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I think it's okay, even good, to be suspicious of Guaido's actions, motivations and sources of support, and through doing so, make sure he is held to the appropriate standard: that he must continue to do what is reasonable to restore Venezuela's constitutional democracy. What's not okay is writing him off entirely at this point and sitting on our hands as we wait for the second coming of Christ to descend from the heavens and personally remove Maduro from power. Whether it's Guaido or someone else, we have to accept that we'll probably never get the clean, perfect leader to confront the PSUV and remove them from power without any external support from sources we might prefer stayed the gently caress out of the situation. Guaido seems, at this point, at least good enough that all those who are opposed to Maduro and Chavismo should work with him, criticizing where necessary and supporting where possible, to restore a free and democratic Venezuela.
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Feb 2, 2019 14:02
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Discendo Vox posted:Please find some sort of supporting evidence for the “right wing coup” framing. I don't know what else you'd call a coup with the support of the US and Brazil when the leader openly admits that one of his goals is the privatization of industry?
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Feb 2, 2019 14:03
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A Typical Goon posted:I don't know what else you'd call a coup with the support of the US and Brazil when the leader openly admits that one of his goals is the privatization of industry? Did you get that last bit from that idiot on Reddit? Because way too many people in this thread have been treating him as a credible source.
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Feb 2, 2019 14:07
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Darth Walrus posted:Did you get that last bit from that idiot on Reddit? Because way too many people in this thread have been treating him as a credible source. What? No. It's from Guiado's party policy, the original which has been posted multiple times in this thread?
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Feb 2, 2019 14:09
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Darth Walrus posted:Since the quality of English-language reporting around Venezuela is so poo poo, can we at least have some indicator that y'all have vetted your sources a little when you post? What is your qualification for this, what counts as vetting? Max Blumenthal is a respected and credited journalist with a long career.
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Feb 2, 2019 14:13
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GoLambo posted:What is your qualification for this, what counts as vetting? Max Blumenthal is a respected and credited journalist with a long career. well he's an anti semite for starters
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Feb 2, 2019 14:21
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Mnoba posted:well he's an anti semite for starters Death to the apartheid state of Israel. But also lol way to jump right to the classic ring wing smear of critical of israel = anti-semite. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 2, 2019 14:31
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GoLambo posted:What is your qualification for this, what counts as vetting? Max Blumenthal is a respected and credited journalist with a long career. He's also got some things pretty spectacularly wrong, like when he bought into White Helmets conspiracy theories in Syria. In this article, he seems to be uncritically citing a whole bunch of sources we already know to be biased, like Venezuelanalysis, leading me to wonder how much of his acclaimed journalistic skills he's actually bothered to deploy here. I mean, all it would take is an addition like 'Venezuelanalysis, a non-profit news site that was established with Venezuelan government funding and technical support, and is currently hosted by the pro-government site Aporrea.org, says that...'
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Feb 2, 2019 14:34
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GoLambo posted:https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/01/29/the-making-of-juan-guaido-how-the-us-regime-change-laboratory-created-venezuelas-coup-leader/ quote:In 2009, the Generation 2007 youth activists staged their most provocative demonstration yet, dropping their pants on public roads...
