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Neddy Seagoon posted:I don't think that's really a valid complaint anymore with the series properly finished, just because in hindsight it looks an awful lot like someone ducked their head into the writers room at the last second and said "hey guys, you're actually getting a second season" rather than planning it that way from the start. Nevermind that season 2 more than makes up for those punches pulled. I don't buy that at all, both because none of the characters whose deaths were walked back were essential to season two so their roles could have been replaced without much impact and for the selfish reason that people often complain about Sunrise having problems with second seasons, complaints which are often valid, but it seems like some of the same people are willing to ignore issues like that in shows they like. I'm not even accusing anyone in particular, since I'm not bothered enough to compare posts on the matter or recall individual instances but Gundam 00 recommendations for instance are so often qualified with "but the second season has issues" while recommendations for IBO rarely qualify the show in such a way that there's probably some crossover. Then again, I found the middle of season one atrociously dull so I think I found the ending extra disappointing because there were a few good episodes building it up; only for all the build up to feel wasted. The second season recreating (or surpassing really) that feeling doesn't take away from that disappointment in my opinion. It'll still be my abiding memory and sentiment on of the show because it's hard to walk back a bad impression. Solkanar512 posted:Oh poo poo, good point. I always thought the head guns looked silly anyway. The head vulcans make some sense in that they're a relatively small and non-essential weapon often used against secondary threats, so placing them somewhere with a highly flexible joint that can aim almost anywhere independent of the rest of the body is a good idea. On the other hand, using the main weapon mounts for that purpose seems kind of silly. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jan 30, 2019 |
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Jan 30, 2019 19:19
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I've got to get back to S2 oof IBO soon. it lost my attention somewhere right in the middle of the season, but I really want to push to the end
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Jan 30, 2019 19:24
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tsob posted:I don't buy that at all, both because none of the characters whose deaths were walked back were essential to season two so their roles could have been replaced without much impact and for the selfish reason that people often complain about Sunrise having problems with second seasons, complaints which are often valid, but it seems like some of the same people are willing to ignore issues like that in shows they like. The pistols are shown to be faster-firing, quicker to draw, and less cumbersome than the rifle, though, and combined with Vidar's ludicrously fast reflexes, that's probably good enough.
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Jan 30, 2019 19:30
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The pistols are there because they look cool and that's fine. Also, the Vidar's got a rocket on it's upper shins and upper calfs, for the express purpose of kicking poo poo harder. That' owns.
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Jan 30, 2019 21:56
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Don't forget the gigantic shin-length drill bit.
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Jan 30, 2019 22:25
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tsob posted:The head vulcans make some sense in that they're a relatively small and non-essential weapon often used against secondary threats, so placing them somewhere with a highly flexible joint that can aim almost anywhere independent of the rest of the body is a good idea. On the other hand, using the main weapon mounts for that purpose seems kind of silly. ZZ on the other hand has a giant cannon in the middle of it's head.
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Jan 30, 2019 22:28
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Spelling Mitsake posted:ZZ on the other hand has a giant cannon in the middle of it's head. That might actually be one of the most sane design choices of the time. Outside of the One Year War, how often have mobile suits, specifically the Federation's mobile suits, been going against tanks, planes, and other military vehicles? I can't think of a battle between Zeta and Unicorn's battle at Torrington that featured mobile suits engaging something other than a mobile suit or large spacecraft.
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Jan 30, 2019 22:44
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Plus, the Double Zeta still has goddamn Vulcans. It's the very extra.
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Jan 30, 2019 22:49
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Warmachine posted:That might actually be one of the most sane design choices of the time. Outside of the One Year War, how often have mobile suits, specifically the Federation's mobile suits, been going against tanks, planes, and other military vehicles? I can't think of a battle between Zeta and Unicorn's battle at Torrington that featured mobile suits engaging something other than a mobile suit or large spacecraft. If the ZZ fires its head cannon at full power it melts the suit's optics.
