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https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1083462317831000064
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Jan 10, 2019 21:50
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selec posted:We do talk honestly, though. What should I say? "Trump's very racist. If you support him, you're racist too." My favorite part of this hypothetical exchange is that you cut off at the point where they admit to being anti-women while also saying that people who don't exist are more important than living POC.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:51
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Majorian posted:Do you really think that's what he was saying? I mean it's literally claiming both sides had the same policy position wrt Iraq and then using that to justify voter apathy. This despite the fact that the article has examples of policy differences that directly related to the voter's situations. What's the other interpretation?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:51
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Koalas March posted:But apparently you can't talk honestly, that's what your whole post was about. You refuse to talk honestly to them because you're putting your personal comfort over antiracism. I think his point is that engagement does not have to equal violent confrontation that ends relationships. Some people you can convince through gradually educating them on the issues and trying to peel away the blindfold of conservative media. You don't succeed at that if you're shouting at them. There is a very narrow gap of people who vote republican and think they are doing the right thing because they are ill-informed. That's what makes Fox news dangerous, because the people who watch it don't realize they're being fed propaganda. I can have calm discussions with my in-laws where we don't agree on things, but it is worth it because each time they come away knowing a little more than they did. Some people are in too deep and are dark and evil people, but not every republican is, and you can't tell until you talk to them.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:51
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Crow Jane posted:Being pro-life is pretty bad in and of itself, imo I’m pro-death but only in specific circumstances. Old people trying to drag society into the shitter before they die, absolutely pro-death. Dogs and cats, not so much. I’ll even give an exception to horses too (not horse people though, ugh just ugh).
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Jan 10, 2019 21:51
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Crow Jane posted:Being pro-life is pretty bad in and of itself, imo Omg RIGHT. I tried pointing this out but it got lost. Like I wouldn't even associate with anti-choice people selec posted:It's pretty fuckin' racist to use Sherpa in that context, fwiw. Is it? We'll I apologise! trap sprung. Look how easy that was!
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Jan 10, 2019 21:52
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Lemming posted:My dad used to be a Republican. I've been calling Republicans evil racist fuckers for years. He always argued against it. Trump happened, and since he's fundamentally still a good person who was definitely fooled for a long time, went "what the gently caress," admitted I was right, and now agrees with the arguments I've been making. Yeah he's not gonna be a full blown socialist any time soon, but since he was a person who could be convinced with enough time and effort it was worth the process. It was still bad and wrong of him not to change his mind earlier. That's the thing, I don't think they're racists in the sense that we can meaningfully have an argument with them about it because the entire culture around them, even secular culture, signals to them that they aren't; the idea of the racial caste system we live under is, outside these forums or Twitter, a loving wild, radical idea. I mean, we're all using a definition of racist here that we couldn't convince Obama to endorse. Remember when he forced Skip Gates to have a beer with the cop who arrested him in his own home? Yeah, good times.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:52
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selec posted:I've cut a few people out post-2016 for racism. But as I said, it's hard to detect the racism we're all sure is in my in-laws hearts, because they recoil at expressions of it, are deeply comfortable around people of color like their family members, and in the end, just prioritize pro-life politics over everything. Lol no you haven't. Also if they voted for Trump they are racist hope this helps.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:52
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Paradoxish posted:I also feel like being afraid to call out racism is kind of implicitly supporting the standard response to being a called a racist, which is to just get pissed off and defensive. No one should be afraid to call out racism because the proper response to being called a racist is to maybe reevaluate your life and stop being a loving racist. By letting racists go unchallenged we're just reinforcing this idea that being called a racist is the worst thing that can happen to you and not potentially an opportunity to stop being a loving awful person. Look, it’s one thing to sever ties with some Facebook dick bag or a family member who has just always been abusive toward you. But sometimes you have to be around people you have complex, long standing relationships with for an extended time. I had to go through three loving bottles of top shelf Japanese whiskey to make it a week with my mom visiting for the holidays, because my fiancée and my mother would be better served by a cage match than preparing holiday meals in the same kitchen. My liver just isn’t loving biologically equipped to do what it would take to power through confronting the amazingly stubborn ~70 year old Fox News junkie who gave birth to me about every stupid political opinion she expresses in a week long visit. I would die of alcohol poisoning before the first gift was open, and she wouldn’t move an inch to the left after it was done. It’s the same thing with the fiancee’s family. With the exception of her brothers, who are genuinely delightful human beings, her family are walking, talking stereotypes. We decided long ago that it’s highly unlikely a man who clips a Glock to his jorts at an 8 year old’s birthday party is going to be worth engaging on why it’s problematic to call the black cards in Cards Against Humanity “n-word cards.” We just stress ate some more cake instead and decided we’d mail a gift card in future years.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:53
