyprus with Greece would have resulted in Turkey getting cut off from the Mediterranean due to expanded Greek territorial waters. Enosis was stupid and terrible. And Turkey did Half-Reverse Enosis, and you seem fine with this of course. Enosis is also entirely extinct as an ideology. quote:Now, much like you, I would also like to think of present day Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities as grown adults and I would rather see them reconciling, but unless that is done under Turkey and Greece acting both as guarantor states Why should either of those countries have anything to do with it? You both hosed both of your ethnic compatriots over in 74, and they know it. Leave them alone for once lol. quote:the chances of a successful North and South unification is slim to none. This is because the actual realpolitik driver for maintaining current status quo is the dispute over Aegean sovereignty between Turkey and Greece regarding their territorial waters, and Cyprus issue is just a symptom of that larger problem. The Cyprus divide is so fundamentally absurd that I think long term it will dissolve, even if unofficially (unless Turkey leans harder on the annexation talks, and military presence). The island is smaller than Connecticut, the capital is literally divided by walls, and one huge portion of another city has been in stasis for 45 years. And the people are extremely similar culturally on top of it all. I crossed the border several times (and it's even easier now then when I did it). It's like a Coen Brothers version of the Korea split. I think we'll just keep seeing political deadlock, but increasingly liquid borders and border rules, and it will de facto slip into one thing. Like I said before too, the more immigrants come over the more further ridiculous the whole thing gets. Or Erdogan ruins everything. That could happened. Because my point all along has really been if something fucks things up? It's Turkey. Grape fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jan 9, 2019 |
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Jan 9, 2019 01:58
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qkkl posted:Imagine if Germany had declared war on Israel in 1948. Now remember that Turkey actually did that to Armenia. I'm not excusing the nearly 200,000 civilians who were killed in the Turkish advance, but this comparison is a little silly because Armenia was occupying a big old chunk of Turkish land. Plus I don't recall a 4 sided war raging in Germany in 1948.
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Jan 9, 2019 03:36
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Anybody here keeping tabs on this? https://twitter.com/monaeltahawy/status/1082462972713283584
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Jan 9, 2019 03:46
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rear end struggle posted:I'm not excusing the nearly 200,000 civilians who were killed in the Turkish advance, but this comparison is a little silly because Armenia was occupying a big old chunk of Turkish land. Plus I don't recall a 4 sided war raging in Germany in 1948. Eh "occupying Turkish land" is a real hot take considering what had happened a couple years earlier. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jan 9, 2019 |
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Jan 9, 2019 03:54
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Off topic, but one thing that I find amusing is conservatives/nationalists/tankies/etc attacking liberals/leftists for not denouncing their own countries own failings. Which the lefties then do, because they were consistently opposed to behaving in a way that's evil.
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Jan 9, 2019 04:04
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RandomPauI posted:Off topic, but one thing that I find amusing is conservatives/nationalists/tankies/etc attacking liberals/leftists for not denouncing their own countries own failings. Which the lefties then do, because they were consistently opposed to behaving in a way that's evil. It reminds me of that whole recent diplomatic spat of Turkey going: "Don't you dare criticize us for the Armenian genocide, Germany! You're the one to talk!" Yeah indeed...a country that paid for it by being split in two for half a century and forming its new national character (at least the western part did) around repentance for it. How dare they criticize you? 
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Jan 9, 2019 07:11
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RandomPauI posted:Off topic, but one thing that I find amusing is conservatives/nationalists/tankies/etc attacking liberals/leftists for not denouncing their own countries own failings. Which the lefties then do, because they were consistently opposed to behaving in a way that's evil. Culture and political environment play a big role in this type of thing. It's not like it requires any sort of bravery, extraordinary intelligence, imagination, or unshakable moral principles to criticize the US for its foreign and domestic policies as an American. That door is wide open to you before you even know how to tie your shoes, and walking through it doesn't inherently make one not a piece of poo poo.
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Jan 9, 2019 08:35
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LeoMarr posted:So will US forces evacuate like a day before the offense comes, then trump announces mission accomplished yup were out of syria. American people cheer at trump bringing are boys home.
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Jan 9, 2019 08:42
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Turkey's doing a stellar job as the guarantor of peace in Idlib: https://twitter.com/Suriyakmaps/status/1083051471443238913
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Jan 9, 2019 18:33
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Didn't Turkey pull a lot of their friendly militia forces out of Idlib to invade northern Syria when it seemed like the US was about to leave a couple weeks ago? This seems like a really awkward moment for Erdogan
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Jan 9, 2019 18:58
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Flavahbeast posted:Didn't Turkey pull a lot of their friendly militia forces out of Idlib to invade northern Syria when it seemed like the US was about to leave a couple weeks ago? This seems like a really awkward moment for Erdogan He pulled their friendly militias out of Aleppo when it was under attack by the regime, so this is just more of the same.
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Jan 9, 2019 19:02
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