Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

Discendo Vox posted:

Every time information is provided refuting one argument, you move to a different one that was already addressed. The constant shifting of rhetorical focus from y'all is getting really old.

Isn't it interesting how you never do any sort of helpful posting and are only ever interested in policing the dialogue?

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:18

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# ? May 22, 2024 06:46

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

EDIT: Nevermind, don't want to post about posters against the moderators' warning.

Why is Donald Trump's motivation relevant to the discussion? He could be doing whatever he's doing for his own selfish, stupid reasons (and he probably is) while still doing the right thing. The right thing can be done for the wrong reasons, that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do. This issue should be viewed in the context of Venezuela and Venezuela alone, and from that point of view, the US is doing the correct thing by helping to remove Maduro, and Maduro's allies are doing the wrong thing by continuing to support someone who has stolen immeasurably, both money and lives, from his nation.

PT6A fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 27, 2019

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:22

GoluboiOgon: Aug 19, 2017; by Nyc_Tattoo

Presenting Nipples posted:

Can someone explain why Donald J. Trump, Elliot Abrams, & Mike Pompeo are so concerned about the plight of the Venezuelan people?

Overwhelming concern for the starving masses of venezuela
Indignation at government corruption in venezuela
Love of democracy

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:26

AFancyQuestionMark: Feb 19, 2017; Long time no see.

As an aside from the current conversation, one of the reasons that some of the PSUV defenders ITT are held in low regard is that they heavily give off the impression they only start paying attention to Venezuela whenever there is some major push in western media or it comes up on their tweeter feed.

This makes them come off as incredibly uninformed, even to someone like me who's only been following Venezuela from a distance, let alone the actual Venezuelans ITT. That makes their mostly well justified principles against US intervention appear as if they are molding their perception of the present and past state of the country.

This makes it very difficult for me personally, and maybe others, to trust any unsourced statements they make about the current conditions in Venezuela and their causes.

AFancyQuestionMark fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jan 27, 2019

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:27

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

To be clear, Americans have every bit as much a right to comment on the actions of their own government as "actual Venezuelans"*

*Venezuelans who support the coup

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:39

AFancyQuestionMark: Feb 19, 2017; Long time no see.

I didn't mean to imply they didn't, just that their info on Venezuela itself may be incomplete.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:43

Blue Nation: Nov 25, 2012

CLAP packages are distributed in my area every 6 to 8 months. 6 kilos of lentils and 3 of rice are not going to last for half a year.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:49

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Presenting Nipples posted:

Nah you are the expert clearly. What do you perceive to be motivating the trump admin�s actions in Venezuela?

What actions are you talking about?

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:54

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Proposal 497 of the Popular Will party platform outlines an intention to privatize the state oil company.

quote:
Following are three proposals: restructuring PDVSA as part of the hydrocarbons industry, increase the private participation in the industry and create a independent regulatory body of the National Executive.

The above text you quote does *not* mention privatizing PDVSA, though. It *does* say they seek to increase private participation in the (oil) industry, which probably does mean seeking investment to reverse all the damage done by the systematic looting of PDVSA by the government and increase output. I point out this was normal practice under Chavez. PDVSA regularly partnered with foreign oil firms, even after 2008 when Exxon and Conoco left the Orinoco projects.
https://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/57494/pdvsa_aims_for_57b_investment_in_former_exxon_venture/

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:55

fnox: May 19, 2013

AFancyQuestionMark posted:

As an aside from the current conversation, one of the reasons that some of the PSUV defenders ITT are held in low regard is that they heavily give off the impression they only start paying attention to Venezuela whenever there is some major push in western media or it comes up on their tweeter feed.

This makes them come off as incredibly uninformed, even to someone like me who's only been following Venezuela from a distance, let alone the actual Venezuelans ITT. That makes their mostly well justified principles against US intervention appear as if they are molding their perception of the present and past state of the country.

This makes it very difficult for me personally, and maybe others, to trust any unsourced statements they make about the current conditions in Venezuela and their causes.

