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Moto42 posted:Congrats Sterster. I'm not going to critique the site's look since,according to my wife, I have absolutely no aesthetic sense whatsoever, but in the resume section, why do you give yourself so few points for your skills? The resume is the last place in the universe to be modest. Don't lie, sure, but modest? gently caress that poo poo, all is 15 out of 10.
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Jan 13, 2019 03:52
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I don't know if I'd even bother assigning points to skills. A candidate's idea of what a 3/5 means is never aligned with what the interviewer's idea of 3/5. I had a boss who'd ask things like "on a scale of 1-10 how are you on C++" and it was deliberately a trap because in his mind the only way you could rate a 10 was if you were Bjarne Stroustrup himself.
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Jan 13, 2019 04:52
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kitten smoothie posted:I don't know if I'd even bother assigning points to skills. A candidate's idea of what a 3/5 means is never aligned with what the interviewer's idea of 3/5. LMAO that's cuntish. Also a good way to ignore some decent candidates.
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Jan 13, 2019 04:55
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It's actually a useful question. The people who really know C++ will never rate themselves above 5-6, so it's a good way to identify people who aren't all that experienced.
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Jan 13, 2019 04:59
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didn't bjarne strousoup say that he wouldn't rate himself a 10/10 on c++?
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Jan 13, 2019 05:11
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I don't think trying to rank or rate skills is ever a good idea. Underrating might get your resume tossed, overrating is just asking to look like an idiot in the interview, best case scenario is the same as not ranking. My general rule is two categories: things I'm confident talking about in an interview which go in the skills section, and things I just namedrop under work experience
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Jan 13, 2019 05:14
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ultrafilter posted:It's actually a useful question. The people who really know C++ will never rate themselves above 5-6, so it's a good way to identify people who aren't all that experienced. The problem being that if you are being interviewed by someone who's not a great C++ programmer they might not look at it that way. I'd probably rate myself as 6, but by the 'very experienced lifelong C++ programmer is 6' metric I'm maybe a 4. But I don't see myself getting hired if I rate myself a 4 out of 10 in a key skill.
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Jan 13, 2019 05:30
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My pet theory on interviews is that they are in-group selectors, so the only way to ensure you do well is be in the interviewer's in-group or be someone they want in their in-group. It is why people in the field have endless interviews and outsiders get dumpstered immediately, why white board interviews and "how many golf balls fit in a plane" questions exist, why people of color and women have so much trouble getting in to tech, and what people mean when they say "culture fit" or "would I have a beer with this guy?", among almost everything else. Its also why interview outcomes feel so random. Its also why "what do you put on a resume" or "how should you answer this interview question" always generates so many different answers. All of the right answers end up being when your worldview is similar to the interviewer, so you answer in a way that they like. It is also why this thread can be useful, because many of you are in-group, so you can give context clues to arbitrary questions like "how would you rate yourself at C++ on a scale of 1-10?" Like some dude I've never heard of doesn't think he's a 10, and that is meaningful because he probably wrote the language. (I used C++ once.) Edit: little bit of formatting. MickeyFinn fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Jan 13, 2019 |
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Jan 13, 2019 08:56
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MickeyFinn posted:My pet theory on interviews is that they are in-group selectors, so the only way to ensure you do well is be in the interviewer's in-group or be someone they want in their in-group.
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Jan 13, 2019 09:53
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Love Stole the Day posted:This is consistent with my experience Your story is what got me thinking about this in the first place and then this post from the getting in to data science in your 30s thread sparked an A-ha! moment: Pryor on Fire posted:It took me way longer to figure this out than it should have: if you're a white dude and have a white dude name on your resume nobody really cares about certs. For everyone else, they can be immensely valuable.
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Jan 13, 2019 10:27
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MickeyFinn posted:Your story is what got me thinking about this in the first place and then this post from the getting in to data science in your 30s thread sparked an A-ha! moment: What thread is this? I'm 34 and just started on my 5 year journey studying software engineering.
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Jan 13, 2019 11:46
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-Anders posted:What thread is this? I'm 34 and just started on my 5 year journey studying software engineering. It isn't nearly as long as this thread, here you go. Its in BFC for those who don't click SA links for fear of goatse.
