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Keetron posted:You are Dutch! And wrong. Oh yeah even outside of the firing stuff the labor laws over here are antithetical to the American workplace experience. If I recall correctly, it's actually law that somewhere between July and October an employer *must* ensure you receive 3 consecutive workweeks of time off for vacation - and if you for example become sick a week into your vacation and a doctor certifies such, you get those days back.
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Feb 1, 2019 20:39
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Cuntpunch posted:Oh yeah even outside of the firing stuff the labor laws over here are antithetical to the American workplace experience. If I recall correctly, it's actually law that somewhere between July and October an employer *must* ensure you receive 3 consecutive workweeks of time off for vacation - and if you for example become sick a week into your vacation and a doctor certifies such, you get those days back. Yes, that is because vacation is determined to be for relaxation and you cannot do that when you are sick, duh.
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Feb 1, 2019 20:49
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My first programmer job in Germany came with a notice period of three months to the end of my last quarter. Seemed fair at the time as I accepted an offer at another place pretty much right in the lead-up to one of the bigger deadlines, so staying around for another few weeks before I took the rest of my vacation let me feel a bit less bad about abandoning the team.
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Feb 1, 2019 21:06
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Keetron posted:Yes, that is because vacation is determined to be for relaxation and you cannot do that when you are sick, duh. Yeah, it's inconceivable to the American worker. All employees at my company receive the legally mandated 25 workdays, not calendar days, of vacation in the year, and the company tosses an extra 5 as a benefit. I could have worked for 20 years at my old Fortune 500 and only been accruing like 20 days per year.
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Feb 1, 2019 21:51
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Cats! The dev team is cats and I've been herding them all day! I'm doing code reviews/processing pull requests. So far I've dealt with: 1) Failing tests 2) Bugfixes without tests written to exercise the bug 3) Me pointing out a failing test, the dev fixing the test (it was a mistake in the test), and having the same test fail a different assert two lines down which means he didn't run the test after he changed it (!) 4) Code that doesn't build (!!) 5) Not one PR has the required information in it Changes and deployments in this codebase are ridiculously painful, the procedures we have in place make it less so, but only if people follow them! Argh!
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Feb 2, 2019 00:50
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I get so so tired of explaining why *big story* cant be split up into smaller stories. If it could be split up more, it would be. I know we're supposed to do that. This is as small as it gets. gently caress off and stop wasting everyone's time
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Feb 2, 2019 01:35
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Rubellavator posted:I get so so tired of explaining why *big story* cant be split up into smaller stories. If it could be split up more, it would be. I know we're supposed to do that. This is as small as it gets. gently caress off and stop wasting everyone's time Look, you have to type 5 individual commands into a console. 5 commands can be equally distributed into 5 stories, and it'll look great with management. A week later... you're not closing enough stories. Let's do a retro at the end of the week mid-pi to figure out how you could be fudging stats better.
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Feb 2, 2019 03:31
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Che Delilas posted:Cats! The dev team is cats and I've been herding them all day! Those people aren't cats, those are people phoning it in. Any one of those things is cause to decline the PR. Become a tyrant - if it doesn't build at all, don't look at it. They are wasting your time.
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Feb 2, 2019 18:46
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We have a nice setup now where every PR is built and needs to pass all tests to get merged, in addition to having approvals. And we have pre commit hooks that runs all the tests. People still manage to submit PRs with broken code because they bypass the hooks but at least it’s obvious when they do it.
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Feb 2, 2019 19:03
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smackfu posted:We have a nice setup now where every PR is built and needs to pass all tests to get merged, in addition to having approvals. And we have pre commit hooks that runs all the tests. People still manage to submit PRs with broken code because they bypass the hooks but at least it’s obvious when they do it. How many times do you get to bypass the hooks before you’re fired?
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Feb 2, 2019 19:38
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Subjunctive posted:How many times do you get to bypass the hooks before you’re fired? If I had any power...
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Feb 2, 2019 20:06
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Subjunctive posted:How many times do you get to bypass the hooks before you’re fired? i think if you're motivated enough to continually try to bypass the hooks, you automatically get certified as a scrum master. we should make it so you skip gated checkin, it automatically buys you one of those certificates in the person's name.
