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I cant believe all the xmen are dead forever
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Jan 21, 2019 04:46
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ya just hate to see it happen
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Jan 21, 2019 04:50
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It breaks my heart every time they're gone and never coming back.
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Jan 21, 2019 05:24
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rip jean grey yet again
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Jan 21, 2019 05:28
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I agree with clearing the table so Scott can be like "ayyy you fuckers can't do poo poo without me"
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Jan 21, 2019 05:39
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My X-Men comic would involve Jean Grey being resurrected as a dude named Green Jay.
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Jan 21, 2019 05:54
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Android Blues posted:I didn't really like the story, but certainly I got the impression that the writers cared about the (old guard) characters. Again, the way that most of this was written feels like it intentionally wants you to like these characters less.
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Jan 21, 2019 11:25
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I'm still not a fan of Legion being back at all because the previous end of his story was so good and nothing about his return, inevitable though it was, has been good enough to justify undoing that previous end, especially without addressing it. His miniseries last year was ok but just didn't add anything other than a vague tie-in to the TV show and set the stage for this nonsense.
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Jan 21, 2019 13:38
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where's si spurrier with a shard of glass when you need him
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Jan 22, 2019 00:18
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I literally had no idea what happened at the end there until I saw what was being talked about in the thread. You know you've done a good job on a book if that happens.
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Jan 22, 2019 05:23
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twistedmentat posted:I literally had no idea what happened at the end there until I saw what was being talked about in the thread. You know you've done a good job on a book if that happens. It's literally only made clear by the solicits/previews, if you just read this book you'd be like, "well, I guess the X-Men are dead again temporarily". Not a great method of story delivery.
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Jan 22, 2019 09:15
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The Uncanny Annual was really quite good, which further cements my opinion that the problem with the weekly series is not Brisson or Thompson. The only complaint I have about the issue is when Cyclops said, in reference to his radicalism days, that "I was wrong."  Nuh uh, disagreed.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:38
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yeah ultimately it's well-devised, but I can't buy the idea that a Cyclops that's gone through what he's gone through over the course of the last few years would not be mad as hell at everything, including the X-Men as a structure inherited from Xavier's worldview
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Jan 23, 2019 23:07
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I haven't read anything with Cyclops in it now that he's returned but he should now have the memories of Young Cyclops so I want him to go meet Kamala, Miles, and Sam and reminisce about his fun time on The Champions as a kid a couple months back. If the new Marvel Team-Up with Ms Marvel as the main character doesn't have an issue with Cyclops it's a failure.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:42
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One of the few bright spots for me from Champions was Scott had a lot of chemistry with Kamala, but it never went anywhere. Like a lot of the book.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:51
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I really didn't like it. It wasn't shoddily put together or anything but a bunch of elements rubbed me the wrong way. -Death of X was not a great story, but it was by an author I respect, and it felt kind of crummy for Cable and Cyclops (acting presumably as a vehicle for the voice of editorial) to say "that sucked! It was lovely! Boo to that!" I feel like they could have pulled off this retcon without any of the spite. -As mentioned, why does dying and coming back de-radicalize Cyclops, other than a desire by the creators to hit the reset button? It feels cheap, it undoes a bunch of character development I was very fond of, and it seems in line, in a way that makes me uncomfortbale, with the centrist political drift of Uncanny so far, this urge to turn the X-Men apolitical. -This is silly but I hate how comics tend to deal with incarceration and recidivism-- Arkham always gets on my nerves-- so I was disappointed but not surprised when the villain comes out from a 13-year sentence and immediately takes off on another robo-rampage. Again, this speaks to what I'm picking up on as a much broader political shifting away from what Morrison through Fraction and Gillen through Bendis were really digging into. It's cops and robbers poo poo and I'm not that interested in the X-Men as cops (except for Bishop, I guess, who was very fun in District X way back when).
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Jan 24, 2019 16:03
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Archyduchess posted:I really didn't like it. It wasn't shoddily put together or anything but a bunch of elements rubbed me the wrong way. To be fair, the whole point of Death of X is that Cyclops' death sucked and was lovely, which is why Emma had to work so hard to give him something resembling a proper one. Completely agreed on the "Cyclops was wrong" thing. I'll accept that they probably want to take the character in a new direction, and that's bound to happen in a commercially-owned character, but the best part about "Cyclops was right" was that he loving was. He did what he needed to do to ensure that mutants survived, and it worked. He never gave up, he never turned evil (Phoenix shenanigans slightly aside), and he kept fighting until he died. I'm a Cyclops apologist generally, but post M-Day/Utopia Cyclops is the best there ever was. And there are ways you could have sent that character off in a new direction instead of throwing him into reverse.