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Feb 2, 2019 14:36
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A Typical Goon posted:I don't know what else you'd call a coup with the support of the US and Brazil when the leader openly admits that one of his goals is the privatization of industry? Oh, it’s this line again. Wonderful. Show me what Guaidó wants to do with respect to privatising PDVSA and how it differs from concessions granted by the Maduro government this day Please explain how tweets are more relevant in assessing political alignment than $500k gifts given for political inaugurations
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Feb 2, 2019 14:41
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Furia posted:Oh, it’s this line again. Wonderful. Actually I think it's likely the remark applies to de-nationalizing some of the companies that Maduro took over over the years, every time there was another shortage of something they would inevitably claim Company X was hoarding or betraying the people, etc. and then seize it. Said company would then basically be looted and collapse. https://venezuelanalysis.com/tag/nationalization https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article138402248.html Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 14:48
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Darth Walrus posted:He's also got some things pretty spectacularly wrong, like when he bought into White Helmets conspiracy theories in Syria. In this article, he seems to be uncritically citing a whole bunch of sources we already know to be biased, like Venezuelanalysis, leading me to wonder how much of his acclaimed journalistic skills he's actually bothered to deploy here. I mean, all it would take is an addition like 'Venezuelanalysis, a non-profit news site that was established with Venezuelan government funding and technical support, and is currently hosted by the pro-government site Aporrea.org, says that...' He's right about the White Helmets though. So your argument is that your preferred bias in who is a trustworthy source is better than his. Got it. I mean it's not like state funded news is loving rare in this world what with the BBC to NPR and a ton of other sources that are considered reputable. Maybe evidence isn't what you're after, but rather evidence that matches with your preconceived notions of what's correct?
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Feb 2, 2019 14:55
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What are white helmets and what does it matter to Venezuela?
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Feb 2, 2019 15:09
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GoLambo posted:Death to the apartheid state of Israel. Holy poo poo. Take this trash to another thread. This is Venezuela discussion.
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Feb 2, 2019 15:15
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zapplez posted:Holy poo poo. Take this trash to another thread. This is Venezuela discussion. They sure do come in waves don't they.
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Feb 2, 2019 15:23
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The white helmets are an organization that deal with rescue and repair services in parts of Syria that are rebel controlled. The conspiracy theories about them range from them being secret Al Qaeda members to being undercover black operatives that stage chemical and biological attacks in order to hurt Assad or Russian troops in the region, or openly operating as mercenaries for the rebel militias / Saudi Arabia / ISIS. It's a popular conspiracy among the alt-right as well; cernovich and Spencer both called them operatives for Israel that were staging these things to get the US involved in the region. Trump cut off funding for them back in May of last year but eventually folded and started funding them again in July.
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Feb 2, 2019 15:34
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Grapplejack posted:The white helmets are an organization that deal with rescue and repair services in parts of Syria that are rebel controlled. The conspiracy theories about them range from them being secret Al Qaeda members to being undercover black operatives that stage chemical and biological attacks in order to hurt Assad or Russian troops in the region, or openly operating as mercenaries for the rebel militias / Saudi Arabia / ISIS. It's a popular conspiracy among the alt-right as well; cernovich and Spencer both called them operatives for Israel that were staging these things to get the US involved in the region. Trump cut off funding for them back in May of last year but eventually folded and started funding them again in July. drat that sounds pretty crazy. Thankfully Max Blumenthal never said anything like that and only insisted they had pro interventionist western backing. Kinda seems to be his MO if you look into his reporting, its a big thing he cares about. zapplez posted:Holy poo poo. Take this trash to another thread. This is Venezuela discussion. I'm responding to a dumb character assassination snipe what the gently caress do you want?
