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But making people pay more for beef is regressive, you see.
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Jan 23, 2019 00:27
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Insanite posted:But making people pay more for beef is regressive, you see. I see the parallel between the yellow vests who were justifiably mad, and while taxing beef should not be the first thing we do to fight climate change it's not exactly analgous that beef consumption is essential to functioning in modern society as fuel consumption is, and there wasn't a decades long push by the government for the working class to save money by buying beef instead of lentils.
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Jan 23, 2019 00:32
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Zophar posted:People will absolutely drop beef if the price of its emissions footprint was passed on to them. I cut it pretty much entirely out of my diet due to both health and environment concerns and I balk at the idea of adding what I used to spend on red meat back into my budget. People might love meat but especially in the US people buy groceries based on what their wallets allow, and meat happens to meet a lot of nutritional demands for cheap. People rarely go out for Big Macs because they love it. A pound of cooked black beans, organic no-less, runs about $1. So beef is already pricy in comparison.
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Jan 23, 2019 00:35
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I've always assumed that a huge amount of pricing in meat's externalities wouldn't come from consumption taxes, but presumably from ending ag subsidies that I'm way too ignorant to name (and maybe I'm wrong about that!) Of course any fight to end subsidies would be spun as a tax, but maybe people will be able to see through it.
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Jan 23, 2019 00:39
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Insanite posted:But making people pay more for beef is regressive, you see. Product Substitution is real and strong and it is our friend. Chicken and potato-pea veggie patties are excellent. For example, Trader Joe's sells these Masala veggie patties that're way better than your average fast food burger. I want McDonalds and Taco bell to start migrating their Indian menus over here.
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Jan 23, 2019 00:43
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Zophar posted:I see the parallel between the yellow vests who were justifiably mad, and while taxing beef should not be the first thing we do to fight climate change it's not exactly analgous that beef consumption is essential to functioning in modern society as fuel consumption is, and there wasn't a decades long push by the government for the working class to save money by buying beef instead of lentils. I think the larger point is true, that any system of internalizing emissions cost will fail when undertaken without the broad government response of social support required. Ban beef or price it sky high, whichever is done you’ll still need the government intervention for not just farmers and slaughterhouse workers, but in cooking shows, food festivals, etc to change the culture on pace with the speed of economic changes required.
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Jan 23, 2019 00:46
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I don't think there needs to be a giant re-education campaign to let people know that meats other than beef exist. *Maybe* you'd have a point if we were talking about all meats, but any tax that tries to price in carbon to meat prices is going to affect beef way more than any other meat. And one thing where individual action *is* effective is that it paves the way for mass adoption of greener practices. It's not hard to find vegetarian recipes if you seek them out.
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Jan 23, 2019 01:03
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enki42 posted:I don't think there needs to be a giant re-education campaign to let people know that meats other than beef exist. Yes, we will have to more to change diets than just reduce beef consumption. Trying to just tax your way to a solution without any efforts at social support just makes people resent you. See: soda taxes and other sin taxes. Like we’re going to have probably end bbq. And meanwhile, good luck affording ocean caught fish (even farmed) as the oceans won’t recover for centuries. There’s an enormous need for the government to step in and support all these simultaneous transitions. We need to support social alternatives to all these things we have to shed. Like the alternative is we still have to change our diets but a little later and without any social support. The diet shift will be forced. But shifting early is a 1 to 2 extra scoops of worms kinda deal (i.e. a huge deal).
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Jan 23, 2019 01:10
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I wonder how much it would help if like The Food Network just did all vegetarian dishes and removed all of its meat based recipes off their website. Like no more meat in any tv show. I'm not saying it would happen but I wonder if it would change anything.
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Jan 23, 2019 01:17
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silicone thrills posted:I wonder how much it would help if like The Food Network just did all vegetarian dishes and removed all of its meat based recipes off their website. Like no more meat in any tv show. I'm not saying it would happen but I wonder if it would change anything. It wouldn't, I'm sorry.
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Jan 23, 2019 01:43
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enki42 posted:I don't think there needs to be a giant re-education campaign to let people know that meats other than beef exist. I guess:  If you had them running around eating bugs. Not a fan myself.
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Jan 23, 2019 02:09
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VideoGameVet posted:I guess: Could someone just make an all-chicken fast food place that doesn't hate gays? It'd be a start.
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Jan 23, 2019 02:20
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Was just reading about how the record heat in Australia is actually melting roads. All time records with one town having a record overnight temperature of 39.5 C.