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Jan 25, 2019 10:46
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The Phoenix isn’t evil, it just has that space god universal scale perspective where humans are insects, irrelevant, etc.
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Jan 25, 2019 14:13
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to think of the storied history of the past 30 or so years of X-Men comics, decided almost entirely on John Byrne going into business for himself for one panel.
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Jan 25, 2019 14:23
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Alaois posted:to think of the storied history of the past 30 or so years of X-Men comics, decided almost entirely on John Byrne going into business for himself for one panel. ??? I'm curious as hell about this now that you say it.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:57
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:??? I'm curious as hell about this now that you say it. when jean grey first became phoenix she flew into space and consumed a sun, which destroyed a nearby planet populated by broccoli people. that wasn't in the script, byrne just thought it'd be interesting to throw in. jim shooter demanded that jean grey be killed off as punishment for committing planetary genocide, hence the dark phoenix saga and the death of jean grey.
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Jan 25, 2019 18:03
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That's why when they brought her back, it was retconned that real Jean was in a cocoon and it was the Phoenix force (which was now a thing, and not just a dark side of Jean) in her image that did it. It has since been adjusted again that it was the Phoenix responsible, but that it was possessing her real body.
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Jan 25, 2019 18:08
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Then what was in the cocoon?
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Jan 25, 2019 22:54
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I think it never existed now.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:58
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The actual in-canon explanation is that the Phoenix, aka Jean, constantly splits into many fragments and so the Jean in the cocoon was still Jean, even if the Jean that was the Phoenix was also Jean. Madelyne Pryor was also a fragment of Jean. Eventually, near the end of the first X-Factor run, all of these fragments joined back together and that was the Jean who slowly grew in power through the 90s and into Morrison's run. But the current Marvel mindset/direction for Jean is that she isn't the Phoenix and the Phoenix Force is a totally separate thing and has no actual connection to Jean other than wanting her to host it a lot so obviously they aren't fragments of each other or anything like that, obviously. So officially the answer is to not think about it that much.
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Jan 25, 2019 23:28
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BrianWilly posted:
This is always the official answer to anything comic book related that isn't from Grant Morrison
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Jan 26, 2019 00:18
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BrianWilly posted:The actual in-canon explanation is that the Phoenix, aka Jean, constantly splits into many fragments and so the Jean in the cocoon was still Jean, even if the Jean that was the Phoenix was also Jean. Madelyne Pryor was also a fragment of Jean. Eventually, near the end of the first X-Factor run, all of these fragments joined back together and that was the Jean who slowly grew in power through the 90s and into Morrison's run. We are all Jean. And Jean is all us.
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Jan 26, 2019 07:42
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I sometimes wonder what X-Men would look like today if they stuck with the original idea of Jean staying dead and Scott marrying Madelyne Pryor and mostly retiring. Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't death much more permanent for characters at the time? Like they'd have fake-outs, but they were almost always resolved within that issue or early in the next one, if someone was dead for more than one issue they mostly stayed dead
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Jan 26, 2019 07:50
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BrianWilly posted:The actual in-canon explanation is that the Phoenix, aka Jean, constantly splits into many fragments and so the Jean in the cocoon was still Jean, even if the Jean that was the Phoenix was also Jean. Madelyne Pryor was also a fragment of Jean. Eventually, near the end of the first X-Factor run, all of these fragments joined back together and that was the Jean who slowly grew in power through the 90s and into Morrison's run. From a story perspective I think it's possible to reconcile all of this. The X-Factor-explained version of Phoenix is last seen near the end of Davis's run in Excalibur, 'killing' its conscious (aka its Jean-ness), deciding to let Rachel take the wheel. My no-prize explanation bridging the gap from there to here is from that point got bored or nostalgic after a few thousand years, and had access to Rachel's time travel power (hey when's the last time THAT has been brought up?) so just sent itself back and now is just some instinctual thing trying to find itself via possessing Jean or the people she loves. And Hope is another shard or something.