It also makes it harder to not see them as a specific group when you see them spout their usual lines, then run back to C-SPAM to giggle at whatever replies they got.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:56

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

I'm looking for information to read on the last elections in Venezuela. Can someone point me to sources to read about their legitimacy or lack of, and what went down? Thanks

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:57

CAPS LOCK BROKEN: Feb 1, 2006; by Fluffdaddy

Venezuela crisis: Former UN rapporteur says US sanctions are killing citizens

quote:

Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to The Independent following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.

�Sanctions kill,� he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a �sister democracy�.

This part is also good too:

quote:

Eugenia Russian , president of FUNDALATIN, one of the oldest human rights NGOs in Venezuela, founded in 1978 before the Chavez and Maduro governments and with special consultative status at the UN, spoke to The Independent on the significance of the sanctions.

�In contact with the popular communities, we consider that one of the fundamental causes of the economic crisis in the country is the effect that the unilateral coercive sanctions that are applied in the economy, especially by the government of the United States,� Ms Russian said.

She said there may also be causes from internal errors, but said probably few countries in the world have suffered an �economic siege� like the one Venezuelans are living under.

CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jan 27, 2019

# ? Jan 27, 2019 21:58

Rodatose: Jul 8, 2008; corn, corn, corn

mila kunis posted:

I'm looking for information to read on the last elections in Venezuela. Can someone point me to sources to read about their legitimacy or lack of, and what went down? Thanks

here's some ama

https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/ak1wtu/hello_im_dr_alan_macleod_i_have_studied_venezuela/ef0s31f/

quote:

The 2013 Elections

Nicolas Maduro came to power in 2013, after he won the vote 51% to 49%, winning 15 of 23 states.

The Venezuelan elections are perhaps the most heavily monitored in the world, and in order to vote you need your picture ID card. Once you have been checked you vote on an electronic machine which reads your thumb print. So you need to pass 2 tests in order to vote. The machine also gives you a paper ballot which you put in a locked box. The paper ballots are checked to see if they match the electronic vote. They must match perfectly. In 2013 it was accurate to 99.98% (22 votes). This is watched over by international monitors and party members from all sides. This system is considered ��in line with its advanced technological level� according to the EU and Jimmy Carter said �I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world . . . they have a very wonderful voting system.�

Opposition/US media/Us government claims:

The opposition/US government claims that the elections are not clean because the government has control over the media and pressures the public into voting for them. Yet a report by the Washington-based, Washington funded Carter Center, who are paid by the US to go and monitor their enemies� elections, and are staffed with anti-Chavez staff declared the election exemplary. In fact, the Carter Center found that the opposition candidate received nearly double the coverage of Maduro in the media, most of it being positive, with the majority of Maduro�s coverage being negative. Furthermore, a report from AGB Nielsen (of the Neilsen ratings) found that state TV�s share of the market was under 10%. The Carter Center also found that less than one per cent of Venezuelans reported feeling pressured into voting- and twice as many reported being pressured to vote for the opposition than Maduro.

Every single country in the world acknowledged the 2013 elections as free and fair, except the United States. Yet the US media, by a 12:1 ratio, presented the elections as unclean or worse, a sham. The Washington Post stated,

�Unsurprisingly, polls show that Mr. Maduro will win this grossly one-sided contest. If by some chance he does not, the regime is unlikely to accept the results� (April 12th).

Even the UK media displayed a 3:1 ratio of unclean to clean.

2018 Elections

I wrote a paper about the 2018 elections and how the media covered them. First of all, the reason there were elections in the first place was because the US and the opposition demanded the 2019 elections be brought forward. Surprisingly, Maduro accepted. Then the US and opposition demand they be postponed. So Maduro accepted that too. Then much of the opposition decided to boycott the election anyway, which resulted in them not registering for it (hence the story that they were �barred� from competing). The government asked the UN to come to inspect the elections, but the US demanded they did not because they would �validate� them. The US actually tried to intimidate the main opposition candidate, Henri Falcon from running.

As far as I am aware, three international election observation teams observed the 2018 elections.