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Jan 23, 2019 02:26
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davebo posted:Could someone just make an all-chicken fast food place that doesn't hate gays? It'd be a start. It's sad because they have a rep for treating their employees better than most fast food places. I haven't had chicken in over a decade, so no clue as to where to go.
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Jan 23, 2019 02:43
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Go to your local grocery store. If they have a deli counter with hot foods they have chicken.
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Jan 23, 2019 03:47
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VideoGameVet posted:It's sad because they have a rep for treating their employees better than most fast food places. Popeye's?
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Jan 23, 2019 03:51
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silicone thrills posted:I wonder how much it would help if like The Food Network just did all vegetarian dishes and removed all of its meat based recipes off their website. Like no more meat in any tv show. I'm not saying it would happen but I wonder if it would change anything. TV is for boomers.
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Jan 23, 2019 04:03
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VideoGameVet posted:It's sad because they have a rep for treating their employees better than most fast food places. bojangles
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Jan 23, 2019 04:17
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Personally, I was inspired by all the Rime apologists to triple my beef consumption. Nihilism sure is freeing, and cows sure are tasty!
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Jan 23, 2019 05:06
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Personally, I was inspired by all the Rime apologists to triple my beef consumption. Nihilism sure is freeing, and cows sure are tasty! the take away from rime's posting is that low key stuff is not helping and if you think you're doing your part then, well, you need to step it up how gently caress if we know but it needs to be more then that, get political etc
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Jan 23, 2019 05:25
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I'm sure not loving it, but for lack of a better answer I'm getting involved in my city's Extinction Rebellion debut action this weekend. I can't say that it feels sufficient, but elections and consumption habits alone clearly aren't either.
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Jan 23, 2019 07:03
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Rip Testes posted:Was just reading about how the record heat in Australia is actually melting roads. All time records with one town having a record overnight temperature of 39.5 C. I was working in Northwestern Western Australia a few years ago during a very very hot summer (hit something like 45C) and the bitumen would slowly start accumulating on our boots because it was melting and sticking to us.
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Jan 23, 2019 08:20
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Doom! Doom and Gloom! We're all going to di- Wait, what's this? A possible flicker of Hope?
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Jan 23, 2019 09:21
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Gamerofthegame posted:the take away from rime's posting is that low key stuff is not helping and if you think you're doing your part then, well, you need to step it up That's exactly what he's going for but goons are really bad at reading comprehension.
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Jan 23, 2019 10:09
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Gotta say, I read the last five or so pages and while the information is good and gave me another needed reality check, a lot of you people are using this thread as a convenient hugbox to justify every possible excuse to not do something about your lifestyles (changing the way you eat and live, for example) and/or crippling depression. Instead of going outside and building the positive human connections that could help mitigate the effects of the disaster we're faced with, many of you seem content to shutter yourselves from the world while shouting down anyone who offers either solutions for community-building or even information contrary to the stuff that some of the doom prophets quoted here are saying. I remember the Peak Oil threads from old LF and drat if I don't get a strong deja vu here.
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Jan 23, 2019 10:10
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I’d agree with that statement - it takes a lot of worrying about one’s own personal future and personal issues off the table when one gets preoccupied about these matters. No reason for self-improvement when we’re all doomed, after all. But that energy is very negative and not interesting.
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Jan 23, 2019 13:13
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Any thoughts on this, fellow housebound depressives? https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2019/01/23/fighting-climate-change-with-a-green-tva/
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Jan 23, 2019 14:12
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Ssthalar posted:Doom! Doom and Gloom! Not really. This is one of a million of similar solutions. None of this stuff is worth even paying attention to until it's demonstrated at scale and has sufficient funding to be built out at a level great enough to make an impact. Climate change is a purely political and economic problem. We've had the technology to solve it for more than half a century, so new technologies just aren't terribly interesting on their own. This is the kind of thing we actually need: Insanite posted:Any thoughts on this, fellow housebound depressives? Large-scale government action to drastically change portions of the economy while also doing everything possible to prevent people from having their lives ruined by those changes.
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Jan 23, 2019 15:58
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Paradoxish posted:Not really. Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. Oh well, back to the scheduled doom and gloom then.