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Feb 2, 2019 15:49
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GoLambo posted:drat that sounds pretty crazy. Thankfully Max Blumenthal never said anything like that and only insisted they had pro interventionist western backing. Kinda seems to be his MO if you look into his reporting, its a big thing he cares about. Yeah man the conspiracy well runs deep. He's probably right though; if you're pro-rebel the white helmets help clean up the back lines and build support in those areas, so it makes sense to back them for strategic reasons if you're in that camp.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:00
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Discendo Vox posted:Please find some sort of supporting evidence for the “right wing coup” framing. PT6A posted:I think it's okay, even good, to be suspicious of Guaido's actions, motivations and sources of support, and through doing so, make sure he is held to the appropriate standard: that he must continue to do what is reasonable to restore Venezuela's constitutional democracy. What's not okay is writing him off entirely at this point and sitting on our hands as we wait for the second coming of Christ to descend from the heavens and personally remove Maduro from power. lol
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Feb 2, 2019 16:02
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There are protests happening in the country today. The biggest since January 23, when this whole thing started to unfold. They're just starting now. Here's a couple of shots from Caracas earlier this morning: https://twitter.com/EfectoCocuyo/status/1091710189483581441 https://twitter.com/sumariumcom/status/1091708579613163521 https://twitter.com/apichardob/status/1091704163732471808 Protesters are setting off from rally points across the city and meeting at a place in Las Mercedes. I'm guessing there will be a big rally there, and that Guaido will probably speak. We also had a high-ranking defection from the regime this morning from Air Force Division General Estéban Yánez Rodríguez. Yanez recognizes Guaido as president, and says that "90% of the National Bolivarian Armed forces do not support the dictator, they support the people of Venezuela". Here's his video: https://twitter.com/Gbastidas/status/1091673877644787712 Rodriguez is the Director of Strategic Planning at the Air Force High Command, as his profile page on the Air Force page confirms (archived here for when they remove him from the page). EDIT: This is pretty big. National Bolivarian Police officers pulling back from a protest. You can see one of the officers hugging a protester. The man recording says, "Excellent, brothers, excellent!" https://twitter.com/ElyangelicaNews/status/1091713696609509377 Let me clarify: I say "pretty big" because it's rare to see officers withdrawing from a protest like this. It's hard to tell from the video if the officers decided en masse to disobey orders to remain at the protest, or if they were ordered to pull back. The fact that they seem to be casually turning around and walking away from the protester makes me think that the former is more likely. This video also makes me think of the fact that, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the FAES is doing a lot of the repression this time around (as opposed to rank-and-file National Bolivarian Police, which is who you see in this video). I wonder if that's because the leadership thinks that they can't rely on the rank-and-file anymore. EDIT 2: Another shot of the police in Barquisimeto withdrawing. You don't hear anyone in the video says, but El Pitazo (which is a very reliable news source) says that the protesters asked the police to withdraw, to which "a National Bolivarian Police officer" allegedly replied: "I'd rather withdraw my men than repress the people": https://twitter.com/ElPitazoTV/status/1091703928658554880 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 16:03
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Oh boy, good to see some police not attacking the protesters for once. Stay safe anyway, venegoons.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:26
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This seems encouraging. Hopefully the police continue to do the right thing and any question of US military intervention becomes a moot point.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:43
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PT6A posted:This seems encouraging. Hopefully the police continue to do the right thing and any question of US military intervention becomes a moot point. Let us pray the Venezuelan people will coup themselves and US help in establishing a responsible government of REASON and LOGIC, will be unnecessary
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Feb 2, 2019 16:47
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When the people of a country "coup themselves," we have a special word for it: democracy.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:58
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Yeah how dare us brown people take a stand for ourselves, right? Please keep enlightening us, white saviors.
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Feb 2, 2019 17:01
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So it seems like its happening, now. The one thing Maduro still had keeping him there was the armed forces support. Without that, he is a dead man walking
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Feb 2, 2019 17:06
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PT6A posted:When the people of a country "coup themselves," we have a special word for it: democracy. Even when it's foreign backed (and every government shift is to some degree or another anyways - whether a coup, civil war, or bog standard lawful transition/election) it's still people "couping themselves". Coups without lots of local support tend to be failed coups unless you've got something like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan rolling in behind it. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 17:07
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Ah yes, the famous French Coup
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Feb 2, 2019 17:07
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I too remember the declaration of right wing coup, the rightwing fascistary war and the coupstitutional conventions.
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Feb 2, 2019 17:26
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Elias_Maluco posted:So it seems like its happening, now. The one thing Maduro still had keeping him there was the armed forces support. Without that, he is a dead man walking It's still too early to say, but it does feel like things may unwind soon. If they don't, that guy who released the video disavowing Maduro and the guards who refused to repress protestors are going to wind up in jail getting tortured.
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Feb 2, 2019 17:27
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Discendo Vox posted:I too remember the declaration of right wing coup, the rightwing fascistary war and the coupstitutional conventions. Oh yeah, this isn't a coup going on in Venezuela - that would imply Maduro has any legitimacy and he sure as poo poo doesn't.