The report of the African Nations� delegation stated The Venezuelan people who chose to participate in the electoral process of May 20 were not subject to any external pressures, and carried out their right to vote in a peaceful and civil manner which we commend... As such, we implore the international community to abide by international law and the principles of self-determination and recognize what we consider to be a free, fair, fully transparent and sovereign election.

The Caribbean preliminary report mission�s report was similarly positive.

The Latin American Council of Electoral Experts (CEELA), consisting of senior election co-ordinators, most from countries openly hostile to Venezuela, praised the �high level of security and efficiency�, noting that the vote reflected �the will of its citizens, freely expressed in the ballot box�.

There were also other senior figures observing the election, like former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Zapatero who said "I do not have any doubt about the voting process. It is an advanced automatic voting system.� Or ex-President of Ecuador Rafael Correa who said "The Venezuelan elections are developing with absolute normalcy. I�ve attended four polling stations. There is a permanent flow of citizenship, with short waiting and voting times. Very modern system with double control. From what I�ve seen, [it�s] impeccable organization."

In fact, the strongest criticism from those three reports was probably that there were some voting stations were not on the ground floor, meaning some voters had trouble accessing them.

However, the international reaction was mixed this time, with much of the West condemning the elections. The EU, for example, expressed concerns. Nevertheless, as far as I am aware, I have quoted and given links to every observation team's study of the 2018 election. As one commenter has pointed out, Leopoldo Lopez, a key opposition figure, is under house arrest. However, if I may, I think it is deceitful of some people to throw out factoids without explaining the context. You hear "opposition leader in jail" in the media and think "wow, that's hosed up". However, Lopez is under house arrest because he led a wave of terroristic violence in 2014 aimed at overthrowing the government, that included beheading passers-by, bombing schools and kindergartens and attacking doctors. Lopez also once kidnapped the Minister of the Interior on live television. It is a pretty open-and-shut case that he is guilty.

Nevertheless, the election system itself has integrity. The media likes to say it is totally corrupt but didn't seem to complain when the election system delivered a resounding victory for the opposition in the 2015 elections. Somehow that one was ok.

Edit: I should also note that the US (and the media) has claimed every election in Venezuela since 2000 is fraudulent.

Rodatose fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jan 27, 2019

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:03

Gervasius: Nov 2, 2010; Grimey Drawer

mila kunis posted:

I'm looking for information to read on the last elections in Venezuela. Can someone point me to sources to read about their legitimacy or lack of, and what went down? Thanks

Click on ? under Chuck Boone's post and go back a few pages.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:06

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Chuck Boone posted:

This thread's been up since 2015, and I hung out a lot in the one that was here before it. So I've been here for at least four years.

I'm speaking only for myself, obviously, but it's really tough. Reading comments from the endless parade of apologists who drop in here whenever something big enough happens in Venezuela to make international news is discouraging sometimes. It's always the same rehashed of propaganda, the same unreliable sources. I'm much quieter now in here than I've been in previous times for the sake of my emotional health. I still want to provide regular updates, but recently I haven't even been skimming the thread.

I'd ask then why you keep coming back, but I seriously doubt there's any better place on the internet to have these discussions. There's no escaping the partisan animosity.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:08

fnox: May 19, 2013

Rodatose posted:

here's some ama

https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/ak1wtu/hello_im_dr_alan_macleod_i_have_studied_venezuela/ef0s31f/

That's just awful and filled with inaccuracies. We've talked about these talking points before and I'm getting sick of repeating myself.

Here's a better article by the BBC

CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:

This part is also good too:

So what about this part?

quote:

The Maduro government is responsible for �the worst human rights crisis in the country�s history,� according to Amnesty.

�Venezuela is going through one of the worst human rights crises in its history. The list of crimes under international law against the population is growing,� Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty�s Americas director, said in late 2018.

�It is alarming that, instead of applying efficient public policies to protect people and reduce levels of insecurity, the Venezuelan authorities are using the language of war to try to legitimise the use of excessive force by police and military officials and, in many cases, the use of lethal force with intent to kill.�

Worse than Chicago or nah?

fnox fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jan 27, 2019

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:09

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

fishmech posted:

What actions are you talking about?