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Jan 30, 2019 23:36
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tsob posted:I don't buy that at all, both because none of the characters whose deaths were walked back were essential to season two so their roles could have been replaced without much impact and for the selfish reason that people often complain about Sunrise having problems with second seasons, complaints which are often valid, but it seems like some of the same people are willing to ignore issues like that in shows they like. The reason that IBO and 00 have different second season discussions is that they have very different weaknesses. IBO's "second season problem" is they blinked at the end of the first season. (With the characters it blinked on varying from "non-essential, but nobody else could fill their role in the second season plot so well" to "Actually essential") The second season itself is like the first season, with a bunch of kids who just wanted to find their place in the world getting jerked about by everyone who knows what's really going on and responding with ultraviolence that just makes everything ramp up more. Although some people worried about the talk that season 2 would have more Gundams and more action, it still kept its fight-every-2-ish-episodes pacing, there were more returning Gundam frames than new ones, and the grunt suits actually got more focus in fights. Meanwhile, 00 went from having a varied group of opponents, moral ambiguity over the heroes's mission, lots of ground level prospectives, and a basic setup that attempted to comment on Current Issues, season 2 of 00 switched to "What if we did Zeta Gundam?", with a clear goodies-v-baddies divide and the previous season's main surviving non-military characters getting drafted. They're very different situations
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Jan 31, 2019 00:45
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chiasaur11 posted:The reason that IBO and 00 have different second season discussions is that they have very different weaknesses. IBO's "second season problem" is they blinked at the end of the first season. IBO doesn't have a second season problem, it has a first season problem. Namely a large part of the first season is spent spinning wheels before backing down on it's own danger in a disappointing manner so that it can have more story for it's second season. That's the qualification I meant. One that I rarely see proffered. chiasaur11 posted:With the characters it blinked on varying from "non-essential, but nobody else could fill their role in the second season plot so well" to "Actually essential" The two characters the show most obviously blinked on are Lafter and Norba, one of whom is mostly a love interest in the second season and the other of whom is mostly prominent as a named pilot for one of the other Gundams. Roles which could easily be filled by others really. I only even remembered Gaelio actually falls in to that category after reading your post, but I'd hardly count him personally both because his survival wasn't revealed until the second season had actually aired, rather than almost immediately in a way that just undermines the villain the show was trying to establish and because Gaelio's survival was taken for granted by so many given the way his defeat was framed. Which I suppose is disappointing in its own way, but not what I'd been thinking of at least. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 01:28
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Punches got pulled because when you quite probably don't have more than a loose draft ready for a second season on-hand you don't want to off two of your better-known secondary characters QUITE yet when they might still be useful to the plot going forward. It's a better judgement call than winding up having to go with "meet the two new female pilots for season 2, same as the old female pilots from the last season".
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Jan 31, 2019 10:46
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Punches got pulled because when you quite probably don't have more than a loose draft ready for a second season on-hand you don't want to off two of your better-known secondary characters QUITE yet when they might still be useful to the plot going forward. I understand why the production team pulled those punches; I'm just saying I don't think it makes for very good TV regardless. And also that allowing them to die and going with a new story for the second season once it was confirmed, even if it meant going off script from what you had might have made for a more satisfying and memorable conclusion to season one I guess. Yeah, season two might have suffered to make season one land but I think that's a chance worth taking and I'd prefer a good first season over a good second one even if it didn't work. Neddy Seagoon posted:It's a better judgement call than winding up having to go with "meet the two new female pilots for season 2, same as the old female pilots from the last season". Only one of them was implied to die, no? Regardless, I disagree. Especially when the show had already introduced a shipful of female characters that could easily have had some pilots the audience hadn't been introduced to yet. With ties to a broader organization that could also conceivably had pilots we hadn't met yet. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 12:39
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chiasaur11 posted:"What if we did Zeta Gundam?" This seems to be a running trend with the weaker Gundam shows. The two obvious apes being Destiny and 00-S2. I can't think of any others that have cribbed off Zeta's notes particularly obviously. Kanos posted:If the ZZ fires its head cannon at full power it melts the suit's optics. I mean, that still serves more of a purpose as an auxiliary weapon than bullets that can't punch through the armor of the things you will be fighting. Maybe just dial back the power a wee bit? Enough to give the baddies something to think about, but not enough to melt your own face. At the same time, if the suit was originally destined for the Titans, I could see them including vulcans. Their whole schtick was suppressing civilian rebellion along side their official role as an anti-terrorist organization, so having something that could gun down infantry and armored cars without needing to fire the main weapon would be useful. Either way, by the end of the Gryps conflict, there was a distinct declining need to be mounting vulcans on mobile suits. tsob posted:I understand why the production team pulled those punches; I'm just saying I don't think it makes for very good TV regardless. And also that allowing them to die and going with a new story for the second season once it was confirmed, even if it meant going off script from what you had might have made for a more satisfying and memorable conclusion to season one I guess. Maybe it was because I watched them back to back, but I didn't feel particularly let down by the ending of S1. Sure, they could have killed a few protagonists, but coming out relatively unscathed was useful for finishing the "climb." Season 1 felt like a rags-to-riches arc, where Tekkadan are starting from nothing and slowly earning allies and resources. The season finale is the culmination of the road thus far, where they've become a force to be reckoned with, and made a name for themselves as military contractors. Season 2, meanwhile, is their fall, and it is appropriate that their deaths are concentrated there. They are not prepared for the high-level world of politics that their work in S1 cast them into (since that's how they made their name; escorting a political dissident and helping an exile return to power). McGillis plays them like a fiddle, who is himself being played by Rustal, and that leaves Tekkadan as expendable pawns that Orga and everyone else in that structure is unable to mitigate. Season 2 yanks the leash of season 1, and I can't really find fault with season 1 for choosing a more optimistic ending while running a train over the protagonists in season 2.