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I just looked this up and the Smithsonian website actually has the earliest recorded wheels around 3500 BC and walls at 11,500 BC so it's actually 7000 years. Those first wheels were spinning wheels used for pottery, not transportation. Transportation with wheels came about 300 years later.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:53
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Paradoxish posted:My favorite part of this hypothetical exchange is that you cut off at the point where they admit to being anti-women while also saying that people who don't exist are more important than living POC. Oh yeah, they definitely believe some anti-woman poo poo. Purity balls! But how do you convince them that's bad, when they did it, truly, because they were told and believed it was what was for the best for their daughters? Besides the fact that that's not my fight to have, that's something their daughters have to take on. I'm not going to get into fights not even my wife wants to have on her behalf, because that would be a super dick move.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:53
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Crow Jane posted:Being pro-life is pretty bad in and of itself, imo literally had a coworker tell me 100% seriously that being raped doesn't excuse getting an abortion edit; i'm still shaking with rage so i don't know how to respond that isn't slamming his head into a desk
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Jan 10, 2019 21:54
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Koalas March posted:Omg RIGHT. I tried pointing this out but it got lost. Like I wouldn't even associate with anti-choice people I used to do it all the time until somebody called it out as essentializing an entire people as laborers.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:54
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selec posted:That's the thing, I don't think they're racists in the sense that we can meaningfully have an argument with them about it because the entire culture around them, even secular culture, signals to them that they aren't; the idea of the racial caste system we live under is, outside these forums or Twitter, a loving wild, radical idea. "It's hard, I'm comfortable with their racism, and I don't want to try." This is supporting and perpetuating racism and white supremacy. That's just a fact. It's more and more clear that your idea of what a good political strategy is is whatever you think will make you most comfortable in your own life.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:54
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HappyHippo posted:I mean it's literally claiming both sides had the same policy position wrt Iraq It seems to me that VS was claiming that both sides supported continuing the war to some degree or other, as opposed to there being a choice between "war" and "not war." That's not saying that there was no difference between the positions, just that it wasn't THAT much of a "choice."
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Jan 10, 2019 21:54
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Griffen posted:I think his point is that engagement does not have to equal violent confrontation that ends relationships. Some people you can convince through gradually educating them on the issues and trying to peel away the blindfold of conservative media. You don't succeed at that if you're shouting at them. I think it's clear you didn't read any of my posts it, or elsewhere. I didn't even advocate for an aggressive response. He was the one acting like it was a furious confrontation or nothing. I was very, very carefully pointing out different approaches. Why are you assuming otherwise? Angry black posters amirite?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:55
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Tatsuta Age posted:Ok I laughed pretty hard at this. Such leadership Haha, he fucks up the lightest of weight questions.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:55
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Lotta people itt who would be 50x happier cutting all the bigoted shitstains out of their life rather than trying to get everyone to get along.bloodysabbath posted:Look, it’s one thing to sever ties with some Facebook dick bag or a family member who has just always been abusive toward you. But sometimes you have to be around people you have complex, long standing relationships with for an extended time. E: see above, jfc dude
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Jan 10, 2019 21:55
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Toobly posted:I just looked this up and the Smithsonian website actually has the earliest recorded wheels around 3500 BC and walls at 11,500 BC so it's actually 7000 years. Those first wheels were spinning wheels used for pottery, not transportation. Transportation with wheels came about 300 years later. thank y'all for looking that up because my first reaction was "that sounds wrong" but I didn't want to actually google it
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Jan 10, 2019 21:55
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Asema posted:literally had a coworker tell me 100% seriously that being raped doesn't excuse getting an abortion