Their actions in venezuela, which has been documented in this thread over and over again and I�m not going to repeat to you.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:09

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Presenting Nipples posted:

Their actions in venezuela, which has been documented in this thread over and over again and I’m not going to repeat to you.

What actions in Venezuela? You're upset about refining their oil, or what? You don't like how GM stopped producing cars in Venezuela? You don't like that disputes over port facilities in Venezuela eventually led to Conoco taking over numerous US Citgo franchised gas stations in exchange for agreements to forgive/reduce certain Citgo/PDVSA debts? You don't like that reporters visit?

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:14

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Rodatose posted:

here's some ama

https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/ak1wtu/hello_im_dr_alan_macleod_i_have_studied_venezuela/ef0s31f/

Re this part

quote:

This Latin America-wide slump has been used by the right to come to power, often illegally, for example in coups in Brazil and Honduras and a constitutional coup in Paraguay. The right is ascendant and one by one the empire has struck back, picking off leftist governments.

I knew about Honduras and the coup against Dilma/jailing of Lula in Brazil, what happened in Paraguay?

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:20

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

fishmech posted:

What actions in Venezuela? You're upset about refining their oil, or what? You don't like how GM stopped producing cars in Venezuela? You don't like that disputes over port facilities in Venezuela eventually led to Conoco taking over numerous US Citgo franchised gas stations in exchange for agreements to forgive/reduce certain Citgo/PDVSA debts? You don't like that reporters visit?

I�m glad we established that you can�t read and don�t want to address why the US would want regime change in Venezuela. You�d rather spin around in circles of endless pedantry.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:22

Rodatose: Jul 8, 2008; corn, corn, corn

fnox posted:

That's just awful and filled with inaccuracies. We've talked about these talking points before and I'm getting sick of repeating myself.

Here's a better article by the BBC

That article does not actually address any of these "talking points" and actually falls into what the AMA describes as EU sources having a heavy slant that does not include the election verification results. Most importantly your article doesn't address independent election verification results under "international response" section, only covering the reaction from various country figureheads to imply that nobody can really know what happened with the election to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the elections

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:25

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Presenting Nipples posted:

I’m glad we established that you can’t read and don’t want to address why the US would want regime change in Venezuela. You’d rather spin around in circles of endless pedantry.

Please state what actions you're talking about. You should be able to do that if they exist. Also reminder that "regime change" is a meaningless buzzword so please talk about things that actually happened in Venezuela.

Reminder: Maduro illegally abrogated the Bolivarian Constitution.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:26

fnox: May 19, 2013

gently caress it, it's a cult. Not worth it.

I don't even know what that bird is.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:27

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Rodatose posted:

That article does not actually address any of these "talking points" and actually falls into what the AMA describes as EU sources having a heavy slant that does not include the election verification results. Most importantly your article doesn't address independent election verification results under "international response" section, only covering the reaction from various country figureheads to imply that nobody can really know what happened with the election to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the elections

Yeah I'm not sure how a BBC article that doesn't mention the groups/nations that did election verification at all, even if only to dismiss them with reasons for doing so - give me something, anything - is better than that AMA response.The two even agree in some places. So if the AMA is full of inaccuracies then what does that make the supposed superior BBC article? This is insane.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:30

Rodatose: Jul 8, 2008; corn, corn, corn

mila kunis posted:

Re this part

I knew about Honduras and the coup against Dilma/jailing of Lula in Brazil, what happened in Paraguay?

In 2008 a liberation theology leftist guy got elected president. in 2012 the opposition, which controlled the senate, passed a rushed impeachment process against the president in a way that gave them less than 24 hours to prepare for the proceedings. impeachment was ovewhelmingly approved in senate and an opposition leader gained the presidency

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:31

Pedro De Heredia: May 30, 2006

Rodatose posted:

here's some ama

https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/ak1wtu/hello_im_dr_alan_macleod_i_have_studied_venezuela/ef0s31f/

"This system is considered ��in line with its advanced technological level� according to the EU and Jimmy Carter said �I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world . . . they have a very wonderful voting system.�"

Anyone who brings up the Jimmy Carter quote about the Venezuelan election process being great without bringing up that the Carter Center denounced 2017 Venezuelan elections and its Latin America and Caribbean director said the last vestiges of democracy there were gone, is clearly just trying to con you.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 22:59

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

fnox posted:

gently caress it, it's a cult. Not worth it.