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Jan 13, 2019 13:22
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Regarding in-group selector theory: Almost everyone who has ever gotten through our tech screen, which is a supremely simple codepen test, and then made it to an in-person interview I've been a part of can do the job just fine. Not all of them, but a solid 90% at least. Some are better than others, of course, but the 4/10 guy and the 8/10 guy can both do the job. But of those 90% that can do the job, very few of them are people I would actually want to talk to about a problem I'm having. Specifically, about a problem. Not this "Would I want to have a beer with this person?" thing. But when I have a problem, I'm stuck, and I go talk to another engineer about it, I've already been frustrated for 20 minutes before getting to their desk. I know nobody here wants to think they're part of the problem(and I'm not saying you are, but bear with me), but the amount of people who patronize and talk down to other people like they're morons is absolutely staggering and they have no idea that they're being a dick. That's my biggest deciding factor. Shoutouts to the guy who said "Whoever wrote this is loving retarded." in an actual for-real interview. Regarding being a White dude with white dude name(mine is French, but close enough), it obviously depends on the office but there's a fun anecdote with that. I'm one of two white guys in my office. Our head of engineering is an Indian woman, and she asked a very white male candidate to explain a concept to her because she had not seen the tech he was using. As he's explaining to her, all the Indian people in the room are shaking their heads no at him, and he's getting visibly distressed at being silently called out. Where in the states we nod to indicate we follow what you're saying, in India they shake their heads the way we say "no" to indicate they understand and are following. I don't think it's a coincidence that both me and the other white guy had worked with Indians before our time in tech, and the other people in our office are Asian/Middle Eastern. Even after I pointed it out to him, it was still enough to totally throw him off his game and he made a pretty bad impression afterward. Completely not his fault, but that's the same cultural barrier other people face when they walk into a white dominated room. Things that you would not expect can completely ruin their comfort and make them perform poorly, and it is probably not intentional. Probably. That's actually happened more than once, but once it's explained most people just laugh it off.
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Jan 13, 2019 14:11
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MickeyFinn posted:I gave you a glib response earlier, so I'll give you a better one, I hope: Thanks for this, it's useful stuff to think about. It's strange that I've done 4 month stints in all sorts of cities and never felt particularly homesick, but now find myself feeling fairly homesick for someplace foreign I only spent 4 months.
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Jan 13, 2019 14:37
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kitten smoothie posted:I don't know if I'd even bother assigning points to skills. A candidate's idea of what a 3/5 means is never aligned with what the interviewer's idea of 3/5. I've had positive reaction to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition I use it as a way to self-assess and choose where I want to improve, but it can work well for resumes if you would like a means to delineate skills.
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Jan 13, 2019 15:10
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Vincent Valentine posted:lots of good I think the fatal flaw in my theory is that, true or not, I can't figure out a way to make it useful to people who want jobs because the definition of the in-group is context dependent and fluid. When discussing science and technology as a whole in the USA, the in-group can be fairly described as white men, but each company might not fit that description at all, like your anecdote demonstrates. Assuming its true, how does this theory help you find a job? Advice to be like your interviewer doesn't help in specific because generally you don't know who your interviewer will be. What do you do? LinkedIn/Facebook/real life stalk the company and employees? Hard pass. You can also get abhorrent ideas from it, like people should change their names to be white. Double hard pass. So I'm left with truisms like "have the right skills," "network," "enroll in a bootcamp," "contribute code to a public project" and that sort of stuff. Yuck. I also end up with the idea that most hiring practices are awful because they are selecting for in-group versus adequately skilled candidates because in-group selection is a heuristic for job ability with high enough precision, recall be damned, and its cheaper. Cracking the Coding Interview expressly makes this point. That is consistent with things like opportunistic upskilling and similar horror stories about 5 years of experience for entry level positions. My last observation is about the grousing about recruiters reposting positions so much that you can search Indeed or whatever and find what looks like lots of jobs but there are lots of duplicate postings. I think that was in this thread, might have been BFC's corporate thread. My brother once responded to some stupid article in The Mercury News about how there were so many jobs going unfilled in Silicon Valley and its a total disaster, the US must invest in tech training and so on. The dude who wrote the article basically looked at the number of job postings in the Bay Area and said "going up over time is bad." My brother responded that lots of these jobs are going unfilled for a really long time so they probably are opportunistic and not really a need. To which the author responds that some guy won an economics prize decades ago for showing the strong correlation between job postings and hirings (or something useful)... in newspapers. My brother points out that newspapers charge you to post an opening and self advertising companies like Google don't have this constraint, along with data showing that some sizable fraction of Google job postings are reposted every 365 days (maybe even on the same day, I don't remember). The author did not want to hear it. This is just one more layer of dumb poo poo in hiring: the jobs you are applying for might not even be real!
