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Squalid posted:This article sounds bad for Maduro. I wouldn't call it particularly great for anyone in Venezuela, but yeah. This is going to be huge for people who aren't already starving or crippled by inflation, i.e. Maduro and the military.
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Feb 1, 2019 18:15
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Typo posted:US tried this exact thing by dropping food into africa and stuff in the 1990s what happened was the governments just takes all the food using the military and dole it out to their own supporters while letting everyone else starve Drop so much they can't do that  In all seriousness if they did that I think you'd get a lot more people behind the "well alright intervene then" train.
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Feb 1, 2019 18:58
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That doesn't solve the issue of violating Venezuela's sovereignty in a way worse than supporting a legal challenger to the regime. As well as the response if said efforts were aggressively responded to which likely would end up with armed intervention into Venezuela with how blood thirsty the Trump base is.
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Feb 1, 2019 19:02
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ChaseSP posted:That doesn't solve the issue of violating Venezuela's sovereignty in a way worse than supporting a legal challenger to the regime. As well as the response if said efforts were aggressively responded to which likely would end up with armed intervention into Venezuela with how blood thirsty the Trump base is. I think a reasonable observation is that Maduro has violated the sovereignty of Venezuela's people several orders of magnitude more than anyone involved. Wrecking the Chavez-era Constitution, stacking the Supreme Court, ignoring the National Assembly, creating a fraudulent Constituent Assembly, staging unconstitutional elections, and creating conditions hostile to the health, welfare and continued existence of the vast majority of the people.
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Feb 1, 2019 19:19
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COMRADES posted:Drop so much they can't do that if you are dropping what amounts to free money from the air you'll find no shortage of government guys with guns to take them E: nm didn't realize you were jking
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Feb 1, 2019 19:47
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Rust Martialis posted:I think a reasonable observation is that Maduro has violated the sovereignty of Venezuela's people several orders of magnitude more than anyone involved. Well there are people not convinced of this so I'm putting it in an example clear to them, I'm not saying the US is violating Venezuela's sovereignty yet.
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Feb 1, 2019 19:48
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If you are in Venezuela, you will need to take precautions against running out of fuel in the very near future. You probably already know this of course, but if things seem bad now they are going to quickly get worse: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/venezuela-government-threatens-board-tanker-fuel-discharged-sources-200937248--finance.html quote:PUNTO FIJO, Venezuela/HOUSTON (Reuters) - Venezuela is ramping up pressure on fuel suppliers to deliver cargoes to its state-run oil firm even if payment issues have not been sorted amid U.S. sanctions, while European clients put scheduled export shipments on hold.
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Feb 1, 2019 20:34
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Rust Martialis posted:Found an actual 2018 UN report on human rights in Venezuela. Oddly the other report by the one rapporteur doesn't mention any of this. It is cool and good that you think a plan to make all this worse is the way to go.
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Feb 1, 2019 23:01
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Judakel posted:It is cool and good that you think a plan to make all this worse is the way to go. No, I want Maduro to resign, not stay.
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Feb 1, 2019 23:25
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Rust Martialis posted:No, I want Maduro to resign, not stay. Loo you actually think this is clever. "A right wing CIA approved government will be great for venezuela."
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Feb 2, 2019 00:03
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Judakel posted:Loo you actually think this is clever. "A right wing CIA approved government will be great for venezuela." I know you aren't going to answer this question because none of you ever really do, but: How is the opposition led by Guiado right-wing? How is Maduro's dictatorship left wing? Because he says that they are? edit: clarity
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Feb 2, 2019 00:07
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Judakel posted:Loo you actually think this is clever. "A right wing CIA approved government will be great for venezuela." Would you care to name this supposed right wing government?
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Feb 2, 2019 00:09
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Giggle Goose posted:I know you aren't going to answer this question because none of you ever really do, but: How is the opposition led by Guiado right-wing? How is Maduro's dictatorship left wing? Because he says that they are? The opposition was founded by a right wing fundie and removed a picture of bolivar because it wasn't white enough. Lol it is social fascism. Also lol fishmech
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Feb 2, 2019 00:20
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Judakel posted:The opposition was founded by a right wing fundie and removed a picture of bolivar because it wasn't white enough. Lol it is social fascism. What? Are you ok?
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Feb 2, 2019 00:21
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Judakel posted:The opposition was founded by a right wing fundie and removed a picture of bolivar because it wasn't white enough. Lol it is social fascism. You could have just said "I, Judakel, was making it up" or "I, Judakel, think an entirely different group will be flown in to replace the current Venezuela opposition" dude. Since you have no interest in talking about any people who are actually involved.
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Feb 2, 2019 00:25
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fishmech posted:You could have just said "I, Judakel, was making it up" or "I, Judakel, think an entirely different group will be flown in to replace the current Venezuela opposition" dude. Since you have no interest in talking about any people who are actually involved. Lol fishmech (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 2, 2019 00:28
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I read the Wikipedia page on Venezuela, let me tell you lot all about it.