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Jan 10, 2019 21:56
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Toobly posted:I just looked this up and the Smithsonian website actually has the earliest recorded wheels around 3500 BC and walls at 11,500 BC so it's actually 7000 years. Those first wheels were spinning wheels used for pottery, not transportation. Transportation with wheels came about 300 years later. One day some person was spinning thread and the wheel broke off its axle and rolled like 30
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Jan 10, 2019 21:56
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:One day some person was spinning thread and the wheel broke off its axle and rolled like 30 More likely they all knew it would work but had enough slaves carrying stuff around that they didn't really need to bother.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:57
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UsPol Winter: The wheel fact from Trump is Wrong and Wrong
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Jan 10, 2019 21:57
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HappyHippo posted:I mean it's literally claiming both sides had the same policy position wrt Iraq and then using that to justify voter apathy. This despite the fact that the article has examples of policy differences that directly related to the voter's situations. What's the other interpretation? They did have the same policy position wrt to Iraq. Kerry claimed he would be a better administrator of the war both candidates agreed on, but his plans were dumb and wouldn't have worked, and voters may not have known why but they rightly distrusted someone dumb enough to believe "omg aluminum tubes! we're all doomed!" in the first place. So Matthews gets in a snit and writes about how Kerry's awesome war skillz are just too pure and good for the troglodytic masses. E: You're basically doing the thing where we artificially constrain the discussion to a set of identical values and then talk about disagreements wrt to how to administer these elite-approved values as if that's a meaningful difference and the only possible bailiwick wherein choice can operate. The choice of not having a war isn't allowed, and to you, that somehow doesn't equate to depriving people of a choice. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jan 10, 2019 |
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Jan 10, 2019 21:57
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selec posted:It's an interesting question! I'd say they are not very racist. I mean, in the sense of "seeing racist poo poo acted out." I've never heard welfare queen poo poo from them, because anabaptists know people who rely on welfare, if they haven't themselves. I've never heard poo poo about who's lazy or not, because they are strong on the idea that we all struggle, and sometimes struggles aren't visible to us. I've never heard poo poo about Mexicans invading our country, because their church sponsors immigrants and refugees. I'm only vaguely following this little thread but maybe the point here is that if they are these good people you're describing but always vote republican, then that right there is the secret racism. They vote for a racist party that enacts racists policies so they're endorsing and supporting racism. That's the conversation to be had.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:57
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Xombie posted:You want to re-think this sentence? No, I'm good with it. I never said other countries didn't or couldn't do terrible things. Just that certain cultures can escalate to that level faster and easier than others. France rounded up plenty of people for the gas chambers, but it also had a spirited resistance. Italy was in alliance with Germany, but they largely protected their Jews and other persecuted groups until they surrendered and Germany took over half the country. Germany happened in part because their culture allowed it to happen. American slavery and racial oppression is similar in that it often
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Jan 10, 2019 21:58
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Lemming posted:Lol no you haven't. No I fuckin' have, bro. I had a friend, basically my mini-me right down to male pattern baldness. We made an entire album of beats together, worked in the same industry, and he fell down the qanon hole. He was like a brother to me; I owe the incredible job I have now to him. And I'm so mad and worried about him, but I don't talk to him, and I told him to lose my number after we finally had it out and he said "there's racism on both sides equally" and "white men are definitely subject to more racism than black people now". You may want to say I'm lying because it decomplicates things for you, but I'm not. So gently caress off, weirdo.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:58
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I know this is a wild concept, but you can disinvite your racist relatives from holidays and invite your down to earth friends instead and actually enjoy your holidays and build lasting, cherished memories not this stockholm syndrome, 'well she birthed me so I have to sacrifice my happiness and well-being so she can have a family holiday experience where she spews toxicity and anger on everyone'
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Jan 10, 2019 21:58
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selec posted:Oh yeah, they definitely believe some anti-woman poo poo. Purity balls! But how do you convince them that's bad, when they did it, truly, because they were told and believed it was what was for the best for their daughters? Oh my Christ Ok I found the issue, you think the opressed should be the ones on the front lines when in reality you as the privileged white male adult should be using your privilege to help loving oh my God Are you going to let them bully you into sending your daughter to a purity ball??? I can see the r/relationships post already..