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Jan 13, 2019 17:03
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MickeyFinn posted:I think the fatal flaw in my theory is that, true or not, I can't figure out a way to make it useful to people who want jobs because the definition of the in-group is context dependent and fluid. When discussing science and technology as a whole in the USA, the in-group can be fairly described as white men, but each company might not fit that description at all, like your anecdote demonstrates. Assuming its true, how does this theory help you find a job? Advice to be like your interviewer doesn't help in specific because generally you don't know who your interviewer will be. What do you do? LinkedIn/Facebook/real life stalk the company and employees? Hard pass. You can also get abhorrent ideas from it, like people should change their names to be white. Double hard pass. read snackr news, care about the poo poo they care about in snackr news ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ keep poasting on SA, care about the kinda poo poo they care about in the 'pos yachting is alienating but acceptable. hardcore religion is alienating and not that acceptable. social dance is really popular in the valley due to this one prof at stanford and this other prof at berkeley, iirc  do things on top dont do things on bottom, if in doubt go nerdier. adjust hard for youth and urbanism, so golfing is actually quite poo poo and hunting is really poo poo seems simple enough the ingroup w/ most specificity to computer touching is asian peeps. both south and east asian peeps (but not as much west or north asian). white peeps dominate by a large margin most make-or-design-a-dealio industries in america except tech, where they basically share w/ asian peeps like 60/40 (asian dudes is 2.4% of genpop). so white peeps as an ethnic group are actually underrepresented wrt genpop in tech. mostly dudes in either case. i'm sure there's an equivalent chart out there w/ ethnicity in it bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jan 13, 2019 |
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Jan 13, 2019 17:12
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What did you just vomit into this thread? Go away this has nothing to do with jobs and interviews.
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Jan 14, 2019 00:12
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ultrafilter posted:It's actually a useful question. The people who really know C++ will never rate themselves above 5-6, so it's a good way to identify people who aren't all that experienced. This also depends on your reading of the interviewer. My boss tends to overrrate his own ability, and very much doesn't understand the concept that humility makes you a better developer, so when I was on my trial hoping to get some actual dev work I answered that question with a 9/10 and it worked. I'm maybe a 3 or a 4 in reality. Depending on which subset of the language. So really, that question is more a question of whether or not you are able to determine what kind of answer they're looking for.
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Jan 14, 2019 01:48
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Yeah I'm on an interview panel for a C++ job right now, and my boss is exactly like that - he'd never hire anyone who doesn't 'sound confident' hard enough.
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Jan 14, 2019 04:19
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Jan 14, 2019 10:02
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It's a replacemenf for myself  At least partially.
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Jan 14, 2019 10:07
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ModeSix posted:What did you just vomit into this thread? Go away this has nothing to do with jobs and interviews. "dont bring up your insane love for Jesus in tech interviews or the deer you shot but you can prolly bring up video games or social dance"
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Jan 14, 2019 16:15
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Good news, call back from talent recruiter at carvana. Paraphrasing "all of the 4 people you met with loved you in the interview, and think your a good fit. but the 1 person who couldn't make it still wants to talk with you, so can you come back in to talk with her and another person?" *shakes fist*
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Jan 14, 2019 19:58
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sterster posted:Good news, call back from talent recruiter at carvana. Paraphrasing "all of the 4 people you met with loved you in the interview, and think your a good fit. but the 1 person who couldn't make it still wants to talk with you, so can you come back in to talk with her and another person?" *Insert note in job search spreadsheet* "Team members do not trust each others' judgement. Also, do not value other people's time"
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Jan 14, 2019 21:46
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Moto42 posted:Congrats Sterster. The links to your projects on the resume page don't work and the header looks weird on Chrome  And I agree with everyone else: don't rank your skills. I would make bullet points under each project; the words are kinda bunched up and bullet points might give them breathing room.
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Jan 14, 2019 22:42
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sterster posted:Good news, call back from talent recruiter at carvana. Paraphrasing "all of the 4 people you met with loved you in the interview, and think your a good fit. but the 1 person who couldn't make it still wants to talk with you, so can you come back in to talk with her and another person?" No.