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Jan 23, 2019 16:13
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Plant a few hundred trees and don't have a cow, man. e: Seriously, anyone have any favorite reforestation orgs? I know about the National Forest Foundation, but that's just domestic. An acre of forest counteracts emissions from, what, 3 cars? please say that's something i want to feel happy again Insanite fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 16:20
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Ssthalar posted:Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. I honestly wasn't trying to be a downer with that post, it's just that a lot of people really want to treat CCS as a panacea when thus far absolutely no one has demonstrated it as an economic solution at scale. We can go ahead and replace our entire grid with nuclear energy and renewables literally any time we want to, but we haven't because of politics and economics. Technology just existing isn't good enough.
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Jan 23, 2019 16:28
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barbecue at the folks posted:a lot of you people are using this thread as a convenient hugbox to justify every possible excuse to not do something about your lifestyles (changing the way you eat and live, for example) and/or crippling depression. Instead of going outside and building the positive human connections that could help mitigate the effects of the disaster we're faced with, many of you seem content to shutter yourselves from the world while shouting down anyone who offers either solutions for community-building or even information contrary to the stuff that some of the doom prophets quoted here are saying. first off, you're full of poo poo. "many" are not doing that. you're doing the thing trump does where he just makes up a "many are saying" to justify some overly broad and mostly false generalization. you should try lurking more, or just better reading comprehension, or engaging with actual people rather than your hive-mind caricature you made up while skimming. what you've just done is the standard mental defense mechanism when you receive bad news and try to hedge or average it out by associating it with an invented (or fingerpointed) other/out-group and anointing yourself the rational and reasonable one in the middle. secondly, peak oil and climate change are basically the same thing. one is the supply side of the problem, the other is the demand side of the problem. they are both about our unsustainable relationship with geological carbon, its really just a question of which fucks us up worse sooner. in fact, if we're truly in the peak-plateau now, that would be *fantastic* news as it would provide a forcing function for the energy transition that our politics can't seem to. i'll take hopeless quitters over smarmy tone police, at least the former are talking about reality not their perceived conversational meta factors. StabbinHobo fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 16:44
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StabbinHobo posted:first off, you're full of poo poo. "many" are not doing that. you're doing the thing trump does where he just makes up a "many are saying" to justify some overly broad and mostly false generalization. you should try lurking more, or just better reading comprehension, or engaging with actual people rather than your hive-mind caricature you made up while skimming. what you've just done is the standard mental defense mechanism when you receive bad news and try to hedge or average it out by associating it with an invented (or fingerpointed) other/out-group and anointing yourself the rational and reasonable one in the middle. We don't know what everyone on the other side of the computer screen are doing with their lives so that is kind of a gross mischaracterization that isn't exactly fair. I know that Rime was putting in the work and while his way of coming across irked me at times, he did have good info on the scope of what we are facing. From my personal point of view and ethos, hopelessness is a paralytic. Anger is a much more useful motivator. Instead of feeling hopeless, I chose anger instead. Anger is the only thing that can fuel the changes we need to be done to avoid a 3C future and even that might be a moonshot, but moonshots have happened before. It is going to be painful. There will be suffering. We are already locked into a 1.5C future. The fight right now is choosing how bad things are going to get. Technology is not going to save us. It can be a small part of the solution, but it is not what needs to be done. What needs to be done is a cultural shift of massive proportions and a reckoning to be delivered upon the polluters of the planet should they remain intractable. The reckoning starts by getting political. It starts by paying attention to every city and county ordinance and watching your government officials like a hawk. If they step out of line then they lose their loving jobs. Local elections are INCREDIBLY vulnerable to grassroots campaigns because the money machinery to support the status quo is simply not there. Once you change the local systems, it ripples to the next level, and then the next level above that. The Status Quo is very vulnerable from the bottom because it relies on people not showing up and being distracted by the big show at the top. Paradoxish posted:I honestly wasn't trying to be a downer with that post, it's just that a lot of people really want to treat CCS as a panacea when thus far absolutely no one has demonstrated it as an economic solution at scale. We can go ahead and replace our entire grid with nuclear energy and renewables literally any time we want to, but we haven't because of politics and economics. Technology just existing isn't good enough. Yeah, I didn't get that vibe from your post. The Green TVA is the kind of institutional changes we need and while CCS can be a supplemental part of mitigating a 3C world. It is not a cure-all solution. We do not get to have our cake and eat it too. The time for that is long past. https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2019/01/23/fighting-climate-change-with-a-green-tva/
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Jan 23, 2019 17:04
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Paradoxish posted:I honestly wasn't trying to be a downer with that post, it's just that a lot of people really want to treat CCS as a panacea when thus far absolutely no one has demonstrated it as an economic solution at scale. We can go ahead and replace our entire grid with nuclear energy and renewables literally any time we want to, but we haven't because of politics and economics. Technology just existing isn't good enough. The solution being offered above seems to be more relevant as an attachment to fossil fuel burning plants, which really doesn't help us to get to negative carbon.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:05
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friendbot2000 posted:The reckoning starts by getting political. It starts by paying attention to every city and county ordinance and watching your government officials like a hawk. If they step out of line then they lose their loving jobs. Local elections are INCREDIBLY vulnerable to grassroots campaigns because the money machinery to support the status quo is simply not there. Once you change the local systems, it ripples to the next level, and then the next level above that. The Status Quo is very vulnerable from the bottom because it relies on people not showing up and being distracted by the big show at the top. This right here. In my city of 100K, local elections usually have about 3000 voters. It only takes a few hundred votes swinging in a certain way to change the way things operate.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:07
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Kunabomber posted:This right here. In my city of 100K, local elections usually have about 3000 voters. It only takes a few hundred votes swinging in a certain way to change the way things operate. poo poo in the VA 2017 elections a delegate seat that would have decided the gavel in the House of Delegates was decided by drawing lots out a loving fishbowl. Everything is political. Get organized. Get Angry.