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Feb 2, 2019 20:08
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Clanpot Shake posted:Those people aren't cats, those are people phoning it in. Any one of those things is cause to decline the PR. Become a tyrant - if it doesn't build at all, don't look at it. They are wasting your time. Yeah, I've tried to handle these individually, but our deployments are heavy enough that there's quite a backlog and there's no way I'm continuing in that vein. On monday I'm going to bring it up in stand-up and I'm going to have a disappointed tone of voice when I do. smackfu posted:We have a nice setup now where every PR is built and needs to pass all tests to get merged, in addition to having approvals. And we have pre commit hooks that runs all the tests. People still manage to submit PRs with broken code because they bypass the hooks but at least it’s obvious when they do it. This is on my list of things to do - we're using a (very out of date) version of TeamCity with agents that were built I want to say two years ago and it's starting to fall hard onto its face. But of course, making a sane CI system is a lot of work, moreso when you're dealing with a big ball of mud, and, also of course, the other side of the building doesn't understand technical debt and is constantly exerting pressure to build new features. We're basically at the cliff edge I think; it's SO HARD to make changes to this system, and we're going to have to force the issue. Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 21:21
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Subjunctive posted:How many times do you get to bypass the hooks before you’re fired? Who allowed those hooks to be there in the first place? Find out, fire him/her. If it is the boss.... 
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Feb 2, 2019 21:33
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Mega Comrade posted:This does lead to some quite long probation periods though, at my current place its 6 months, but after that, unless you do continual severe infractions its pretty hard to fire you. You can't go to an unemployment tribunal now until you've been employed for two years (thanks, New Labour/Coalition). Before that they can fire you at the drop of a hat as long it's not eg explicitly 'because you're black', same as in the US, though at least you'll get a months notice not two weeks.
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Feb 2, 2019 21:42
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Has anyone ever gone from working the in US where you typically only have 2 Weeks Vacation with Public Holidays to Europe where you have 20+ days of mandatory vacation? I can't imagine what that'd be like, I almost wouldn't know what to do with that much free time.
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Feb 2, 2019 21:45
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Tab8715 posted:Has anyone ever gone from working the in US where you typically only have 2 Weeks Vacation with Public Holidays to Europe where you have 20+ days of mandatory vacation? Yep. Me (well i had 19 combined sick/vacation days a year at my last US job, if you're a programmer and they're only offering you 10, either negotiate or find a less lovely job). You get used to it real quick, turns out 
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Feb 2, 2019 21:49
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Keetron posted:Who allowed those hooks to be there in the first place? Find out, fire him/her. If it is the boss.... There are good reasons to bypass things in an emergency (someone deployed a slur and you need to get the rollback out without waiting for a test run, or the gate infrastructure is failing when it shouldn’t be), but emergencies shouldn’t be frequent and they should be each examined and publicized.
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Feb 2, 2019 22:20
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Tab8715 posted:Has anyone ever gone from working the in US where you typically only have 2 Weeks Vacation with Public Holidays to Europe where you have 20+ days of mandatory vacation? i get 20 days paid time off + 4 "floating holidays" + all national holidays off. It's company policy to make sure all twenty days are taken off. I get 10 sick days as well that are in a separate time bank. I work in the US. Maybe not all software companies in the US are poo poo with their PTO policies?
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Feb 2, 2019 22:24
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I work in the US and we went from 25 days general PTO to unlimited (this year, we'll see how management tries to abuse that). I typically spend mine on long weekends plus one longer vacation, that's a good balance for me.
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Feb 2, 2019 22:54
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What do you do with all that free time? And on another note, while I get 3 weeks actually using them is a entirely different story.
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Feb 2, 2019 22:56
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Tab8715 posted:Has anyone ever gone from working the in US where you typically only have 2 Weeks Vacation with Public Holidays to Europe where you have 20+ days of mandatory vacation? It's really, really weird. In 2017, my PTO amounted to a 10 workday vacation and a few scattered days around the holidays. In 2018 after becoming an expat a few months into the year I took I think 25 vacation days? This year I have 35 to burn. The general usage is to go traveling. South Europe seems to be trendy amongst the people I know. But in general, put in american terms, just imagine a 3-week-long Labor Day Weekend. It's a lot of getting together with friends and drinking somewhere. Che Delilas posted:I work in the US and we went from 25 days general PTO to unlimited (this year, we'll see how management tries to abuse that). I typically spend mine on long weekends plus one longer vacation, that's a good balance for me. I've always seen unlimited PTO as a trap. Like a big 'you just try and take more than the previous amount allotted!'
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Feb 2, 2019 23:06
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Statistically, an "unlimited" vacation policy usually ends up resulting in employees taking less time off than a traditional accrued vacation policy, for various reasons. I know there are companies - American ones, even! - experimenting with a system that combines the lack of a stated maximum of an unlimited PTO plan with mandatory annual minimums.
Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 23:40
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Also, unlimited means you don’t get any vacation pay when you leave.
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Feb 2, 2019 23:43
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Bongo Bill posted:Statistically, an "unlimited" vacation policy usually ends up resulting in employees taking less time off than a traditional accrued vacation policy, for various reasons. I know there are companies - American ones, even! - experimenting with a system that combines the lack of a stated maximum of an unlimited PTO plan with mandatory annual minimums. I got that and I make sure to take at least 35+ days per year so it actually feels like a benefit. But employees still need to take off at least the federal minimum of 25 days/year otherwise the company gets into legal trouble, so I don't know how it would result in overall less vacation days taken.
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Feb 3, 2019 00:11
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BabyFur Denny posted:I got that and I make sure to take at least 35+ days per year so it actually feels like a benefit. But employees still need to take off at least the federal minimum of 25 days/year otherwise the company gets into legal trouble, so I don't know how it would result in overall less vacation days taken. I assure you that employers in the US don’t (always?) get in trouble if people don’t take any vacation in a calendar year. E: you’re in Germany, where the federal minimum looks to be 20, but I always see it framed as a right. Can you point me st something about the employer being punished if the employee chooses to not take their vacation? That is an interesting provision! E2: this article summarized the ECJ as saying otherwise: quote:While there was no obligation on the part of the employer to require the employee to take vacation, the employer was however obliged to ensure – specifically and completely transparently – that the employee was actually in a position to take his paid annual leave by requesting – formally, if necessary – that he do so. (The context of the case is forfeiture of unused vacation time at the end of the calendar year.) Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 01:18
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BabyFur Denny posted:I got that and I make sure to take at least 35+ days per year so it actually feels like a benefit. But employees still need to take off at least the federal minimum of 25 days/year otherwise the company gets into legal trouble, so I don't know how it would result in overall less vacation days taken. Under unlimited vacation, there are weaker norms around how much time off you can request in practice. If I'm out on vacation more than everyone else, does that make me look bad? How much is "too much"? How much will my manager, who has to approve or reject every PTO request, think is "too much?" On paper, it sounds nice - it tells the employee there's never a situation where they'll "run out" of vacation days, it's flexible, it suggests that you'll be treated like a human - but in practice, even when it's implemented in good faith, it turns the process of taking a vacation into a series of opaque one-off negotiations. This creates uncertainty that some employees will just prefer to avoid dealing with, and naturally ends up shifting the balance in favor of the more powerful party, the employer.
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Feb 3, 2019 01:23
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I worked at an unlimited-vacation place. My problem was there was no guidance to eng managers from above, about what was an “appropriate” amount or a suggested minimum. I hired in under a boss who said he wanted everyone taking 25 days a year and enforced it. Then I got reorged under a different team where the boss didn’t outright SAY “nobody take vacation,” but he imposed rules about required team coverage such that you’d feel like you were screwing your colleagues if you took a lot of time off. I took like 25-28 days off per year before the reorg. In the 9 months post-reorg (before I said to hell with this and quit) I managed to eke out 7 days.
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Feb 3, 2019 02:34
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Unlimited vacation time is just a more recent beancounter trick to gently caress people over. Unless the policy also includes a mandatory minimum of vacation days spent in a year.
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Feb 3, 2019 02:44
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Tab8715 posted:What do you do with all that free time? Well when I take a long weekend it's generally because I've had a bad time at work (lots of thrash, a difficult problem that's plaguing me, managers being stupid), I've been having trouble sleeping, or I just feel like I need more of a break. Given that, I tend to use the extra time for pure relaxation. I play games, I read, I chill. Longer vacations I'm usually traveling to visit family. Cuntpunch posted:I've always seen unlimited PTO as a trap. Like a big 'you just try and take more than the previous amount allotted!' I was (and am) extremely wary of the change when they made it. They also decided it would be cool and good to not pay out anything that people had saved up when they made the change, which is some bullshit that didn't really affect me at the time (because I make sure to take what I'm owed, and if that leaves us severely understaffed it's because WE'RE ALREADY UNDERSTAFFED AND THEY CAN loving HIRE MORE PEOPLE). If I weren't going to quit within the next couple months I'd make sure to take at least as much as I was entitled to before. As the situation stands, it's just less bookkeeping for me when I take days off to interview. Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 02:51
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The bean counters like it just because it means less beans to count. If you accrue vacation days, then they are either owed or due when you leave the job and it’s a lot of effort to keep track from the payroll side. Plus you say that people can’t carryover but then someone if forced to work and has to carry over and it’s a mess.