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Jan 14, 2019 23:30
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asur posted:No. This is sort of what I was thinking, you can say something like: "Well, I am super hyped about carvana but I think we have seen each other enough now to get a clear picture. Setting up another meeting would delay things to much for my liking" But my main reason would be that I don't like to be pushed around like that and I rather work at a place that understands this.
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Jan 14, 2019 23:48
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Keetron posted:This is sort of what I was thinking, you can say something like: "Well, I am super hyped about carvana but I think we have seen each other enough now to get a clear picture. Setting up another meeting would delay things to much for my liking" But my main reason would be that I don't like to be pushed around like that and I rather work at a place that understands this. That's generally my feeling these days as well - but I wouldn't necessarily advise taking quite that hard a stance for a first job, especially if you've been at it a while. I'd still make a note, in case you get multiple offers, that this place was being disrespectful of your time.
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Jan 15, 2019 00:15
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I would say no ("Sorry, I don't have the availability for that.") as well unless the person I didn't meet would be my direct manager. Part of me thinks that well, if it's your first job, you gotta do what you gotta do. But I also think that agreeing to let a company disrespect your time now may condition you to agree to let companies disrespect your time later on.
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Jan 15, 2019 00:56
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Oh sorry, it is his first dev job? Suck it up, bow and kiss those shoes. In 6 months you will be able to  the gently caress out of there anyway.
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Jan 15, 2019 01:10
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Y'all, hold up. When I was hunting for my first gig if someone had called me up for a second interview I would have been over the drat moon, regardless of reason. What were your early experiences like?
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Jan 15, 2019 01:27
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For my first job, I heard about a place that was hiring through a friend, had one interview with the founder, and got an offer the next day. For my second job, I had to wade through more of the typical corporate nonsense. I would have wasted a lot less time if I knew then what I know now about how companies behave if you let them, and how/when it's appropriate to push back on it.
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Jan 15, 2019 01:59
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If one candidate goes through a different hiring process and meets fewer people and the rejected candidates hear about it, that can be a problem - this place might be doing legal CYA. Or they might just not have their poo poo together and rigid adherence to process is the only way the wheels turn. For a first job, suck it up unless you have other offers in hand for places you like better - in which case you'd be rejecting them anyways, right?
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Jan 15, 2019 02:23
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Along those lines, how long should you stay at your first job? Originally I was aiming to stay at least 2 years, but lately I've been really considering looking for a new opportunity some time in the summer, since my partner and I are talking of moving in together and I want to be closer to her in the city. I'm already at 1 year and a couple of months at this place. Would it be a huge blow to future hiring if I'm there less than 2 years?
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Jan 15, 2019 02:34
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Leaving one job after less than two years is fine. Some people will look negatively on you if you do that a few times in a row, but that's certainly not universal.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:44
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The Dark Wind posted:Along those lines, how long should you stay at your first job? Originally I was aiming to stay at least 2 years, but lately I've been really considering looking for a new opportunity some time in the summer, since my partner and I are talking of moving in together and I want to be closer to her in the city. I'm already at 1 year and a couple of months at this place. Would it be a huge blow to future hiring if I'm there less than 2 years? I stayed at my first job for a little over a year and no one said anything when I was applying to jobs, so I think you're probably fine.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:44
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I ask people for more details when it's either less than a year, or 3 or more places in less than 5 years.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:50
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Helicity posted:If one candidate goes through a different hiring process and meets fewer people and the rejected candidates hear about it, that can be a problem - this place might be doing legal CYA. Or they might just not have their poo poo together and rigid adherence to process is the only way the wheels turn. This is good advice and is how I would handle it. However you should use their scheduling snafu to ask some questions regarding their interview process, it will give you some insight as to how they treat prospects and employees. You probably can't ask too many questions.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:54
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i just took some online assessment from amazon and ran out of time doing the 2nd coding question. was pretty close but i probably made a mistake somewhere in there that made the test cases fail. it was followed by some sort of personality quiz afterwards. i asked for a manual review of my answer to q2 but i don't know what'll come out of that, i was pretty confident i was close. hopefully can still make it through to the onsite but ugh. did a whole bunch of leetcode but these seemed to be "new" questions, thankfully they followed the same type of pattern that leetcode/hackerrank had though.
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