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Jan 10, 2019 21:58
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selec posted:Oh yeah, they definitely believe some anti-woman poo poo. Purity balls! But how do you convince them that's bad, when they did it, truly, because they were told and believed it was what was for the best for their daughters?  I think the point people are making is being a good ally means kind having fights that "aren't yours."?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:59
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Purity balls take things to a whole other level, jfc 
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Jan 10, 2019 22:00
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https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1083464302537920513
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Jan 10, 2019 22:00
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VitalSigns posted:They clearly aren't, but if you can't articulate a single concrete thing your candidate will do for anyone that's a problem with the candidate and the campaign. I agree, and in fact that's one of the two solutions the essay proposes: doing better at speaking to the voters where they are, rather than expecting them to come to you. He's a little snide about that solution, which isn't surprising given who Chris Hayes is and the circumstances in which he wrote the essay. The other solution ("rebuilding an accessible political vocabulary") I would instead propose as "build a more accessible politics," by rebuilding public education, doing structural changes to make politics on all levels more transparent and responsive, fix the damage Reagan and his ilk did to social programs to destroy them and minimize their visibility, and the like. AOC is doing exactly that by streaming her experience in Congress camp on her Instagram story.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:00
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Majorian posted:It seems to me that VS was claiming that both sides supported continuing the war to some degree or other, as opposed to there being a choice between "war" and "not war." That's not saying that there was no difference between the positions, just that it wasn't THAT much of a "choice." But the war wasn't the only "issue" during the campaign. The article brings up others (such as tort reform or healthcare) that directly affected the voters he was talking to, and yet they were unaware that these were even political issues, or even more fundamentally that issues in their personal lives had any relation to politics at all.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:01
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Asema posted:literally had a coworker tell me 100% seriously that being raped doesn't excuse getting an abortion That's a position that's actually consistent with the idea that a fetus is a human life and must be protected as such, against any wishes of the mother. It's a stupid and bad position, to be sure, but it is internally consistent. The idea that abortion is acceptable in the case of rape, but not in any other circumstances, cannot come from the idea that the fetus is a human life, because then you're saying it's okay to kill a human simply because of the circumstances of their conception. Therefore, the only logical conclusion one can draw is that preventing abortions is solely about controlling women and punishing them for having sex. All anti-choice people are shitheads, but at least the "absolutely no abortion" camp is honest about their motivations.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:01
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I know this is a wild concept, but you can disinvite your racist relatives from holidays and invite your down to earth friends instead and actually enjoy your holidays and build lasting, cherished memories not this stockholm syndrome, 'well she birthed me so I have to sacrifice my happiness and well-being so she can have a family holiday experience where she spews toxicity and anger on everyone' Seriously holy poo poo You are grown adults you don't have to have people who can't even get through card games without dropping n bombs at your place of residence fuuuuck
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Jan 10, 2019 22:01
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Levitate posted:I'm only vaguely following this little thread but maybe the point here is that if they are these good people you're describing but always vote republican, then that right there is the secret racism. They vote for a racist party that enacts racists policies so they're endorsing and supporting racism. That's the conversation to be had. I think once we're down to "Let's discover your secret racist heart" it's probably not a discussion worth having. I love that we've found the one topic that this thread is 100% almost reliably way, way more radical on than the entire Democratic establishment is, though. Obama himself would tell you you're letting your anger cloud your humanity. And I think that guy's generally a huge poo poo, but in some ways he's right about trying to understand humans as a path to living alongside them.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:01
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"reversing roe" on netflix was a tough watch.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:02
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Oxyclean posted:On the other hand, if they have some pretty regressive views, they might be more likely to listen to you over a woman. If someone specifically tells you not to fight something on their behalf, you are obligated to listen to them, white savior complex or no.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:02
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Koalas March posted:gently caress no My god, you loving weirdo. I got angry at that poo poo, and my wife said "This isn't your fight." You: NO, NO IT IS.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:02
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