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Gervasius posted:Okay, to put insane ramblings of Maduro-loving rightwingers aside for a bit, assuming Maduro pulls a Yanukovich and flees to Russia with insane amount of money, would he just be replaced by some other PSUV crony or is there a way for genuine change in Venezuela with him gone? The actual best not impossible outcome is the PSUV discovering some level of sanity and deciding that for their own long term well being they need to boot, uh, basically their entire leadership and become merely greedy and stupid rather than insanely greedy and indescribably stupid. I'm not optimistic. The odds of them allowing a legitimate election are essentially nil and from there we get into remedies that are themselves Very Bad. (military coup, total collapse of Venezuela as a state, US invasion, in approximately descending order)
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Jan 24, 2019 01:26
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THS posted:Don’t go to bat about fishmech, I’m not arguing about the sanctions or even defending Maduro. I’m pointing out how this is likely to occur in the context US intervention, how that usually goes, and how bad it will likely be. Well then to you specifically I'd ask: What do you consider intervention to mean? and if you mean military intervention, who here has advocated for US military intervention of Venezuela? When the US and other American states offer food aid (that is insanely rejected) is that "intervention"?
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Jan 24, 2019 01:26
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R. Guyovich posted:it's weird to use a million-person death toll as proof saddam was worse than what came after since by even conservative estimates over a million civilians were killed in the us invasion. and that's not including people who died from the resultant instability. odd argument. also: the people who died in the decade between the two wars from the actual sanctions.
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Jan 24, 2019 01:28
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Most people seem to be against America bombing Venezuela, and also against Maduro, but you somehow think the other side is "pro" in either of those categories. Why do you argue if you actually agree?
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Jan 24, 2019 01:34
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caps on caps on caps posted:Most people seem to be against America bombing Venezuela, and also against Maduro, but you somehow think the other side is "pro" in either of those categories. Why do you argue if you actually agree? how else am I going to get the smug satisfaction of knowing that I'm One of The Good Ones?
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Jan 24, 2019 01:37
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Crowsbeak posted:Maduro better take some cues from Assad in dealing with these foreign backed traitors. Mods, Crowsbeak here was actively calling for protesters to be tortured and murdered. I think this probably deserves more than a sixer.
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Jan 24, 2019 01:38
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Squalid posted:Mods, Crowsbeak here was actively calling for protesters to be tortured and murdered. I think this probably deserves more than a sixer. mod queues aren't publicly viewable 
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Jan 24, 2019 01:40
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Squalid posted:Mods, Crowsbeak here was actively calling for protesters to be tortured and murdered. I think this probably deserves more than a sixer. I suspect it was a remarkably bad taste joke. Which, you know, might still be grounds for probation.
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Jan 24, 2019 01:41
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In lighter news, good new thread title. Made me laugh anyway.
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Jan 24, 2019 01:45
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Hot take: Saying that "Things couldn't get worse with US intervention" while naive (IMO of course) is not the same as actively supporting intervention. Another hot take: It's hideous to just write off Vene-goons that fled their country as just being richers that are bitter about losing their golf courses. Yet another hot take: The leftists tumbling into this thread also think Maduro is poo poo, and would probably like him to be replaced by an actual socialist. Would it be possible for people ITT to argue in good faith and stop putting words into peoples' mouths? I'm not buying any sort of argument that the collapse of Venezuela's economy is the fault of the US, just due to a lack of any reasonable argument of how it could be the case. On the other hand, industries being expropriated and then gutted instead of managed well with an eye to the future seems to be a reasonable explanation supported by evidence. I realize the US has done a lot of bad poo poo in the past but I don't take it on faith that we should ignore the incompetence of the ruling class and chalk it up to shadowy forces because it fits a socialism vs imperialism narrative. Its naive to think that the US doesn't have some interest and isn't thinking about how to best exploit the situation, but that does not mean that they explicitly caused it. Obviously, view on this subject to change with honest evidence. ryde fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 01:50
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very upset right now with the mexican headline announcing maduro breaking ties with the EU only to read the article and realize they were talking about the EEUU
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Jan 24, 2019 01:58
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The hasthtag #WeAreMaduro is #2 trending on Twitter right now. I guess we're wrong and the people of Venezuela really *checks earpiece* What's that? https://twitter.com/LucasRHil/status/1088206429855666176 EDIT: Here's the tweet with a visualization: https://twitter.com/LucasRHil/status/1088235586484387840
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Jan 24, 2019 02:11
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Chuck Boone posted:The hasthtag #WeAreMaduro is #2 trending on Twitter right now. I guess we're wrong and the people of Venezuela really *checks earpiece* What's that? you capitalist pig lying poor hating artistocrat how dare you post such things ON THE EVE OF MADUROS LAST STAND to protect venezuela from ample food supplies
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Jan 24, 2019 02:12
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If there's one country you can trust on coups in South America, it's the good ol' usa Venezuelans Want Freedom.