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Jan 26, 2019 08:37
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Skwirl posted:I sometimes wonder what X-Men would look like today if they stuck with the original idea of Jean staying dead and Scott marrying Madelyne Pryor and mostly retiring. Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't death much more permanent for characters at the time? Like they'd have fake-outs, but they were almost always resolved within that issue or early in the next one, if someone was dead for more than one issue they mostly stayed dead Yeah. And Jean stayed dead for a long time (six years), and there were very few cynical fans thinking, "alright, but when's she coming back?". Scott and Madelyne were married for a long time, too (three years where they were actually together, three more where they were still married but separated by circumstance while Cyclops was canoodling with Jean). Madelyne spent 1983 - 1989 being a member of the X-Men's supporting cast, who got her own subplots and stuff, before being retconned into an evil clone. It really came close to sticking. Then it didn't. It's a shame - honestly, reading those books, you feel sorry for poor Madelyne, who spends so long being a normal person then gets transformed into an evil psychic demon and commits suicide within the space of one terrible crossover.
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Jan 26, 2019 14:44
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Literally, because it would have aged Cyclops too much/made him look too bad to have him divorce Madelyne, they had to do the whole, "Madelyne becomes evil and then kills herself" thing. It's pretty seedy when you look at it from that perspective. It's like if Spider-Man's marriage had ended with him cheating on Mary Jane, then Mary Jane drinks Goblin Serum and fights him for a while before neatly shuffling herself off the board via suicide.
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Jan 26, 2019 14:48
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Android Blues posted:Yeah. And Jean stayed dead for a long time (six years), and there were very few cynical fans thinking, "alright, but when's she coming back?". Scott and Madelyne were married for a long time, too (three years where they were actually together, three more where they were still married but separated by circumstance while Cyclops was canoodling with Jean). Madelyne spent 1983 - 1989 being a member of the X-Men's supporting cast, who got her own subplots and stuff, before being retconned into an evil clone. Given that four issues after Jean "died" Claremont and Byrne introduced Rachel Summers, Jean and Scott's kid from the future, it wasn't as if they weren't teasing her coming back somehow within a few months. There were other teases/fakeouts, from introducing Madeline Pryor to your standard "[someone impersonating] Dark Phoenix is Back!" covers, but yeah, she did stay dead for six years and Cyclops was in a relationship with Madeline for six years. After Morrison's run on X-Men ended, Jean stayed dead for fourteen years (2003-2017) and Cyclops was in a relationship with Emma Frost for nearly as long, which I guess speaks more to cynical fans/a pattern developing in the past four decades, considering that both of these status quo changes lasted for twice as long as any of the original Claremont-era stuff. Skwirl posted:I sometimes wonder what X-Men would look like today if they stuck with the original idea of Jean staying dead and Scott marrying Madelyne Pryor and mostly retiring. Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't death much more permanent for characters at the time? Like they'd have fake-outs, but they were almost always resolved within that issue or early in the next one, if someone was dead for more than one issue they mostly stayed dead Captain Marvel - got an entire graphic novel dedicated to it, in part because they wanted to introduce a new Captain Marvel and Jim Shooter hated the idea of two characters having the same name Thanos/Warlock/etc. - Jim Starlin 'finished' their story because he was leaving Marvel and didn't want anyone to mess with them, essentially Professor Xavier - 'died' in X-Men #42 (1968) and revealed after the fact to be alive in #65 (1970) which might be Marvel's first semi-long-term fakeout death, which probably wasn't actually planned given that X-Men went through like four writers in that two year span. Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn Everyone else is on the order of The Swordsman or Doctor Destiny or whatever. And there would be a lot of weird workarounds while people seemed to consider whether or not to keep people dead, whether it's clones of Gwen Stacy or Norman Osborn's psychologist(?) dressing up as the Green Goblin or Madeline Pryor or a lot of dream sequence issues or whatever else. The big thing at play here is that "back then" the Marvel Universe (and DC treating their books as a 'universe') were both only a couple of decades old so there wasn't an incredible amount of precedent or track record. Now that it's almost triple that size of a sample, it distorts the length and frequency of things, as does nostalgia and the time of the reader's life and everything else. Just because it bears repeating, the very recent "Jean is dead and Scott's taken a new lover" status quo of the 2000s-2010s lasted for over twice as long as the original 1980s status quo.