I don't even know what that bird is.

Northern Crested Caracara.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 23:04

PreciousGoy: Jan 27, 2019; by FactsAreUseless

fnox posted:

gently caress it, it's a cult. Not worth it.

I don't even know what that bird is.

You don't recognize a bird that's native to where you supposedly come from? How interesting.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jan 27, 2019 23:11

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

fishmech posted:

Please state what actions you're talking about. You should be able to do that if they exist. Also reminder that "regime change" is a meaningless buzzword so please talk about things that actually happened in Venezuela.

Yeah, that thing the US has stated as an explicit goal in Venezuela and in dozens of other countries they dont like the local governments is a meaningless buzzword and doesn't really exist. Nailed it in one buck.

# ? Jan 27, 2019 23:18

Det_no: Oct 24, 2003

This is a nice front page, I think.

Det_no fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jan 27, 2019

# ? Jan 27, 2019 23:21

Berke Negri: Feb 15, 2012; Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1089650383075622913

i don't think this is it, chief

# ? Jan 27, 2019 23:27

Kavros: May 18, 2011; sleep sleep sleep
fly fly post post
sleep sleep sleep

These supposed "Venezuelans" have been undone by their poor command of wild regional ornithology. psyop confirmed!

# ? Jan 27, 2019 23:27

Pochoclo: Feb 4, 2008; No...; Clapping Larry

People saying some people appearing in videos are fake Venezuelans because they're white, because as we all know there are no white people in Latin America

Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 27, 2019

# ? Jan 27, 2019 23:53

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Maduro was at the Paramacay base in Carabobo state earlier today to look at some soldiers. These events are relatively common, but this one's taken on more meaning given the events of the last few days. The message of this was obviously to show that Maduro is still in command, that everything is fine, and that the army still loves him.

Paramacay is home to the 41st Armoured Brigade.

Here's Maduro inspecting the troops:

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1089561835152596992

Maduro led the soldiers around a walk of the base:

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1089563440673361920

At some point they all decided to start jogging:

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1089564309489897472

Here he is giving a speech to the troops:

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1089565196841074689

After visiting Paramacay Maduro went to Puerto Cabello:

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1089630361313832960

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1089633250555936768

And here he is locking arms with the bros:

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1089645866389065728

Berke Negri posted:

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1089650383075622913

i don't think this is it, chief

Did I hear that right? "Jard Kushner's leading it?" :suicide:

https://twitter.com/infinite_scream/status/1089667389233479680

Squalid posted:

I'd ask then why you keep coming back, but I seriously doubt there's any better place on the internet to have these discussions. There's no escaping the partisan animosity.

I used to lurk the hell out of the Libyan civil war thread. I learned a lot from it. I'm hoping people are learning from this thread as well.

# ? Jan 28, 2019 01:19

Barudak: May 7, 2007

I appreciate all your posts Chuck Boone you do a great job.

# ? Jan 28, 2019 01:22

Pharohman777: Jan 14, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Is there any way to get Chuck boone appointed idiot king of the thread? should I make a QQCS thread?

# ? Jan 28, 2019 01:27

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Please god yes, some sort of internal management by the competent would be nice.

# ? Jan 28, 2019 01:50

AlexanderCA: Jul 21, 2010; by Cyrano4747

Wouldnt blame him for not wanting to deal with that poo poo though.

# ? Jan 28, 2019 01:58

Blue Nation: Nov 25, 2012

For whatever is worth I am very grateful for your posts Chuck Boone.

# ? Jan 28, 2019 02:02

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# ? May 22, 2024 06:46

Kavros: May 18, 2011; sleep sleep sleep
fly fly post post
sleep sleep sleep

Would like to cosign for Chuck Boone. The current status of this thread is only slightly embarrassing, and that would help significantly.

# ? Jan 28, 2019 02:02

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