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Considering that prime time cartoons like The Critic (and Capitol Critters and Fish Police and Family Dog and all the other also-rans that were cranked out overnight in 1990) were baldfaced responses to the Simpsons becoming a surprise hit, I wonder whether such a genre would even exist today.
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Jan 10, 2019 16:40
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Data Graham posted:Considering that prime time cartoons like The Critic (and Capitol Critters and Fish Police and Family Dog and all the other also-rans that were cranked out overnight in 1990) were baldfaced responses to the Simpsons becoming a surprise hit, I wonder whether such a genre would even exist today. Yeah I think it's possible South Park would have been the first and "invented" the genre because those guys were working so far outside the system and Comedy Central was willing to take big risks at the time. Plus the original South Park shorts were among the first viral videos, so they'd proved themselves popular before getting an investment, a lot like the Simpsons with Tracey Ullman
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Jan 10, 2019 16:44
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One thing that always impresses me about old Simpsons is how well the movie/tv references were done. Even if you don't get the reference, they're usually funny enough to stand on their own. The scene when Bart tells the guy the stream is shallow and he's yelling at Bart while the car is sinking nearly made me piss myself laughing as a kid. I didn't find out for years that whole scene was a homage to a movie from the sixties.
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Jan 10, 2019 17:07
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Painful Dart Bomb posted:One thing that always impresses me about old Simpsons is how well the movie/tv references were done. Even if you don't get the reference, they're usually funny enough to stand on their own. The scene when Bart tells the guy the stream is shallow and he's yelling at Bart while the car is sinking nearly made me piss myself laughing as a kid. I didn't find out for years that whole scene was a homage to a movie from the sixties. Old Simpsons is full of layered jokes like that. Funny on the surface, and hilarious when someone knows the rest of it.
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Jan 10, 2019 17:09
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Painful Dart Bomb posted:One thing that always impresses me about old Simpsons is how well the movie/tv references were done. Even if you don't get the reference, they're usually funny enough to stand on their own. The scene when Bart tells the guy the stream is shallow and he's yelling at Bart while the car is sinking nearly made me piss myself laughing as a kid. I didn't find out for years that whole scene was a homage to a movie from the sixties. And the cat burglar character was an homage to a different movie from the sixties 
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Jan 10, 2019 17:27
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Wow, just look at this clip and think of how it'd be animated in the new style. As a mid-show clip, it's a much fair-er comparison since title animations usually get extra attention. Some things to note: mel's necklace moving, the hip twist, the way his face moves, burns' head turn, and a background of unknowns https://media.giphy.com/media/l2Je06sjaUIu4zTrO/giphy.gif
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Jan 10, 2019 17:40
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PostNouveau posted:Yeah I think it's possible South Park would have been the first and "invented" the genre because those guys were working so far outside the system and Comedy Central was willing to take big risks at the time. Plus the original South Park shorts were among the first viral videos, so they'd proved themselves popular before getting an investment, a lot like the Simpsons with Tracey Ullman But you also have to wonder if even THAT would happen. People got into the tv animation biz because of the Simpsons. The boom that happened inspired a ton of people to try and get their own “Simpsons” going on a major network. You could argue that if the Simpsons bombed hard, Cartoon Network’s “What a Cartoon”, Nickelodeon’s animation boom, Adult Swim, South Park, and even early internet flash shows wouldn’t have happened. It didn’t just prove animation could be profitable, it proved it could be successful with adults and could therefore bring in merchandising AND ad revenue.
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Jan 10, 2019 17:52
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Data Graham posted:Considering that prime time cartoons like The Critic ... were baldfaced responses to the Simpsons GPTribefan posted:But you also have to wonder if even THAT would happen. We would probably still get Nickelodeon's various cartoons (different demographic) and maybe Liquid Television on MTV as an animation showcase. Not much else I can see breaking through though.
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Jan 10, 2019 18:03
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I would suspect eventually SOMETHING would happen and be successful, but who knows what it would be. Ralph Bakshi proved that cartoons work for adults back in the 70s, so eventually someone was going to carry that torch into the mainstream. Just a matter of who and when. Today’s tv landscape definitely would be vastly different, though, as whatever that “adult cartoon” wound up being would likely have shifted how everything after it came out.