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Jan 31, 2019 14:52
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I was happy they survived. The stakes in the final episodes were more "will the mission succeed" than "who will survive" anyway so it didn't take anything meaningful from my experience. The pilots being taken out of action was the key thing to the narrative.
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Jan 31, 2019 14:53
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Warmachine posted:I mean, that still serves more of a purpose as an auxiliary weapon than bullets that can't punch through the armor of the things you will be fighting. They're mostly used to shoot down missiles, funnels etc. Which they generally can penetrate. They do see some use as a distraction, but that's secondary to their use against smaller weapons platforms. Warmachine posted:Either way, by the end of the Gryps conflict, there was a distinct declining need to be mounting vulcans on mobile suits. On the other hand, armor generally became thin again only a few years later as engineers focused on speed and maneuverability over armor given that beams made armor almost worthless. By UC0093, Hathaway could use the Re-GZ's vulcans to destroy a Geara Doga on their own. This design philosophy continued for the next few decades up to at least Victory, depending on whether Gaia Gear, G-Saviour etc are considered canon anymore.
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Jan 31, 2019 15:47
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The most disappointing thing about the second season of Gundam 00 was the fact that it started off really drat strong. Watching them have to work back up after suffering a massive defeat, breaking the gang out of jail was downright badass and then it just faltered.
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Jan 31, 2019 17:24
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And then the Movie hurtled off the rails into nonsense land.
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Jan 31, 2019 17:32
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Kurieg posted:And then the Movie hurtled off the rails into nonsense land. I really liked the Gundam 00 movie. On an unrelated note, I believe Maximum Overdrive is the greatest movie ever made.
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Jan 31, 2019 18:23
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Warmachine posted:I mean, that still serves more of a purpose as an auxiliary weapon than bullets that can't punch through the armor of the things you will be fighting. Maybe just dial back the power a wee bit? Enough to give the baddies something to think about, but not enough to melt your own face. There's stuff that aren't mobile suits. Funnels, Incoms and missiles/rockets still exist and you never know when a Bikini Bazooka Squad is going to attack you. In the shows we mostly see them used to herd enemies into your main gun because having a bunch of bullets hitting your cameras makes it really difficult to fight properly. They don't blow up the enemy mobile suits, but they still help to get that done. You don't need them 100% of the time, but its better to have them and not need them than the opposite.
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Jan 31, 2019 19:14
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The movie is batshit nonsense and has horrible fight choreography but it has a really interesting idea and I appreciate what it was trying to do. It's a hell of a lot better then S2.
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Feb 1, 2019 00:50
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I'll always give a lot of slack to fiction that has aliens that are truly alien to what life on Earth is like.
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Feb 1, 2019 01:32
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I like the stupid movie in the beginning.
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Feb 1, 2019 01:36
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The 00 movie's very beginning and end sequence were cool Stuff like Allelujah getting chased by a sentient hummer, not so much.
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Feb 1, 2019 02:05
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MechaX posted:The 00 movie's very beginning and end sequence were cool That was the best scene in the movie.
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Feb 1, 2019 02:13
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The funniest thing about 00 is that nearly everything from the Season 2 joke teaser actually came true. Except for "cats will dance", that's the only thing that didn't happen. Unless there was a pun that flew over my head that the phrase was supposed to represent.
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Feb 1, 2019 04:45
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Ethiser posted:I'll always give a lot of slack to fiction that has aliens that are truly alien to what life on Earth is like. While I agree with this, there's a fine line between truly alien and nonsense. ELS really falls under the latter, especially given it gets wrapped up with the quantize garbage. edit: Basically, stop trying to technobabble me your literal magic and trying to pretend it's actually esoteric technology. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Feb 1, 2019 |
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Feb 1, 2019 04:51
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You'd think after the 2nd attempt at 'communication' the ELS would realize everyone they try to communicate with ends up dead and stop being so hellbent on continuing said 'communication'
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Feb 1, 2019 04:58
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Pureauthor posted:You'd think after the 2nd attempt at 'communication' the ELS would realize everyone they try to communicate with ends up dead and stop being so hellbent on continuing said 'communication' I think they just assumed that was inevitable and an acceptable price to pay, much like a Victorian biologist with a specimen jar. Setsuna was the first to present them with an alternative and superior method.