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Feb 2, 2019 00:29
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Giggle Goose posted:I know you aren't going to answer this question because none of you ever really do, but: How is the opposition led by Guiado right-wing? How is Maduro's dictatorship left wing? Because he says that they are? because Guiado or whoever the imperialists end up installing in his stead, would follow or be forced to do whatever foreign (american) holders of venezuelan debt see as necessary to get their money from the venezuelan people
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Feb 2, 2019 00:33
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fishmech posted:You could have just said "I, Judakel, was making it up" or "I, Judakel, think an entirely different group will be flown in to replace the current Venezuela opposition" dude. err... america does that on the loving reg?
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Feb 2, 2019 00:34
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So you aren't talking about the actual current political situation and instead what you think will happen in your head while presenting it as the current situation. Got it.
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Feb 2, 2019 00:38
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ChaseSP posted:So you aren't talking about the actual current political situation and instead what you think will happen in your head while presenting it as the current situation. Got it. Jesus cristo callate
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Feb 2, 2019 00:40
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what
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Feb 2, 2019 00:41
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im looking into the future, wondering whats gonna happen, while the real smart guys are looking at the the FACTS and using REASON and LOGIC to talk about the ACTUAL REAL THINGGS THAT EXIST
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Feb 2, 2019 00:42
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"We will institute a school curriculum that praises capitalism and private industry" D&D: yeah but are they right wing though.
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Feb 2, 2019 00:46
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but yeah, the main reason why the capitalist imperialists on wall street are supporting a Venezuelan invasion is to get those sweet debt bond interest payments back up and running again, and that money is going to get extracted from the Venezuelan people no matter who gets put in power. if they succeed in getting Maduro ousted, that is
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Feb 2, 2019 00:46
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https://twitter.com/vp/status/1091434587727716352?s=21
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Feb 2, 2019 01:07
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mike pence sucks so bad while the federal shutdown was going on for longer than a month and hundreds of thousands of workers were not getting paid and SNAP benefits were drying up and people weren't sure if they were going to be able to keep their home or have food the next month this is what pence was sitting up in his room dreaming up as his big reagan moment Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 01:08
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Kurnugia posted:because Guiado or whoever the imperialists end up installing in his stead, would follow or be forced to do whatever foreign (american) holders of venezuelan debt see as necessary to get their money from the venezuelan people Do you really think Maduro is free to default on foreign debt if he pleases? He is no more free of the influence of American and European capital than a replacement would be. Actually if a new President would stop ruining the economy with idiotic policies they'd probably be more independent, if only because they wouldn't have to rack up such large external debts. 
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Feb 2, 2019 01:24
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Maduro is literally one of the most incompetent rulers of a country in modern history, and unless they end up electing hitler or stalin I don't see how the citizens of Venezuela end up in a worse position then they are now, because right now they have some of the worst hunger and violence in the world in a country that was prosperous only 10 years ago. This guy's incompetence and corruption has lead to the starving of his people. Any change is good at this point. He hosed over loving corn production so it just dropped 85% in 3 years because he didnt order enough seeds. Keeping him in office is a death sentence to the good people of the country. You could literally get AirBud the basketball playing dog in power and he would cause less harm through negligence or fraud. There is a reason why there are mass protests. Its not just ex-Venezuelans posting on twitter. Its the people starving in country. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 01:45
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To clear up some points: 1. It is clear at this point that a large amount of Venezuela's issues were coupled with its inflexible pricing and currency exchange system which essentially sapped state revenue with marginal benefit. The decline in oil prices around 2015 put even more of a burden on the budget but it the system was an issue before them (that said the Bolivar only really majorly devalued after Chavez was incapacitated). 2. Arguably, Guiado comes from Venezuela's traditional right-wing even the party he is apart of is positioned as a centrist one. 3. If Maduro and the PSUV is ousted peacefully, life in Venezuela probably would improve even under Washington Census-style policy. However, this would largely be based on Venezuela essentially living off of IMF loans and dollarization. It isn't that those policies aren't going to lead to their own issues but rather the current system is so mismanaged it will be a large relative improvement. If the result is violence, obviously things will get worse. 4. It remains to be seen how much Russia and Chinese exposure actually is at this point considering the type of interest they have been pulling and how collateralized their loans are. One thing Russia and China can always simply refused to acknowledge haircuts and wait for when the next government is vulnerable to press their advantage. 5. Maduro may still have enough resources to eek out survival for a while, it is simply going to be mean the next government will be even more reliant on the IMF, in particular, to fund itself as the last reserves are used up. As Washington tightens its grip, Maduro and the PSUV will be forced to sell-off every useful asset the country has left.