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Jan 10, 2019 18:18
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The Critic was intentionally more aimed directly at kids than the simpsons was. Still a great show, just more 'wacky' at times.
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Jan 10, 2019 18:20
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CodfishCartographer posted:I would suspect eventually SOMETHING would happen and be successful, but who knows what it would be. Ralph Bakshi proved that cartoons work for adults back in the 70s, so eventually someone was going to carry that torch into the mainstream. Just a matter of who and when. Today’s tv landscape definitely would be vastly different, though, as whatever that “adult cartoon” wound up being would likely have shifted how everything after it came out. And animation always presents all kinds of creative options that live-action does not. Someone would have experimented with it one way or another. Two-camera sitcoms can only take a network so far. Bakshi is an interesting example, because pre-CGI, animation was the only way to make Lord of the Rings work.
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Jan 10, 2019 18:38
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PostNouveau posted:Wasn't it a pretty big hit from the Ullman shorts though? I personally subscribe to the "Fox was desperate to get something, anything on the air" theory because I cannot loving stand the Tracey Ullman shorts and have no idea how they made the transition from those to even season 1 quality, let alone what the show later became. And I like season 1. I guess that being a baby when the show started airing, I just don't have a comprehension of how bad TV was that those shorts were considered irreverent/entertaining/funny.
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Jan 10, 2019 18:43
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Sagebrush posted:I personally subscribe to the "Fox was desperate to get something, anything on the air" theory because I cannot loving stand the Tracey Ullman shorts and have no idea how they made the transition from those to even season 1 quality, let alone what the show later became. And I like season 1. They're super awful, I agree, but they were a big hit, no?
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Jan 10, 2019 18:45
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FilthyImp posted:Yeah. Without Bart as a prototype, I'm not sure Cartman gets to exist. Dennis the Menace was the typical 'bad' kid before then, right? Outside of the Simpsons, MTV/Nick had a lot of success with cartoons appealing to teens/adults/pop culture with Ren and Stimpy and Beavis and Butthead without even really trying to go for that level of attention. Simpsons had the backbone of primetime family sitcom satire to it, which likely helped it on broadcast. But without the Simpsons having that 'family sitcom' appeal, we might have seen animators veer away from trying to make stuff for that prime-time market for them and just had cable like USA, Nick, MTV and Comedy Central pick up the slack by going for youth/counter culture audiences. Fox did experiment a few times in the early 90s with the Batman:TAS airing in prime-time hours, while the Burton Batmania was still somewhat alive, too. Again, without the primetime sitcom success of the Simpsons as the thing everything was getting measured against, MAYBE Fox would have stuck with and supported Batman:TAS a bit longer and a bit harder. We might have had the family action/adventure cartoon format become the defining prime-time animation format, instead. Stuff like Gargoyles, Johnny Quest, etc. might have ended up developed less for a Saturday morning/afterschool audience and changed into something for a prime-time. By the time further attempts like Invasion America came out, it might have been accepted as a norm rather than something new. Anime is/was another option. Late 80s it was still largely only a format that had a small cult following in the US, but IF the Batman Era had been a real thing, coupled with the Power Rangers boom, someone like Carl Macek probably could have found a largely PG-13 anime series or two and recut and redubbed it for a US prime time audience. We might have been watching some retitled, redubbed version of Gundam on NBC by 1994 ,a few years before the actual anime boom started in the US.
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Jan 10, 2019 18:46
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JediTalentAgent posted:Anime is/was another option. Late 80s it was still largely only a format that had a small cult following in the US, but IF the Batman Era had been a real thing, coupled with the Power Rangers boom, someone like Carl Macek probably could have found a largely PG-13 anime series or two and recut and redubbed it for a US prime time audience. We might have been watching some retitled, redubbed version of Gundam on NBC by 1994 ,a few years before the actual anime boom started in the US. And I thought we were already living in the worst timeline.