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Feb 1, 2019 05:01
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Pureauthor posted:You'd think after the 2nd attempt at 'communication' the ELS would realize everyone they try to communicate with ends up dead and stop being so hellbent on continuing said 'communication' Look, it's like ST: IV and its Whale Probe, where the entire plot doesn't make a lick of sense when you stop to think about it. No, seriously, they come to Earth in their gargantuan spaceship to check up on why their best buddies have stopped responding (the Humpback Whale... just ignore how whalesong is somehow interstellar, it's the '80s) and their attempts to communicate are literally wrecking the environment. I mean, good job attempting to murder them all if they hadn't already been extinct.
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Feb 1, 2019 05:08
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The thing that got me was the whole "GN particles are actually magical evolution energy" thing.
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Feb 1, 2019 05:10
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I liked the ELS because they assimilate poo poo and this is the first time they've encountered anything else. The depiction isn't great but they're generally consistent? When your only method of communication is quantum brainwaves and your only method of interaction is assimilation, you work with what you get. The explanation I've arrived at is not only do the ELS not understand they're killing the people they're assimilating, but they're incredibly dense. This might be because they only perceive quantum brainwaves as signs of life which is why they didn't fully assimilate the girl. Still doesn't really explain assimilating her house but it's a good horror moment. They clearly don't quite get why they're being shot at constantly but they're working with what they have and maybe shooting is a form of communication so let's try that. It's only when Setsuna can set up two-way communication with the bandwidth to support it that the ELS can realize they hosed up real hard. And yeah I didn't really like GN particles being evolution particles.
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Feb 1, 2019 09:46
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It’s been forever since I watched any of 00 but wasn’t the whole point that the ELS were completely new to this whole first contact thing as well? It wasn’t just that they were an alien intelligence, it’s that they were an alien intelligence that was just as unprepared to deal with other alien intelligences as we were. Also their planet blew up and they wanted ours for some reason or something. The 00 movie was not at all a good movie but I still enjoyed it for the attempt at handling the material it did, and it was a shitload better at handling the whole “communication is key” theme than S2 was.
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Feb 1, 2019 10:52
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Psycho Landlord posted:It’s been forever since I watched any of 00 but wasn’t the whole point that the ELS were completely new to this whole first contact thing as well? It wasn’t just that they were an alien intelligence, it’s that they were an alien intelligence that was just as unprepared to deal with other alien intelligences as we were. Also their planet blew up and they wanted ours for some reason or something. It's unclear. It's not really explained how they even got here but they likely have some form of FTL. The Gundam wiki says they selected Jupiter to become their new homeworld, and that the invasion of Earth was sort of by accident as they were seeing where the Europa (the spaceship) came from. Everything after that was just escalating responses from both sides. I stick by them not realizing humanity is intelligent because it makes sense for them to think quantum brainwaves is a requirement for intelligent life. They clearly didn't understand what humanity was because they kept assimilating people.
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Feb 1, 2019 11:10
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I love how 00 tries to do classic Sci-Fi like Foundation and 2001 within a Gundam framework.
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Feb 1, 2019 15:53
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All of 00 is good and the movie is good, only real problem I have with the movie is that the fights are boring since they're fighting masses of grey metal.
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Feb 1, 2019 16:06
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Kurieg posted:The thing that got me was the whole "GN particles are actually magical evolution energy" thing. Too much like Getter Rays or... Not enough? Turn that Trans-Am into a Shine Spark, Setsuna.
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Feb 1, 2019 23:03
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HitTheTargets posted:Too much like Getter Rays or... Not enough? Turn that Trans-Am into a Shine Spark, Setsuna. Better yet, Stoner Sunshine!
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Feb 1, 2019 23:58
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HitTheTargets posted:Too much like Getter Rays or... Not enough? Turn that Trans-Am into a Shine Spark, Setsuna. Do you want Spiral Nemesis? Because that's how you get Spiral Nemesis. (Seriously, it's kind of funny that the evolution energy in the series about punching the universe so hard it gives up and agrees that you're allowed to do whatever you want has the message "But seriously, this poo poo can out of control. Exercise restraint when using the energy of evolution to throw galaxies at people." and the one where the protagonists are cheery psychopaths has them freak the gently caress out at the eventual results of this power taken to its logical conclusion, but the one that started out about semi-realistic geopolitics is all "Just throw that evolution energy everywhere! What could go wrong?")
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Feb 2, 2019 00:55
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There's a ZZ variant that I love but I don't know much about, the ZZ Nitro
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Feb 2, 2019 02:27
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