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Feb 3, 2019 02:53
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Only in the US are we so broke brained about work/life balance that we can't imagine what we'd do with more than like 2 weeks of PTO  Travel, play video games and smoke weed, build cool poo poo in your home lab or code a side project to prepare for that next promotion or job move if you can't stop thinking about work. Volunteer for a cause you believe in. When my kids are elementary school age I'm sure I'll burn a couple weeks during the summer to avoid having to pay so much for day camps or whatever. Do home improvements projects. Take your significant other to the beach.My (US) company is pretty generous with vacation, but you're not allowed to carry any over to the next year. You are strongly encouraged to use it all. You are allowed to go negative if you haven't accrued enough yet early in the year, with the caveat that negative time is withheld from your final paycheck if you leave. It seems like a reasonable balance between satisfying the bean counters and still giving employees enough time off. There's a separate pool of sick time that does carry over, to some cap. Docjowles fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 03:03
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That sounds pretty decent for a capitalist hellhole 
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Feb 3, 2019 03:06
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We do 21 days of vacation with no carryover, which caused a problem when someone had to push their vacation trip back from Dec to Jan because of a friend’s illness. I just told them to leave it on the books in December and take the time undocumented in January, but we need some more flexibility in the system than that as we grow. We’ll probably do some first-two-months thing, but I’m wondering about other options.
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Feb 3, 2019 03:13
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I've had pretty good luck with "unlimited" PTO so far. I always ask the hiring manager about it in the interview, and the correct answer (that I get fairly often) is, "I take <some number over 20> days off a year, and I check at least once a quarter to make sure all my engineers are taking some time off."
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Feb 3, 2019 03:35
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I think what happens in the US is not that dissimilar from what happens frequently in Japan and Korea - the only other places that are even worse for work-life balance on average. Your personal lives bleed over into work and your "work" only happens for so long anyway that it's just a lot of busywork or just pretending you're busy. Meanwhile, most of the Europeans I've worked with seemed to be much better at compressing their work into a 6-7 hour work day and were thus much more effective than myself on average. For example, the three Germans I've worked with think if you have to routinely work 50 hours a week to finish your tasks either you're incompetent / poorly trained or skilled or that something is seriously wrong with your management to force such a schedule all the time (everyone understands work has deadlines and things can get hectic). If I had an extra week or two of vacation in the US I'd actually take a vacation for once in my life. I've historically wound up delaying personal projects to the holidays and I usually squander 10 days / year on three day weekends or interviewing or banking them to cash out when I quit jobs. So the week might be spent on having an actual holiday week for once. I simply don't know what a week straight of vacation is like as a result.
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Feb 3, 2019 03:52
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necrobobsledder posted:Your personal lives bleed over into work and your "work" only happens for so long anyway that it's just a lot of busywork or just pretending you're busy. Meanwhile, most of the Europeans I've worked with seemed to be much better at compressing their work into a 6-7 hour work day and were thus much more effective than myself on average. Absolutely this. Part of the reason I love working full-time remote is because I'm finally able to work on breaking this habit. There's no reason to spend unproductive hours dicking around with email or Jira (because my brain is too mush to do anything else) because I "have to" work until 5. I set actual goals for my week (finish X feature, squash N bugs) and when I'm finished I get to go about my life. Turns out, when I have more free time, I have time to actually do healthy things like go to the gym and get a decent amount of sleep.
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Feb 3, 2019 04:06
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Tab8715 posted:Has anyone ever gone from working the in US where you typically only have 2 Weeks Vacation with Public Holidays to Europe where you have 20+ days of mandatory vacation? I can't imagine why anyone would work in the US for a company with 2 weeks vacation. I think the least I've ever had was 4 weeks + 10 public holidays + week between christmas and new years. Companies that are actually 10 vacation days are usually really regressive in many ways.
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Feb 3, 2019 04:13
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NZ seems like a socialist paradise compared to 
quote:If an employee works on a public holiday they must be paid for their hours worked at the rate of at least time and a half. If the day is an otherwise working day for them, they will also be entitled to a paid alternative holiday This stuff is just the legal minimums, if you work in a competitive industry or just have a good employer, they offer more on top to sweeten the deal.
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Feb 3, 2019 04:19
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Xik posted:NZ seems like a socialist paradise compared to It's a shame our public holidays are so clustered around Christmas/New Year though. Plus 5 days of sick leave isn't enough for people with kids or chronic health problems.
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Feb 3, 2019 05:15
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