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Jan 10, 2019 18:50
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PostNouveau posted:They'd announced that they wouldn't release them on DVD anymore. I guess technically a single fan might have demanded it. Maybe one of the writers's mother
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Jan 10, 2019 19:00
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By around that same time, TBS/TNT was doing occasional late-night showings of various anime/adult animation productions: Vampire Hunter D, Robot Carnival, Twilight of the Cockroaches, Heavy Metal. If the anime boom in the US was instead started about 3-5 years sooner, with content that could become popular without it being based on video games or fighting anime, as well as content chosen and edited down to appease network censors and audiences, there might have been a different overall tone to the fandom and format in the US over the next 20+ years. Some short series or productions might have gotten a US Broadcaster release as miniseries (as were still popular at the time) with the draw being some fairly popular actors redubbing the voices. It would have also been in the midst of the Disney animation revival with their LIttle Mermaid, BatB, Lion King and Aladdin successes, anyway, most of which had celebrity voices in them.
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Jan 10, 2019 19:07
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Improbable Lobster posted:The Critic was intentionally more aimed directly at kids than the simpsons was. Still a great show, just more 'wacky' at times. Ah yeah. Kids love Orson Welles and Marlon Brando jokes.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:32
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Detective No. 27 posted:Ah yeah. Kids love Orson Welles and Marlon Brando jokes. Kids love fat people jokes
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Jan 10, 2019 20:39
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Data Graham posted:And the cat burglar character was an homage to a different movie from the sixties Holy crap  One thing I also appreciated about the early episodes of Family Guy was how a lot of the old things Peter referenced were shows and movies that a guy his age would have probably enjoyed. It made him seem more like a real person and not just a vehicle for jokes.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:38
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Detective No. 27 posted:Ah yeah. Kids love Orson Welles and Marlon Brando jokes. orson welles and marlon brando used to get ripped on in every kid's cartoon back in the day - hell pinky and the brain is basically an entire show about making fun of orson welles.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:44
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Detective No. 27 posted:Ah yeah. Kids love Orson Welles and Marlon Brando jokes. As a kid that grew up watching shows like the critic and pinky and the brain, yes.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:52
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Detective No. 27 posted:Ah yeah. Kids love Orson Welles and Marlon Brando jokes. I'm not supporting the idea that The Critic was aimed at kids due to its mad-cap writing, but the writes come in with age-appropriate cultural cache and that's why we get stuff like that. See also Looney Tunes jokes that rely on mid 20th century icons or music.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:59
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Brain is modelled after Welles, yeah, but that aspect really isn't a draw for kids. I don't think I even knew about the connection until maybe a decade after Pinky and the Brain ended. Though fat guys are funny, so I guess that checks out.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:11
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FilthyImp posted:I'm not supporting the idea that The Critic was aimed at kids due to its mad-cap writing, but the writes come in with age-appropriate cultural cache and that's why we get stuff like that. The Looney Tunes are actually interesting because in a lot of cases they were more stealing acts than referencing celebrities. Like, Bugs Bunny is funny because Groucho Marx was funny, but understanding that Bugs is by and large a ripoff of Groucho doesn't enhance the comedy any way like understanding the references in the Simpsons often can. The jokes in the old Looney Tunes work or don't work on their own merits whether or not you understand what they are referencing or stealing from, and the knowledge or lack thereof of context really doesn't help or hinder. The Mad Scientist is funny and entertaining because he's a weirdo with an odd demeanor and voice/cadence. Understanding that his voice and appearance were based on Peter Lorre doesn't really make that any more or less funny.
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Jan 11, 2019 01:24
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JediTalentAgent posted:Fox did experiment a few times in the early 90s with the Batman:TAS airing in prime-time hours, while the Burton Batmania was still somewhat alive, too. Again, without the primetime sitcom success of the Simpsons as the thing everything was getting measured against, MAYBE Fox would have stuck with and supported Batman:TAS a bit longer and a bit harder. We might have had the family action/adventure cartoon format become the defining prime-time animation format, instead. Stuff like Gargoyles, Johnny Quest, etc. might have ended up developed less for a Saturday morning/afterschool audience and changed into something for a prime-time. By the time further attempts like Invasion America came out, it might have been accepted as a norm rather than something new. Americans have always sucked doing action/adventure adult animation. Casltevania and Spawn are the only two exceptions.
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Jan 11, 2019 02:14
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The best part about Bart the Genius is the animation in that math train sequence. It's just total insanity and I don't think the current show would even attempt it.