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Jan 24, 2019 02:13
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What a fun thread
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Jan 24, 2019 02:30
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Chuck Boone posted:The hasthtag #WeAreMaduro is #2 trending on Twitter right now. I guess we're wrong and the people of Venezuela really *checks earpiece* What's that? lol gently caress why couldn't an actual good country utilize internet troll farms
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Jan 24, 2019 02:32
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#IAmMaduro
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Jan 24, 2019 02:33
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#NoIAmMaduro
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Jan 24, 2019 02:37
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GreyjoyBastard posted:lol gently caress Because there are none, OP 
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Jan 24, 2019 02:38
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:#NoIAmMaduro #IAmMaduroAndSoIsMyWife
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Jan 24, 2019 02:40
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#CeciNestPasUnMaduro
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Jan 24, 2019 02:43
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has china or iran released any statement yet
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Jan 24, 2019 02:43
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:#NoIAmMaduro
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Jan 24, 2019 02:45
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is this the thread where we say the Iraq War was a good idea because I want in on that
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Jan 24, 2019 02:46
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Berke Negri posted:has china or iran released any statement yet they both recognized the election results so it would be a big turnaround if one of them recognized guaido
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Jan 24, 2019 02:56
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Chuck Boone posted:The hasthtag #WeAreMaduro is #2 trending on Twitter right now. I guess we're wrong and the people of Venezuela really *checks earpiece* What's that? If anyone is thinking the Sultan here gives a poo poo about Venezuela because of his principled stand against interventionism, Erdogan doesn't. Venezuela is selling gold to Turkey at a discount so's Maduro and pals can pocket the proceeds themselves without the financial oversight they'd endure if they were trying to fence state assets in Switzerland.
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Jan 24, 2019 02:58
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Party Plane Jones posted:i'm actively reading this thread so be prepared to embrace the unyielding grasp of american imperialism as I probate everyone An apt metaphor for the US, a powerful, yet ignorant player wandering onto a stage where they don't belong and causing chaos.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:15
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So what is it that Maduro's actually done? I read back a few pages and you all just seem to have agreed that he's bad without saying why.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:17
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Venezuela: Tankies to the left of me, Fascists to the right and here I am, stuck in a centrist coup
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Jan 24, 2019 03:24
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Grapplejack posted:Venezuela: Tankies to the left of me, Fascists to the right and here I am, stuck in a centrist coup 
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Jan 24, 2019 03:27
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Dabir posted:So what is it that Maduro's actually done? I read back a few pages and you all just seem to have agreed that he's bad without saying why. A completely hosed economy beset by hyperinflation, starvation, political repression, incredible corruption and insane levels of violence and property crimes. Meanwhile, he steadfastly refuses to accept any fault for this through a patented mixture of insanity, magical thinking, and blaming nebulous imperialists. I mean, say what you will about Castro, but having spoken with Venezuelans presently, and Cubans who lived through the Special Period, the current situation in Venezuela is actually worse and Maduro is in complete denial of the problems.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:30
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PT6A posted:A completely hosed economy beset by hyperinflation, starvation, political repression, incredible corruption and insane levels of violence and property crimes. Meanwhile, he steadfastly refuses to accept any fault for this through a patented mixture of insanity, magical thinking, and blaming nebulous imperialists. yeah but what's he actually done? what's the corruption?
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Jan 24, 2019 03:31
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Dabir posted:So what is it that Maduro's actually done? I read back a few pages and you all just seem to have agreed that he's bad without saying why. Long story short: -Wrecked the economy with Weimar Germany-style hyperinflation -Looted both private and state owned businesses -Rigged elections -Stole power from the legislature when his party lost -Armed street gangs loyal to the party that have contributed to Venezuela's world-high crime rate -Sold massive parts of the country's infrastructure and oil futures to whoever will offer quick cash, which is then looted. A lot of this is on the upper party leadership dating back to Chavez instead of just Maduro, but under his leadership the country has gone from an alright democracy with some trouble areas to a nightmarish hellhole where people fight over which trash piles they can scavenge food from.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:33
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So maduro is expelling us diplomats Can the "starving people is OK" crowd ak bob le douche and Han locks tell me why maduro didnt do this years ago if the us has been running a war the whole time?
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Jan 24, 2019 03:34
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Long story short: What looting though? You're all just talking in general terms. What's he looted?
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Jan 24, 2019 03:40
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Dabir posted:yeah but what's he actually done? what's the corruption? The hyperinflation and food shortages are directly linked to absurdly unrealistic price controls that force a huge amount of basic goods to be sold at massive losses. There's no incentive for anyone to grow food or import it because they'll be losing money, and the state industries that haven't been completely (controlled by party hacks) only provide the bare minimum before selling the rest on the black market at huge profits. Maduro allows this because he and his friends get to profit while the rest of the country falls apart. And that's just one thing.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:41
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The hyperinflation and food shortages are directly linked to absurdly unrealistic price controls that force a huge amount of basic goods to be sold at massive losses. There's no incentive for anyone to grow food or import it because they'll be losing money, and the state industries that haven't been completely (controlled by party hacks) only provide the bare minimum before selling the rest on the black market at huge profits. Maduro allows this because he and his friends get to profit while the rest of the country falls apart. What profit though? Where's your evidence?
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Jan 24, 2019 03:45
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The hyperinflation and food shortages are directly linked to absurdly unrealistic price controls that force a huge amount of basic goods to be sold at massive losses. There's no incentive for anyone to grow food or import it because they'll be losing money, and the state industries that haven't been completely (controlled by party hacks) only provide the bare minimum before selling the rest on the black market at huge profits. Maduro allows this because he and his friends get to profit while the rest of the country falls apart. And it is important to remember that these policies started under Chavez.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:47
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Dabir posted:What profit though? Where's your evidence? This has to be a world record for running a gimmick into the ground in the shortest time.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:47
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Dabir posted:What profit though? Where's your evidence? Venezuela’s Maduro under investigation in $1.2 billion U.S. money-laundering case
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Jan 24, 2019 03:49
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