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Jan 26, 2019 16:57
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Android Blues posted:Literally, because it would have aged Cyclops too much/made him look too bad to have him divorce Madelyne, they had to do the whole, "Madelyne becomes evil and then kills herself" thing. It's pretty seedy when you look at it from that perspective. It's like if Spider-Man's marriage had ended with him cheating on Mary Jane, then Mary Jane drinks Goblin Serum and fights him for a while before neatly shuffling herself off the board via suicide. Wow, that's like the one scenario Marvel could have tried to end the Spider-Marriage that's worse than One More Day!
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Jan 26, 2019 19:41
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Reading through District X and Generation M around House of M and the subsequent X-titles in the Decimation era for the first time, I'm really enjoying the grounding of mutants within society, with actual exploration of the mutant experience (including some intersectionality), which X-Factor Vol. 3 also gets into as I recall, and which of course builds on the previous X-Men foundation. I got into the X-Men with Messiah CompleX, which kicks off an era I'm fond of and got me hooked on the X-Men, and contrasts starkly with the last few years of meandering X-Men stories in terms of a lack of sense of place, which the X-Men pretty much always had, be it Australia or the Mansion, or SF/Utopia. Reading New X-Men again is also a great experience, though it cemented my X-Men love when I read it years ago. Plus, I'm having fun seeing Pixie's look change so much. Her rainbow wings were a statement!
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Jan 28, 2019 00:36
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Madeline was already evil/gone by the time I started reading, but due to X-men Classic being lined up with just-post Dark Phoenix by a few months, and graphic novels I read a lot of the Madeline stuff almost when I was early to it, and while I knew she would turn eventually (because Marvel cards), it just seemed like such an odd idea because Madeline was always so pleasant and cool. And I was left wondering, what about her coworkers? Actually I still wonder that.
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Jan 28, 2019 00:52
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All the stuff surrounding Madelyne in Inferno comes from Marvel resurrecting Jean Grey against Claremont's wishes. It's not really done in a meta sense, but all of her rage and willingness to burn the world down comes from the fact that she was textually only a replacement for the real Jean, and now that the original is alive there's no reason for her to be. Scott leaves her, Sinister tries to kill her. What is there left to do but burn everything they've tried to build down? I really like Inferno for lots of reasons, but the borderline meta approach to Claremont and Simonson's approach to Madelyne is up there.
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Jan 28, 2019 01:08
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Rochallor posted:All the stuff surrounding Madelyne in Inferno comes from Marvel resurrecting Jean Grey against Claremont's wishes. It's not really done in a meta sense, but all of her rage and willingness to burn the world down comes from the fact that she was textually only a replacement for the real Jean, and now that the original is alive there's no reason for her to be. Scott leaves her, Sinister tries to kill her. What is there left to do but burn everything they've tried to build down? Isn't it down to John Byrne specifically more than Claremont? He seemed to be the one who couldn't let sleeping Phoenixes lie, although now that I say that I'm genuinely not sure if that was a mandate so she could be around to join X-Factor.
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Jan 28, 2019 02:09
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Dawgstar posted:Isn't it down to John Byrne specifically more than Claremont? He seemed to be the one who couldn't let sleeping Phoenixes lie, although now that I say that I'm genuinely not sure if that was a mandate so she could be around to join X-Factor. the mandate was "X-Factor is going to be all 5 of the original X-Men or it's going to be nothing" because that's what Bob Layton wanted. and then Bob Layton bounced from the book after issue 5 and Louise Simonson took over so OOPS
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Jan 28, 2019 02:16
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Huh, I never knew Layton was involved. From how quickly he got shuffled off I kind of assumed the whole thing was an editor driven anniversary thing and nobody actually wanted to write the book.
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Jan 28, 2019 04:54
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Rochallor posted:Huh, I never knew Layton was involved. From how quickly he got shuffled off I kind of assumed the whole thing was an editor driven anniversary thing and nobody actually wanted to write the book. Well, apparently he'd have been around longer but in interviews he said the X-Office saw him as an interloper and made the experience so miserable he left after five issues.
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Jan 28, 2019 22:40
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