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Jan 11, 2019 03:05
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Atlas Hugged posted:The best part about Bart the Genius is the animation in that math train sequence. It's just total insanity and I don't think the current show would even attempt it. True. Still, almost every animated show does some experimental stuff in its first season or two that never shows up again. Cartman doing the "I love to singa" dance (or Stan getting that great big goofy smile when Wendy kisses him or whatever). i can think of other examples too. I'm not sure what my point is here
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Jan 11, 2019 04:25
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South Park still does experimental stuff at times. Such as anime ninjas and World of Warcraft.
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Jan 11, 2019 04:38
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Last Chance posted:seasons 1 and 2 are really good you fuckin doofus Remember that 130th episode special that was hosted by Troy McClure? The one where he shows a clip of the very first episode, and then after it cuts back to him with a horrified look on his face and then he plays it off as "and they haven't changed a bit". Even they were making fun of how the show started off.  Speaking of Troy, was he even IN the first 2 seasons? emgeejay posted:This YouTube playlist is really the best illustration of the show’s overall trajectory. You know, I was wondering why there were so many couch gags from the first 10 seasons that I wasn't aware of, even though I'm sure I've seen every single one of those episodes multiple times, and then it hit me. For some weird reason, Fox did this thing where subsequent airings of the show used the same couch gag for multiple episodes (if I remember correctly, it was the one with duplicates of the Simpsons already being on the couch when they got there). I legit don't understand why they did this because it meant someone had to go through several of these episodes, remove the original couch gag, and replace it with the one i mentioned. So utterly bizarre.
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Jan 11, 2019 04:48
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punk rebel ecks posted:South Park still does experimental stuff at times. Such as anime ninjas and World of Warcraft. anime ninjas was 14 years ago and World of Warcraft was 12 years ago
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Jan 11, 2019 04:50
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Mr Interweb posted:Remember that 130th episode special that was hosted by Troy McClure? The one where he shows a clip of the very first episode, and then after it cuts back to him with a horrified look on his face and then he plays it off as "and they haven't changed a bit". Even they were making fun of how the show started off. Couch gags count towards the running time of the show. Later on fox increased the number of ads they run, lowering the amount of time per show slightly. It's likely they replaced the couch gags to fit into this time, or for similar reasons.
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Jan 11, 2019 05:01
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Mr Interweb posted:
Possibly they subbed in shorter ones to squeeze in more commercial time? e; f, b I've been listening to talking Simpsons, and it's interesting when they point out that when you can tell plots were thin because they used extended openings, long segments of TV watching, etc. The show's made me appreciate seasons 5-6 and especially 7-8 more than 3-4. brugroffil fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 05:02
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brugroffil posted:Possibly they subbed in shorter ones to squeeze in more commercial time? Like how specific jokes get cut from the syndication run to fit more ads
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Jan 11, 2019 05:04
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Extra commercial times WOULD make sense, but many of the ones they removed (not all, but many) were about the same length as the one they replaced it with, which is why it's weird.
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Jan 11, 2019 05:06
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Improbable Lobster posted:Like how specific jokes get cut from the syndication run to fit more ads Since I watched the show so many times in syndication, those were the versions I always remembered. When I got seasons 1-10 back in 2010 or so, it was like getting all sorts of deleted scenes and jokes!
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Jan 11, 2019 05:07
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Anytime they used an extended couch gag means they were actively trying to eat run time because they made the episode too short or ran out of steam.
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Jan 11, 2019 05:08
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Oddly enough I feel like I've seen the extended gag with the cancan dancers and circus elephants more than any of the others. Or maybe it's just the one I remember most because it kind of stands out more than any of the other golden age couch gags. Edit: Now that I think about it most of my Simpsons watching happened on one of the Canadian channels that syndicated it, rather than an American station. Probably Global? That might have something to do with it. Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 06:29
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Watching the opening for season 1 is weird because it's got more gags in it that didn't carry over to future seasons (Bart stealing the bus stop sign for instance).
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Jan 11, 2019 06:32
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Mak0rz posted:Oddly enough I feel like I've seen the extended gag with the cancan dancers and circus elephants more than any of the others. That was the only long one they had for a long time, so when they needed to kill time with a couch gag, it was the only option.
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Jan 11, 2019 06:33
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