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Feb 2, 2019 01:52
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Squalid posted:Do you really think Maduro is free to default on foreign debt if he pleases? yes, i do. i most certainly and definately believe in the right of a nation or an individual to default on their debts. it is called bankruptcy, and you using that as a cause for foreign invasion makes we want to throw up. gently caress off with that imperialist poo poo zapplez posted:Maduro is literally one of the most incompetent rulers of a country in modern history, and unless they end up electing hitler or stalin I don't see how the citizens of Venezuela end up in a worse position then they are now, because right now they have some of the worst hunger and violence in the world in a country that was prosperous only 10 years ago. the people who were prosperous 10 years ago are indeed the ones looking to overthrow Maduro, but i don't think they're the ones starving under imperialist blockade. the blockade which is also the reason why venezuela couldn't get seed grain btw. maduro might well be a fat incompetent dildo, but that doesn't make american foreign interventions good. so far, imperialist interventions in latin america have resulted in death, destruction and establishment of regimes like the ones Chavez overthrew. however could you figure them doing a pinochet on venezuela would get you to a good place i cannot fathom, but i suspect it has something to do with bond rates
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Feb 2, 2019 02:15
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Kurnugia posted:the blockade which is also the reason why venezuela couldn't get seed grain btw. this doesn't get more true through repeating it
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Feb 2, 2019 02:29
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Kurnugia posted:yes, i do. i most certainly and definately believe in the right of a nation or an individual to default on their debts. it is called bankruptcy, and you using that as a cause for foreign invasion makes we want to throw up. gently caress off with that imperialist poo poo I really don't think you have an idea of what any of the numbers are really like. Its not a small minority that wants Maduro out. It wasn't a small minority that were doing well 10 years ago. Its not a small minority that is starving now. These are things that most people experienced. Its a big deal. Its not small fractions. The country has had near infinite inflation, coupled with shocking increases in hunger and violence. Its affecting everyone. You can't just blame everything on the USA. Its not like they would be living in this communist paradise if it wasnt for the USA meddling in their poo poo. Its Maduro that either is so retarded or arrogant he has destroyed his country, or he is just so corrupt he ruined it. He isn't some bus driving folk hero just doing whats best for his citizens. He is a thief or an idiot, or probably both. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 02:35
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Kurnugia posted:err... america does that on the loving reg? Please cite your evidence that this is happening in Venezuela. Kurnugia posted:
Please cite the "blockade" that you're claiming has existed for many years to back up "they couldn't buy seed grain because of the blockade".
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Feb 2, 2019 02:38
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zapplez posted:I really don't think you have an idea of what any of the numbers are really like. Its not a small minority that wants Maduro out. It wasn't a small minority that were doing well 10 years ago. Its not a small minority that is starving now. These are things that most people experienced. Its a big deal. Its not small fractions. The country has had near infinite inflation, coupled with shocking increases in hunger and violence. Its affecting everyone. And it'll get worse for everyone once the US takes over. That's the whole point of the blockade, to make things miserable enough for enough many people to give justification for a coup, after which lifting the blockade will just magically make things get better again. almost as if it was the blockade that was the cause of the misery and shortages of all those traded goods, not maduro... GreyjoyBastard posted:this doesn't get more true through repeating it trade embargoes are usually the cause of shortages and price inflation. if you wanna argue this isn't true in the case of venezuela, go right ahead
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Feb 2, 2019 02:42
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zapplez posted:You can't just blame everything on the USA. Its not like they would be living in this communist paradise if it wasnt for the USA meddling in their poo poo. Its Maduro that either is so retarded or arrogant he has destroyed his country, or he is just so corrupt he ruined it. He isn't some bus driving folk hero just doing whats best for his citizens. He is a thief or an idiot, or probably both. which doesn't make the US embargoes go away either. maduro might be an idiot, i don't really care. the US doesn't either, since what they're looking for isn't to oust maduro, but to oust the socialists currently in power in venezuela. the US wouldn't lift the blockades if maduro got shot in the dick and they elected bernie to replace him. the point and reason of the blockade is to cause enough misery in venezuela that a coup would look like an improvement. which isn't exactly doing whats best for the venezuelan citizens either...
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Feb 2, 2019 02:50
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Kurnugia posted:And it'll get worse for everyone once the US takes over. That's the whole point of the blockade, to make things miserable enough for enough many people to give justification for a coup, after which lifting the blockade will just magically make things get better again. almost as if it was the blockade that was the cause of the misery and shortages of all those traded goods, not maduro... What the hell trade embargo are you talking about?
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Feb 2, 2019 02:51
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Giggle Goose posted:What the hell trade embargo are you talking about? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargoes
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Feb 2, 2019 02:52
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Kurnugia posted:trade embargoes are usually the cause of shortages and price inflation. if you wanna argue this isn't true in the case of venezuela, go right ahead The inflationary crisis predated any sanctions on anyone in the country by several years.
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Feb 2, 2019 02:53
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The inflationary crisis predated any sanctions on anyone in the country by several years. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/world/americas/obama-freezes-assets-of-seven-venezuelan-officials.html i mean i can keep writing these things into google for you if you want me to but i don't know how thats going to advance the discussion
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Feb 2, 2019 02:55
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