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Feb 2, 2019 17:42
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Well, if it happens without civil war or USA troops, is gonna be better than I expected it could be
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Feb 2, 2019 17:45
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Elias_Maluco posted:Well, if it happens without civil war or USA troops, is gonna be better than I expected it could be That's kind of what most, or even all of us, who support the opposition and a change of government were saying was the preferred outcome and the one most likely to fell Maduro. Public support for the opposition is much greater than for the government at the moment, and really the PSUV is dependent on the military and the police to keep power, with pressure from the people in the form of demonstrations and now also foreign pressure in the form of harsher economic sanctions and international recognition of the current opposition leader as the legitimate leader of Venezuela, this may be enough to make the government's support from the security apparatus disappear. I'd say it's too early yet to tell if this is though. I'd say both a US invasion and a general civil war (the Syrian analogy often pulled up is not a good one I believe, Venezuela is very far from being as ethnically and relgiously fractured as Syria and the opposition simply has way too much public support) are kind of unlikely, especially if the regime's military and police support evaporates, I don't know if the collectivos are strong enough, or willing, on their own to support the regime and start a civil war if things truly go south, and as far as I've been given to understand alot of those are nowadays more like gangsters and drug traffickers who are occasionally employed in the business of beating demonstrators or strike busting. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 18:11
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Oh, no doubt about it. I was just under the impression that the military would support him to the end, from everything Ive read here and everywhere else. From the start what it seemed to me was that Maduro would last as long as the military supported him Any confirmation if what he says is true (that 90% of the military is against maduro)?
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Feb 2, 2019 18:21
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Elias_Maluco posted:Oh, no doubt about it. I was just under the impression that the military would support him to the end, from everything Ive read here and everywhere else Not that I’m aware of. Hell, I don’t even see it as being plausible except for rank and file Don’t want to take him at his word and it’s all there is at the moment
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Feb 2, 2019 18:23
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I think the thread just broke. It's doing that thing where it's showing a new post and it won't show. Fun times. Furia posted:Not that I’m aware of. Hell, I don’t even see it as being plausible except for rank and file That's pretty significant though. It means they might be severely limited in what they can use the military for, it might be way too risky to send them to deal with demonstrations if significant numbers of the rank and file might be sympathetic towards the demonstrators. Even the guys who are kind of okay with the current situation of getting enough food and medicine for them and their families might get pushed over the edge if they actually are asked to beat and/or shoot protesters and not just jog around with Maduro in vidoes. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 18:24
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Randarkman posted:I think the thread just broke. It's doing that thing where it's showing a new post and it won't show. You just fixed it. Apparently it’s what happens when someone deletes a post but I can’t remember where I read that. Another thread with the same problem probably
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Feb 2, 2019 18:25
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Elias_Maluco posted:Oh, no doubt about it. I was just under the impression that the military would support him to the end, from everything Ive read here and everywhere else. From the start what it seemed to me was that Maduro would last as long as the military supported him That's kind of impossible to gauge. The problem is, the military is what's keeping Maduro in power but at the same time, there's a lot of fear that soldiers might try to overthrow him because of how much discontent there is. In practice, that means that everyone needs to appear to support the government outwardly unless they want to be 'taken in for questioning' and have their families detained as well. I don't doubt there's significant discontent within the lower ranks of the military, but who knows how many of them really want Maduro gone?
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Feb 2, 2019 18:31
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Furia posted:Not that I’m aware of. Hell, I don’t even see it as being plausible except for rank and file Even if the military want to ditch Maduro I am sure a significant number of them would prefer to go down the road of a military coup than let someone outside their institution take charge.
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Feb 2, 2019 18:35
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Munin posted:Even if the military want to ditch Maduro I am sure a significant number of them would prefer to go down the road of a military coup than let someone outside their institution take charge. Not necessarily. To be at the level where that would behoove you, I imagine you would also be at the level where the amnesty law starts looking pretty good It’s a crapshoot, really
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Feb 2, 2019 18:37
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