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Jan 23, 2019 18:05
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Insanite posted:please say that's something i want to feel happy again Did you know that you can enjoy some super green fun with minimum emissions of anything bad while planting flowers in a local garden? Remember to water them regularly and in no time they'll bloom and tons of small animals around them and they will live a long and happy life thanks to you alone! If you're lucky, you might even be able to smoke some of the plants after a while to increase your happiness intake. 
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Jan 23, 2019 18:06
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The Dipshit posted:Nah, while Rime posted articles he took the most doomsday spin on them, and quite frankly I see no value in his editorializing over the actual article itself. It's about the same as his contribution to the Canadian debt bubble thread, where he should've been perma'ed with the endless racism years ago. That explains his hatred of Borlaug's agricultural innovations; they mostly benefitted brown people.
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Jan 23, 2019 18:40
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Goons Are Great posted:Did you know that you can enjoy some super green fun with minimum emissions of anything bad while planting flowers in a local garden? There is a growing trend of people growing Climate Gardens in the vein of Victory Gardens in WW2. I wholeheartedly support any effort to garden. In our community garden plot by a local watershed, we make sure to have several plots reserved for native wildflowers and plants and we have a strict no pesticide policy. Instead, we play yarrow and herbs around plants to keep nematodes away from the produce. Companion Planting is super cool and fun to learn about. We are trying to get the city to build bat boxes instead of using pesticides, we are making some progress with some council members because of the research we have done regarding cost-benefit models. Also, we have a group that goes out in the Spring and summer to hunt down kudzu and kill it so it doesn't poison the local watershed's ecosystem by killing all the other plants and trees. It is a never-ending war but we have made progress by planting blackberry bushes once we purge the kudzu. Virginia wild berry bushes are just as nasty as Kudzu except they are native to the area so are a useful deterrent and erosion control. Plus they feed and house local critters! Hello Sailor posted:That explains his hatred of Borlaug's agricultural innovations; they mostly benefitted brown people. Yikes...I did not realize this.
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Jan 23, 2019 19:18
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Kunabomber posted:The solution being offered above seems to be more relevant as an attachment to fossil fuel burning plants, which really doesn't help us to get to negative carbon. Yeah this is one of the two big dividing questions when we're talking CCS: point source capture or atmospheric? I am very wary of point source capture technologies because that's just a way to not only keep burning fossil fuels but often to burn even more of them. Some CCS schemes require burning 2x or more coal for the same amount of power due to parasitic loads. That's not how we decarbonize the economy. The other big dividing question is if we're capturing atmospheric are we mitigating present emissions or past? I'm very skeptical that schemes for carbon neutrality using economic instruments will be implemented in a way that doesn't leave large loopholes that render them useless. There are a billion ways that someone can make a number in a spreadsheet lower than it should be, so instead we should implement policies that don't rely on exchange schemes that are weak to manipulation and instead should directly regulate the emissions and emitting technologies. Of course there are some minor uses for these technologies but by focusing any of our generalized time or energy on point source capture or mitigating present emissions using CCS is not just a waste but risks being using to prolong our fossil fuel dependance. And even if we develop better CCS technology that only means that future generations will have to use fewer resources on mitigating our harms as they still deal with climate disaster. Decarbonizing the economy is what matters.
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Jan 23, 2019 19:48
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